Got A Ticket?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Some time ago, I questioned the authenticity of the Frank Alkire "Ticket" story. A number of people had something to say on the matter, including S.C., Aurum and the story, as told, by Thomas Glover.

Aurum had this to say:

[The "ticket" account of Waltz's demise comes from an even more prominant Arizonan than Jim Bark. Frank T. Alkire became a prominant Phoenix businessman and was instrumental in forming the Salt River canal system which included the construction of Roosevelt Dam. In 1891 Alkire was working days in the Phoenix National Bank and evenings at his brother (George) grocery store on Washington Street in downtown Phoenix. The Alkire grocery was located across the street from Julia Thomas bakery. Frankk Alkire was present and an eye witness to the events of Waltz's final hour. Alkire's account appeared in several news and magzine articles throughout the 1930's and 1940's. Frank Alkire lived into the 1950's and told this account to countless individuals over the years. A version of his account has appeared in at least one Dutchman book on the subject.]

Anyone interested in the history that surrounded Waltz's death might want to read this account carefully, and then read what Dr. Glover states in his book on pages 157 and 158. Dr. Glover writes that: "The account is quoted directly and in its entirety from the family archives." The "archives" he is speaking of are the "Roberts Family Archives".

The Frank Alkires that Dr. Glover is talking about, seems to be the son of Josiah Alkires, and a young schoolboy. Aurum seems to be talking about
the Frank T. Alkire who was a grown man at the time. His father's name was Josiah. I believe the proper spelling of the name is, Alkire.

Perhaps someone can clear up my confusion. Dr. Glover?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

Merry Christmas to all!

[novice]

Joe,

I want to ease into this subject and would like to stick to "documented records". I have read the past posts regarding this whole subject and this is my take.

The ticket story is "one" of the defining moments that divides modern day Dutchman Hunters into the Holmes or the Thomas/Petrasch camp. The subject has been filled with rancor in the past with the Holmes camp believing that an account by a man with Frank Alkire's background cannot be dismissed. In addition Dr. Glover suggests two other sources, Charles White and someone by the name of Tull. The Thomas/Petrasch camp believes the story is so incredulous that it can be dismissed almost out of hand.

Joe, I believe this is one fight you do have a dog in (When Pigs Fly over Phoenix)!

I have done quite a lot of research on the Alkire family and am certainly willing to share anything I have found but again I would caution against raising the rhetoric. I don't know how many Holmes supporters are still following the board or posting to it. I'm afraid many have moved on including Dr. Glover?

Josiah Alkire had Missouri roots and he and some of his family are buried in Kirkwood, Missouri.

I would like to start by asking a couple of questions.

Why did you get the impression that Frank Alkire was a young schoolboy?

The other question relates to the Phoenix National Bank. This really goes back to your Joe Deering post. I was rereading the Bark account from Corbin. He was talking to Chuning and wrote "I settled up with John and gave him an order on Goldman's Store, at Phoenix, as at that time there were no bankers." Is Bark correct? When was the first bank established in Phoenix?

One last comment; Aurum posted quite extensively on this subject and we should make sure we're not cherry picking his comments.

Regarding your question, I'm sure we are all talking about the same Frank Alkire.

Garry

[Jan]

Joe/Gary,

It is always nice to have FACTS, but when they do not exist or cannot be found we can only fall back on logic and reasoning.

I can’t offer any facts on the subject of Julia selling tickets for people to talk to Waltz on his deathbed, but I do have a strong opinion about it. First of all, it just doesn’t make sense. Julia knew Waltz had a secret, and she knew what it was. She also believed at the time that she was going to benefit from his secret. Some people have tried to paint an image of Julia as being Evil, Cruel, Greedy, etc… If she did possess any of these traits, (which I personally doubt) they would only add to her desire to keep people away from Waltz in his final hours. The fact that she allowed people to visit with Waltz in his final days and hours only stands in testimate to her sincerity and general trust in people. (Which cost her a small fortune in the end). I can easily imagine a small collection box in Julia’s store for people to make a donation to Waltz’s funeral expenses. Although it was not a major expense in those years, there were expenses for the wood for the coffin, someone digging the hole and the cemetery plot itself. There must have been a few people that made jestures in the form of small donations to help Julia with these expenses after visiting with Waltz and seeing that he was not going to last much longer. But selling tickets? I think that is an intentional misrepresentation of facts, started by someone that stood to gain financially from the spread of the rumor.

There has been a slander campaign against the character of Julia Thomas that started right about the time the 48 pounds of gold ore disappeared from under Waltz’s bed and continues to this day. In every case, the source of the unkind words seems to be tracable back to someone that wished to lessen the creditability of Julia Thomas for their own greedy purposes. Sims Ely and Jim Bark obviously had high opinions of Julia. If there had been any ticket selling going on I am sure they would have seen it or heard about it and made some kind of notation about it. There were a lot of other Phoenix citizens at the time that would have known if Julia was selling tickets and would have been offended by the practice as well. Why didn’t anyone else ever make an issue out of it? Like I said, it’s only my opinion, but it is based on solid logic and reasoning. There never was any ticket selling going on.

Just my humble opinion,

Jan

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

I am not sure who your "caution" was directed to, but I will be happy to not let my abrasive nature enter the discussion.

Page 158 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz"...By, Dr. Glover states:

"A schoolmate of Alkires told him that when he walked past the parlor early the next morning, Thomas and Schaffer were outside asking for donations to defray the cost of Waltz's funeral".

Dr. Glover's source is as good as it gets, and I assume Aurum's source is from the same place.

A good deal of time passed before this story was drug out of the family archives. Who knows what went into the writing or original reading of this document.

Jan,

I agree with every word in your post. I have said much the same as you have written many times.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[novice]

Joe

You are correct when you say that everything has been "said" many times!

I just think documents may exist that can shed additional light on the story and we might get closer to what really happened that night. Some questions I have.

Can we put Frank Alkire in Phoenix in the period when Jacob Waltz died?

Can we put George Alkire in Phoenix in the period when Jacob died?

Can we put Josiah Alkire in Phoenix in the period when Jacob died?

Can we put Albert Shaffer in Phoenix in the period when Jacob died?

Can we put Charles White in Phoenix in the period when Jacob died?

Who was Tull?

Was there a Bank in Phoenix when Jacob died or was Bark wrong? I know that saying Bark was wrong would be tough.

Did the Alkire's purchase the property the Grocery store was on? When?

If chronologies don't work, the stories usually don't work. If they do, it doesn't make the story true but it does at least make it plausible.

Where are the Newspaper articles that Aurum mentioned? (I would love to read them and see if there was any mention of "tickets")

I believe that these questions and a lot of others may be answered if we look. I suspect there are people out there that already have some of the answers.

I just don't see much point in jumping on Julia and Alkire "again".

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

The National Bank was established in Phoenix in 1878.

Good luck with Josiah Alkire. Here is what little I do know about the man:

Josiah was born around 1836 in St. Louis, MO He died in Kirkwood, MO
He married Lydia Heisler Tomlin, who was born Sept. 11, 1836 in Goshen, Cape May, NJ They were married on Dec. 27, 1864

Lidia died in 1926 in Phoenix, AZ She was buried with her husband in Kirkwood, MO

They had four children, all born in Kirkwood.Frank Tomlin Alkire was the first of three brothers, with a sister being born last. Frank was born in 1860 and arrived in Casa Grande on January 7, 1886.

Like all written history, there could be some mistakes in the above.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

All,

This was my conclusion the last time we discussed this story:

Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 8:57 am Post subject: Too much faith

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arum,

Thank you again.

I suppose I have placed too much faith in the Ely/Bark accounts. I always felt that they were close enough to the events and did enough research into the various stories, to supply us with a pretty fair picture of what took place, and who were the honest players in the LDM/Superstition Mountain legends. Judging their characters, from a distance of time and societal change, I feel they were men to be trusted with the task of telling the truth, as they knew it.

Frank Alkires story of the events surrounding Waltz's death would not have been a secret in the, relatively, small community of (1891) Phoenix.
It seems likely to me, that people offered money to Julia to spend a few minutes with the dying Waltz. That may have been hard for her to pass up, as it is unlikely he was aware of his surroundings. As I have said before, I doubt Waltz was saying much in the last hours of his life. It is more than likely that his lungs were full of fluid in those last hours, and he was totally focused (concious or unconcious) with forcing the smallest amount of oxygen into his lungs. That may or may not be how he died, but from the accounts of his drawn-out illness, it seems the likely scenario.

There have been a number of accounts written concerning the death of Jacob Waltz. While I have no doubts that what you have said was true, it is hard to fathom why no mention of the money changing events has ever been "hinted" at before. It's not like the "voodoo-like" atmosphere would not have made one hell of a story.

Your explanation is more than reasonable when it is applied to those citizens you speak of. It seems less reasonable when applied to those who did not have a problem with associating their own names and writings with the LDM and the Jacob Waltz story. It seems like a hard tale to pass up, especially in all of the books that were written up to now. From the description of the events, it had to be common knowledge in Phoenix.

None of this has any bearing on the truth or falsity of the story, but it does tend to raise the curiosity of inquiring minds.

Respectfully,

Joe

[novice]

Joe,

We may need to compare some of our references but below is some of the information I have. I will certainly share detailed references. I would have liked to have reviewed the Alkire collection but that seems a ways down the road so I have decided to proceed with what I have?

I agree that history frequently gets changed "one word at a time" until not much remains. You asked a couple of questions about "the ticket incident".

I suspect much of the information comes from the Alkire Collection at the Arizona State Museum (At least that's where it was in 1970). There can be little doubt that we have the correct Frank T. Alkire.

Your point is well taken about the reference of a schoolmate indicating a young Frank Alkire and you are also correct that the last name is Alkire. I had also badgered you a bit about the bank reference.

Some of my information regarding the Alkires is taken from "The Taming of the Salt" (1970), a collection of biographies of pioneers associated with the Salt River Project. I didn't have access to the book, only someone esle's transcription so there could be minor errors.

Frank Tomlin Alkire was born December of 1864 (Reference 1900 Census). He would have been 27 years old when Jacob Waltz died. Frank attended schools in St. Louis, Missouri and later went to Smith Academy there. I think we came safely dismiss the schoolmate term from the account. As you say "one word at a time".

I also did some research on early banking in Phoenix. I found that the Phoenix National Bank was formed in 1892. I have no reason to doubt this reference but I'm sure if it became necessary it could be confirmed. Since Waltz died in 1891, I feel we can say that Josiah Alkire was not associated with the Phoenix National Bank when Waltz died. In the biography of Frank Alkire there is a reference to Frank being associated with banking (I don't know how) and perhaps this is how the story originated?

Could it have been another bank?

Martin Kales, opened the Bank of Arizona in Prescott in 1877. He had with him Sol Lewis. In 1880, Kales and Lewis opened up a branch of the Bank of Arizona in Phoenix. In 1884 they opened a small cubical on East Washington Street about fifty feet east of Center Street, now Central Avenue. Later they got a charter from the government to operate as the National Bank of Arizona, having their banking quarters in the Cotton Block, on the southeast corner of Center Street and Washington Street. The bank was changed to The National Bank of Arizona in August 1887.

It seems there were banks in Phoenix in the time frame, so Bark was incorrect when he stated there were no banks at the time he was paying John Chuning.

I don't believe that Josiah Alkire was in the banking business in Phoenix but I'll save that for another post.

If we begin to get rid of the extra pieces of the puzzle that don't belong, I believe we can come closer to understanding or at least having an informed opinion about the story.

Garry

[novice]

Josiah Alkire was born December 25, 1818 in Virginia. He was one of the first California pioneers to reach Sacramento in 1849. Josiah made his stake in six months, and later settled down in St. Louis to establish a wholesale grocery business.

On December 27, 1864 Josiah married Lydia Tomlin in Sangamon County, Illinois. They had four sons two of whom died young and are buried along side their parents in Kirkwood, Missouri. The other two were Frank and George who eventually both ended up in Arizona.

Josiah lived in St. Louis during the Civil War and he worked for the Christian Commission", a prototype of the Red Cross. It was there he met Lydia who was an enlisted nurse in the Union Camps in St. Louis and Decatur, Illinois. He was the founder of a large wholesale grocery and commission house in St. Louis (ALKIRE & CO.).

We can track the movement of Josiah through the St. Louis City Directories. Even though the Alkire's left the St. Louis area about 1887 they retained their wholesale grocery business and the St. Louis City Directory recorded their residence even though they no longer lived in St. Louis. In the 1888 and 1889 Directory Josiah listed his residence as Phoenix. In 1890 he and Lydia were living in Los Angeles and in 1891 thru 1895 they were living in Pomona, California. Josiah died February 4, 1895 in Pomona and his body was returned to St. Louis for burial.

Family:
Josiah Alkire (b. Dec. 25, 1818 in VA. – d. Feb 4, 1895 in Pomana, CA.)
Married (Dec 27, 1864 in Sagamon County, Illinois)
Lydia Tomlin (b. Sep 11, 1836 in N. J – d. Oct 22, 1925 in Maricopa County, AZ.)
Frank T. Alkire (b. Dec 1864 in MO. – d. Jan 26, 1962 in Maricopa County, AZ.)
Wilber B. Alkire (b. Nov 2, 1867 in MO. – d. Jan 17, 1874 in MO.)
George C. Alkire (b. Abt 1870 in MO. – d. .........)
Leslie S. Alkire (b. Apr 22, 1874 in MO. – d. Oct 6, 1877 in MO.)

The birth date of Frank Alkire warrants further research (Marriage and Birth don't agree) and it is suspected the census may be in error by a year (1865)? Since he didn't die until 1962, he doesn't appear in the Arizona Death Records.

References:
1. St. Louis City Directories
2. United States Census
3. Root's Web WorldConnect Project
4. Tombstone; Oak Hill Cemetery, Kirkwood, Missouri
5. Arizona Death Records
6. "The Tomlin Family" by Rachel Tomlin Ramkin. The Torch Press, Cedar Rapids Iowa. (1932)
7. "The Taming of the Salt" a collection of biographies of pioneers who contributed significantly to water development in the Salt River Valley. [Edward H. Peplow Jr., editor] (1970)

Josiah Alkire was in Phoenix by 1888-1889 and that appears to be about the same time the Alkire Grocery was established? He had apparently moved to California by 1890 and there seems to be no reason to suspect he was pesonally involved in the day to day operation of the Grocery or a Bank when Jacob Waltz died (1891). From the family history, Josiah retired to Pomana, California. Lydia continued to live in alone California until at least 1920 after which she returned to Phoenix to be near her sons.

Unless additional information is found, it is reasonable to question whether Josiah Alkire was physically present in Phoenix when Waltz died. This certainly doesn't answer the ticket question but it may get us closer to the truth. Hopefully further research on Frank and George may provide additional information?

Garry

[novice]

I'm repeating a portion of one of Aurum's posts.

This is Aurum's Post: Sat May 15, 2004

I knew Frank Alkire's daughter Alma quite well, she married Phoenix attorney Frank Snell. I read the letters and stories Frank Alkire wrote of his experiences in the Arizona territory on paper in his own handwriting and the Waltz account is basically as reported. On the night Waltz died Frank Alkires brother George ran a grocery business on Washington street almost directly across from Julia's bakery. Saturday evenings in Phoenix were always busy with a crowd of men milling around in the downtown district. Frank would often assist his brother at the grocery store. After stopping to pay respects himself, he witnessed the events of the evening from the grocery across the street long into that October night. An astounding fact that few historians know is that Dick Holmes had recently moved into Phoenix with his wife and stepson and was living on (Jackson) Street just two houses west of Julia's boarding house. Holmes had secured employment with George Alkire at the grocery and the night of Waltz's death Holmes was also witness to the events of the evening from the grocery across the street. Dick Holmes worked most of his life in the grocery trade in Phoenix.

Years ago when I lived on the open range north of New River. Arizona my home was situated on the old Triangle Bar ranch, Frank Alkires ranch. My land included the old New River 1 room school site and adjacent to the New River Stage station that Frank Alkire helped build. I hosted the Alkire family there on a few occasions.

The only discrepancy That I can see in the account is I don't believe Julia ever actually sold tickets to visit with Waltz. I believe the account said Julia accepted "donations" to go back and sit with Waltz for a few moments, pay your respects , and if Waltz should happen to blurt out any information concerning his gold it would be a plus for the visitor.

No mention of a schoolmate!

No mention of Josiah Alkire!

No mention of the Phoenix National Bank or any other bank for that matter!

No assertion that "tickets" were being sold! (In fact the "ticket" portion is pretty much in line with what Joe and Jan have suggested above.)

The above account seems to me to be to be a good starting point?

A few months ago I found the Arizona Birth and Death Web Site and I was browsing the Alkire entries. One item that caught my eye was the birth of Frank Alkire's son, Josiah (Jay) Frank on January 28, 1891 in California. If Frank was living in California at the time, and since it was only about 9 months until Waltz died, could I be sure he was even in Phoenix? And even if he were in Phoenix, he would have been a relative newcomer. That scenario soon proved incorrect, however it did get me started.

From the Frank Alkire biography in "The Taming of the Salt"

"The night he arrived it must have been difficult for Franklin Tomlin Alkire to believe Arizona had a water problem. The 21-year-old son of one of St. Louis' great merchants, Alkire climbed down from the warm comfort of a Southern Pacific car at Casa Grande to be greeted by a driving rain.
The date was January 7, 1886.

As the rain poured from a darkened sky, Alkire splashed through the mud and water to find shelter and await the stagecoach that would take him to the Silver King Mine.

The storm continued as the stage pulled out. Not one of the crowd that usually gathered for arrivals and departures was present. Only those who had to be, were out. Those.......and a band of robbers who figured it would take more than a winter storm to keep them from the $17,500 mine payroll which the stage carried.

Alkire tried to join in defending the coach but he couldn't find his Winchester, which had been packed inside. As it turned out, the robbers were equally frustrated. "They took the big green Wells Fargo box," Alkire related at his 50th wedding anniversary. "But it was a dummy. The money was in an old canned-beef box."

From the mine he traveled to Mesa, this time in a vegetable wagon. His next stop was Tempe, and finally, Phoenix.

"The Salt River was booming, in flood," Alkire recalled. "The ferry service was held up and you couldn't get across the river. We were stuck there a week; finally got across in a rowboat after the river subsided a little."

This account puts Frank Alkire in Arizona by Jan 1886. (Joe noted this date in his posts also) What I find interesting about this story is the flooded Salt and the Stage Robbery. I'm sure that both of these items would have appeared in the newspapers of the day. If anyone can point me to these articles, I would be appreciative! The reason; If Frank got all of this right, it would certainly lend credence to the details of the other stories he related.

Enough,

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

Wow! That's digging deep. Good work.

As you read a little more, you come to this:

"The answer, apparently, was to buy a ranch already stocked, and Alkire found just what he wanted at New River. the Triangle Bar Ranch had the only natural spring on the road from Phoenix to Prescott, and it became one of the largest ranches in Central Arizona: 55 miles long and 25 miles wide.

Three years after his arrival in Arizona, he went to San Diego, Cal. for his health. It was there he again met Asenath Phelps, a girl he had known in St. Louis. They were married on April 9, 1889. He brought his bride home to his ranch in New River, Arizona.

After the couple's second child was born, Alkire decided to move his family into town, and for the next 11 years he and his brother, George, ran a mercantile business in the city." (emphasis in bold by Joe)

Tight schedual, but quite possible. The first question that comes to mind is....What is the birth date of Frank Alkire's second child? You might also wonder how long he waited, after that child's birth, to make his move into the city.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[novice]

Joe, your right on track!

Again, I wish I had immediate access to the Alkire Collection and "The Taming of the Salt" to ensure I'm not making some missteps!

There is an apparent errant date in the account I have?

From "The Taming of the Salt"

He [Frank Alkire] spent the winter of 1874 in California with his father and stopped for several months in Texas before setting out for Arizona.

His first sight of Phoenix [January, 1886] was restricted by the abundant cottonwood trees and he had to ask directions to find the business district. There were about 2,500 persons in the city at that time.

I believe this date should be 1884 or 1885.

It appears to me that Frank had reached the age where he wanted to begin moving out on his own and convinced his father to set him up in the ranching business. They may have looked in both California and Texas for ranching opportunities before Frank came to Arizona. The thing that is surprising to me is the fact that a twenty one year old "tenderfoot" from St. Louis, thought he could be a successful rancher in Arizona. For that matter, how was he able to convince his father, Josiah to invest in ranching?

Upon reaching Phoenix in 1886 Frank apparently left shortly thereafter. The chronologies are my best guess and certainly not set in stone! Any adjustments are welcome!

Again from "The Taming of the Salt".

The Missouri native was interested in ranching and went to the Tonto Basin area where he hoped to get his start. The cabin he built there was later acquired by Zane Gray as a wilderness home.

Although Geronimo was on the warpath and Indian raids were always imminent, it was not this danger that forced Alkire from the Tonto Creek country. It was the high cost of stocking spread.

Frank was involved in the Tonto Basin area at least long enough to construct a cabin but he appears to have given up on that enterprise and was back in the Phoenix area by at least 1888.

It was probably during this time frame that Frank was acquiring the New River Ranch. Much of this chronology could be refined through deed records.

I am listing some "hard" dates as we move closer to the time period in which we are interested.

1888 Apr 18 Frank Alkire Registered to Vote in the Great Maricopa Register (Residence given was Phoenix)

1889 Apr 9 Frank Alkire and Asenath Phelps were married in San Diego, California

1890 Aug 13 Frank Alkire Registered to Vote in the Great Maricopa Register (Residence given was New River)

1891 Jan 28 Josiah (Jay) Frank Alkire was born in California (Son of Frank and Asenath)

This is where Joe's post picks up the story.

After Frank and Asenath's marriage they returned to the New River Ranch. We know that was their residence in August of 1890. Apparently when Asenath was about to give birth to their first child, she returned to California. (Probably because she could receive much better care there than on a ranch at New River?) Whatever the case, she gave birth to a son they named "Jay" Alkire in California at the beginning of 1891.

From Joe's post;

After the couple's second child was born, Alkire decided to move his family into town, and for the next 11 years he and his brother, George, ran a mercantile business in the city." (emphasis in bold by Joe)

The following information comes from the Tombstone inscriptions in the Alkire Family plot in Kirkwood Missouri.

1892 Oct 20 Asenath P. Alkire was born in Arizona (Daughter of Frank and Asenath)

1893 Apr 16 Asenath P. Alkire died in Arizona and was buried in Missouri

In the Oak Hill Cemetery, Kirkwood, Mo., Josiah Alkire had purchased a large plot and two of he and Lydia's sons were already buried there. When Asenath died her body was also returned there for burial.

From the 1900 Census, the Alkire's have two children (Josiah "Jay" and Ruth). Asenath recorded that she had had 3 children of which two were living. It seems clear that the couple's second child was the daughter Asenath P.

From the above it appears that Frank Alkire did not move his family back to Phoenix until at least late 1892. This would have been about a year after Waltz's death.

Looking on a modern day map the distance from New River to downtown Phoenix is about 32 miles. I suspect this would be close to the distance that Frank would have had to travel from his ranch in New River? I doesn't appear that this would be a daily commute in 1891!

This certainly doesn't preclude the possibility that Frank Alkire could not have been in town the Saturday night that Jacob died.

What it does "seem" to show is that Frank would have been only an "occasional" visitor to Phoenix in the time frame preceding Jacob's death?

The next major research step seems to be history of the Alkire Grocery in Phoenix and George A. Alkire. (I have little detailed information on George or the Grocery business and any help would be appreciated!)

From the 1900 Census George gave his birth date as May 1871. He would have only been 20 years old when Waltz died. He apparently was also managing the grocery?

Garry

[novice]

I recently found Frank T. Alkire registering to vote on September 30, 1892 in the Great Maricopa Resister.

From the preceding documents I believe we can say that the night Waltz died, the "residence" of Josiah Alkire was in Pomona, California and the "residence" of Frank Alkire was at New River Ranch. It's not impossible that one or even both could have been in Phoenix that Saturday night. Just something to ponder.

What is not clear to me is who actually owned the Arizona properties, Josiah or his sons.

From the Arizona Republican March 9, 1894 we find:

"A foreclosure suit was began in district court yesterday by Joseph Alkire vs. R.E. Farrington."

This would be our Josiah Alkire and would indicate that even though he was living in California he still had a hand in the business operations in Arizona. Perhaps Frank and George did not obtain title to the properties until the death of Josiah in 1895?

I would like to find the probate of Josiah Alkire's Estate. Perhaps someone can help me since he died in California but seems to have had property in other states. Where would the probate of Josiah's estate be conducted?

One other item that I'm having trouble with is the location of the cabin that Frank Alkire built that was later used as a wilderness home for Zane Gray. I'm sure someone can help me with the Arizona geography?

From "The Taming of the Salt"
The home in Tonto Basin, which he sold to author Zane Gray, was the only house that is, or could be in 4 states simultaneously. This is not hard to find on a map, being the only place in America where 4 states meet.

Is the Four Corners Area part of the Tonto Basin? Help!

Garry

[Roger]

The cabin that Zane Grey owned that was North of Payson, AZ, just below the Rim was burned down in a large fire about 7 yrs ago. Think the fire was named the "Dude" fire (could be wrong). A conservation group was trying to rebuild it a few years ago - don't think it has been done yet. Here is the web site of the Foundation that is pursuing this goal:

http://phoenix.about.com/gi/dynamic/off ... cabin.org/

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

I have been through Four Corners many, many times. Great drive through a lot of nothing. There is a monument at the exact spot.

It is nowhere near the Tonto Basin. Find Tec Nos Pas on your map. It is the closest town to Four Corners.

If you can find Punkin Center, you will be in the Tonto Basin.

All of the above is from memory, not so good, so check my facts.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[novice]

Roger,

Thanks for the great link! It clears up the Zane Grey's cabin location and when it was built but now the story from the "Taming of the Salt" makes little sense.

According to a newspaper article linked from the Zane Grey Cabin Foundation Web Site;

Wolfe said. "We have a complete set of blueprints and design specifications and will build the replica of Grey's 1922 cabin next to the Rim Country Museum.

The original cabin went through three major phases, Wolfe said.
"The first was the original cabin when Zane Grey contracted with Babe Haught to build him a hunting lodge," Wolfe said. "He wanted a log cabin, but the Haughts figured being an easterner he'd prefer an eastern-style house."

I assumed that Carl Porter put together the biography of Frank and much of his information came from the Frank Alkire Collection at the Arizona State Museum.

It looks like the Alkire story is 35 years too early and certainly nowhere near the four corners.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

This is the link to the "Taming of the Salt" Story

http://www.alkire.org/gen/stories/frank.html

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

I believe the Greys had a place, or places, on the Mogollon Rim. Should be easy to find out, if you have the time. Got no time right now.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Roger]

Zane Grey built his cabin just below the Mogollon Rim NE of Payson, AZ, arourn 1920. After his death it was turned into Zane Grey Lodge with some additional buildings. The original cabin and the others were destroyed in the Dude Fire in 1991.

The original site can be reached by taking HW260 East of Payson, turning North at the Tonto Creek Campground and then going to the detailed location contained on the below Terra Server web page:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=34. ... ayer=DRG25

The site is in the lower left hand corner of this topo map. Hope this meets your needs.

Happy Hunting!!

Roger

[Roger]

Need to correct a date in the above posting - the Dude Fire occured in 1990 and not 1991.

Roger

[zentull]

I saw the cabin before and after the dude fire years ago. All that remained afterwards was a water pump, that had not worked for years until after the fire. They shut down the site after investors purchased the area and began developing around it. That was a shame since it had some historical value and the host would set you out in front of his cabin to watch a video of the history with a bowl of candy. I got some pictures of the site I will try to post up with the others in the member area.

[Joe Ribaudo]

The Grey's owned a lot of homes in a number of different states. Zane Grey was a notorious womanizer and probably had a gal at each of the homes. His wife just ignored it all.

Seems to me that the question is not concerning the home below Mogollon Rim, but if the story of his buyin the Alkire cabin has any truth in it. If not, one wonders about the rest of the history of the family. Was the Zane Grey story confabulated by Alkire? In other words, did he stretch the truth on occasion? That would be interesting to know.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

I know quite a bit of the actual records and memorabilia concerning the site that were on hand were destroyed in the fire. The guy who took care of everything first hand lived on the site until he was bounced out. He could be a good source for anyone in Payson if he is still around. Last I heard he was in town and still had something to do with the collection. I dont remember much of the video, last time I was there was around 1995.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

Here is a little history on Zane Grey:

"Lee Doyle, professional guide from Flagstaff, brought Grey to Payson in 1918. The party of a dozen men camped on the
main street on a site now occupied by the Woman's Club building

Grey settled first at the Anderson Lee "Babe" Haught ranch under the Rim. Guiding him on hunting trips, the Haughts"
became prototypes for characters in his novels. In 1920 Grey acquired three acres of the Haught ranch and instructed Babe
Haught to build a cabin after he left for his home in California.

[From "The Taming of the Salt"
The home in Tonto Basin, which he sold to author Zane Gray, was the only house that is, or could be in 4 states simultaneously. This is not hard to find on a map, being the only place in America where 4 states meet.]

(Emphasis in bold by Joe)

Seems like we have a slight discrepancy here.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

It's not much of a secret that I doubt the "ticket" story. Others have said that Frank Alkire had no reason to make up the story. Perhaps this quote of a little "Aurum" history, could have some relevance:

"An astounding fact that few historians know is that Dick Holmes had recently moved into Phoenix with his wife and stepson and was living on (Jackson) Street just two houses west of Julia's boarding house. Holmes had secured employment with George Alkire at the grocery and the night of Waltz's death Holmes was also witness to the events of the evening from the grocery across the street. Dick Holmes worked most of his life in the grocery trade in Phoenix."

Since Dick Holmes was working for Alkire, and Dick was accused of stealing the gold from under the Waltz deathbed, it makes some sense that a story that would cast a bad light on Julia Thomas might find favor with the locals and there was a connection between the two men. After all.....she was a "negro", unmarried and a woman. Just a short step away from riding a broom under a full moon.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

All,

Just how important is the truth regarding the Alkire "ticket" story? By itself, probably not very important. The destruction of the reliability of the Julia Thomas "facts" might have more than a passing effect on how, many, Dutch Hunters down through the years have focused their searches.

Dick Holmes was on the ground early, and just may have done a great deal to muddy the waters for those who followed. Many of the clues may have been made up, using landmarks on the ground for authenticity, to lead others on a wild goose chase.

There seems little doubt that he stole the gold from under the Waltz deathbed. Until his own death, I imagine, Brownie, also would have continued to lay down as much of a smoke screen as he could....always believing he would still make one more trip into the mountains and find the mine.

At some point in time, the truth was no longer an option.

The connection between Dick Holmes and Frank Alkire seems like a reasonable place to begin doubting the Alkire story. Other than stealing a dead man's gold, from under the cooling body and thus robbing Julia Thomas, Dick Holmes was also an upstanding citizen.

Sound reasonable to anyone else?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo