Are You On THE Trail

[Joe Ribaudo]

In your search, does the Military Trail play a part? If yes, does it pertain to the area of the mine or only the trail leading you to the Superstitions?

From the mine, do you believe you will be able to see a (or the) Military Trail?

How will you recognize a Military Trail in the Supes? I think someone once said there were signs. Anyone know what the signs might be?

Do you believe you have found a Military Trail and walked it? Do you believe it was the trail Waltz described? Which one? Could both trails be the same one?

Is the Military Trail part of the Stone Maps? Just threw that in for the Stone Map fans.

Respectfully,

Joe

[murphy]

Joe
I think the Military Trail does play a part in the search, but deciding which trail is the problem. I am trying to plot the 3 Military trails from the 1867 map in Dr. Glover's book. Do you know where the Frog Tanks are? I could not locate this site on my topo map. I assume the name has changed or maybe doesn't exist anymore.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Murphy,

I am in Oklahoma right now. Don't believe I have ever been to Frog Tanks.

I tried to form my questions in such a way that no one would feel threatened by giving an opinion. That, obviously did not work.

It seems to me, that you are going about this in reverse. Trying to figure out which of the Military Trails from Dr. Glover's book is the "LDM' trail, will not work.

The best way, in my opinion, is to focus on an area using all of the other clues, and then look around for a Military Trail. It may or may not be shown in Dr. Glover's book. I would just guess that there may be a few such trails that are not shown on that particular map.

The "Military Trail" clue should not be at the top of the food chain, once again, in my opinion. I believe it comes from a questionable source.

I was really trying to see how many people thought it was important. Not just as a possible clue, but in their own search. I am fairly certain I have found THE Military Trail, assuming the clue is factual as opposed to pure fiction, but as with all things Dutchman, it could be coincidence. Many other stories and clues brought me to my own conclusion, as to the location of the general area of the LDM.

I don't believe there is anything left at the location, but it would be interesting to take a look. I will leave that to my partner.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Gene Reynolds]

Joe -

I hope this doesn'y make the issue more confusing.............

When Glenn tried to figure that out - my understanding was that for some reason he believed it to be the old trail on the Western boundery of Bluff Springs ( or between te Needle and it). I agreed with him for awhile... In all my research on it,,, I found 3 different maps (mostly old Goverment) out of many that told of 3 different so called "Old Military Trails" only they didn't say old - they just were marked Military trail. In the same range - one being the one that Glenn thought it was. (Frankly I dis-agree with Glenn since then.) The oldest one I cound find called that on any map - was not that one but somewhere else in the area. It's been a long time and I don't remember for sure where it was and will not guess at it. (That would make matters worse)

At this time we did not use computers. If you are in OK City at the moment - the local libray there is where a good amount of this info came from. If you are close to the Fairgroungs - right of the Interstate , Melba = Glenns wife appears to have taken over the old office building of Glenns and I believe is living in it. I will look up the Ph. Number and address if you like. It may be an interesting stop for you. Glenns son is still there somewhere close as well and he went on some of these trips into the Sups..

I hope I didn't add to the confusion

Have a good trip.........

Gene

[Joe Ribaudo]

Gene,

It's good to see you still kicking this thing around. I would, of course, love to meet Glenn's wife or son. It's just not my style to intrude on folks by dredging up old memories. You are kind to make the offer. Thank you.

I will be ok with the stuff you provide. I don't know that I need to know much more about Glenn than what you provided in Borrego 13. It took awhile but I managed to get it all printed out.

If the Military Trail clues are not just a bit of fiction, I believe I know where the Dutchman's is. Since there are a number of such trails in the Supes, everyone gets to place their favorite location close to one. Like many of the LDM clues, there are dozens of places that can be made to fit the bill.

Why do I think my trail is more likely than any of the others? Because of the number of major players I can positivly place on or very close to the trail, mostly on. There are stories, that are not well known, which also point out the correct trail.

Glenn may have been closer than a lot of people think. Time may tell.

Take care friend,

Joe

[azdave35]

did magil spend all his time looking in the bluff springs area?..or did he figure out he was wrong and search else where in the supes?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Dave,

Don't know if there is any way to say Glenn was right or wrong. It may be that he was on the money, and there was just nothing left to take.

Perhaps the same can be said for the cave of gold bars. An old friend of your's may have been set up to find that treasure just outside the Wilderness boundry and then crossed, by his "partners", with nothing left to take. He spent a lot of years looking for a treasure that was (likely) planted for him to find.

Even if there is nothing left to take out of the Supes, we are all still reaping the rewards of the search. Making your way into the high country and taking in views that will never be spent. There seems to be little doubt that Waltz's pit and tunnel is actually hiding somewhere in the mountains. Does it really matter if you find it with or without gold?

For me, it has all been about the search. Forty-seven years of trying to find a dream. Expectations, success and failure. Always knowing that you are so very close. What would we have dreamed about if we found what we were searching for?

Respectfully,

Joe

[walker12]

[quote="murphy"]Joe
I think the Military Trail does play a part in the search, but deciding which trail is the problem. I am trying to plot the 3 Military trails from the 1867 map in Dr. Glover's book. Do you know where the Frog Tanks are? I could not locate this site on my topo map. I assume the name has changed or maybe doesn't exist anymore.[/quote]

AFAIK frog tanks are at frog springs up by Windy Pass on the walk into Reavis Ranch.

http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/i ... ontype=DMS

[TGH]

Goodbye

[Gene Reynolds]

To tell you about Glenn and how he reasoned out things - is not that complicated.

First of all - Glenn owned a detective agency. That does not mean that all agencies of this type either know what they are doing or are any good. Glenns was though. He and pinkerton and another used to have lunch together all the time. They worked cases together at times. Glenn was good and very strick. If something didn't seem right to him he would bust bubbles around the office and get it done right. He was a pain in the a-- at times but he was a perfectionest.

Glenn did not go into Arizona unprepared. He studied well and for years and was well prepared for anything. Even the unsuspected he was prepared for - such as - had world war 3 started in there - he was prepared.

Glenn (like myself) would never have gone there had he not had enough information to give him more direction than you might assume. Not all is told in his book - nor mine - there are always things you keep to yuourself for whatever the reason.

When Glenn started in Arizona - it was more to get the lay of the land and see if what he had made sense. Each trip he found out more until he decided that Bluff Springs was the right place. At one time I agreed with him on the area and hanging over the side to find it. I still think you will have to hang over the side to find it - I am not sure it is Bluff Springs though. Do not go by my opinions though because I droped out of that part a long time ago and want no more to do with it. The map I have here could just be a mess that Ruth or son made however, should it be valid then it shows a possible mine that is high up and you would most likely have to hang over the side of it to get to the mine. Who knows -

In conclusion = Glenn ended up chosing Bluff Spings because the old military trail did play an important part in some of the clues. He went by the oldest maps he could find and they were made by the military themselves - not the locals. Glenn deserves more credit for his actions than he sometimes gets. Just because he was a - - - - at times doesn't mean he was stupid - quite the opposite - he was a brilliant man.

Gene

[azdave35]

i'll agree with you on the fact that glen was no dummy.....what i was wondering is.....after glen found out the mine on bluff springs was played out...did he stay in the bluff springs area and search for the mine ...or did he drift to other areas after he found out the mine was dry?.....he found that mine in 1966.....from what i have learned about him..he was still searching for the mine till the day he died....a few years back...that leaves about 30 years ....i just wondered if he ever strayed from bluff springs

[bill711]

Boys, Boys, Boys; There are maps and there are maps! BUT do you have an old silver mine map? Do you have an old gold mine map? The only way that you can tell the tale is by following it to its END or the X. The spanish were mining in the sup,s the mexicans were mining in the sup,s for how long? Hell who know,s? SO If you have a map that does not make it the ONE-the ACE of spades! The Lost Dutchmans Mine. The supes were worked reworked many times how many? Who knows! So do not get exited if your map leads you to a dry hole. There are many such dryholes in the sup,s bill

[Gene Reynolds]

Glenn stayed with Bluff Springs - He always felt it was there. Even while I was in California he had a small crew going to Arizona long after his book was done - he finally either gave up or his occupation and family life took away his spare time and Glenn was not getting any healthier. Sometimes John Lee would go or Glenns Son or A guy I had never met - I think his name was Micheal Lazy or lasie. Glenn never lost interest and was always thinking about both projects California and Arizona. As bad as he wanted to join me in California he couldn't due to the office work load - by the time he said he probably could join me, the temperature where I was at was already in the 100's. Glenn at this time was no longer able to handle these extremes. He seemed to feel as though - the right one was always right around the corner - just a few more feet - it has to be there!

I wish I could give you my honest opinion about the whole thing but I did not investigate the Arizona project in any great detail - only California.
What I know is this...............

There was a great deal of investigations by a great number of people and there must have been a valid reason why all of them continued on - including myself. Most of us found to much fact to give it a toss. There are many unanswered questions that will one day be answered. If the whole area were blown to hell - someone would say - it had to be somewhere else.! Glenn may have been very close to it - if you are using logic. On the other hand he may have been miles away - according to others. I think all the clues you are ever going to find are already before you. Other than the Peralta Book that is still out there, That is the only thing left with clues in it. Find the book - and you will find out a history of the Peraltas and perhaps much more about the mine.........

Gene

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

I have camped in places that were a "cakewalk" to get to. I have also camped in a spot that had just enough space for a tent and rocky fire ring. Cliff to the front of the tent and cliff to the back. I have also camped on ridges with a backpack and slept on the ground in a sleeping bag.

My changes in elevation from camp to search area have numbered in the thousands of feet, usuallly, to hundreds of feet. We always made our own trails. There have been times when the rest of the team refused to follow me as I made climbs I should not have.

No doubt a fast tracking stock broker from Long Island would have found some of my adventures a bit tame, but I have found myself hanging from a small bush with hundreds of feet of pure air between me and a landing on occassion.

I have been alone in the mountains with lightning streaking across the landscape and the rain bitting my face like hail. When with others, they have always been people I could trust. Trust would be knowing they would cover my back in any situation. Trust would be knowing that if I told them a secret or something I did not want to be public knowledge, they would carry it to their grave. You can't buy partners like that. Stockbroker might find all that hard to understand.

Being a Westerner can mean two things: It can be a place where you live and it can be a way that you live. The latter is the one that counts. Moving to Arizona is only the first half. The other half may come in time, in your case I doubt it.

Good luck,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Dave and Gene,

I never heard of Glenn looking anywhere else, once he lit on Bluff Spring Mountain. I did hear that members of his original team searched that mountain long after it was all over. I believe that others who were somehow connected to Glenn (related to the original team) are still searching Bluff Spring Mountain. It's nice to hear from someone like Gene that Glenn never gave up on his dream.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Joe; Did you look for the dutchmans mine when you were riding the lightning around the supes?? bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

Surface arcs are pretty unpredictable, so I was not looking around for any pits.

I have never actually looked for the LDM while in the Superstitions, except for the time I spent with Uncle Chuck, and there was no looking involved there.

I have speculated on where it might be over the years, but never spent a single day, on the ground, searching for Jake's mine/cache. No doubt Peter will jump in here, calling me a liar, without mentioning me by name, but it's the truth.

We have had a great visit here with the kids, spending the fourth on Oologah Lake and watching a nice fireworks display. We hauled our WaveVentures out and gave them to the kids, so anyone I invited to spend some time with us and get a ride on the lake, can cancel that plan.

Leaving for St. Joseph in the morning.

Respectfully,

Joe

[hound dog]

St Joseph? MO by chance?

[Joe Ribaudo]

H.D.,

No, not by chance, on purpose. My sister and brother in law live there. They have been to my place a number of times, so I couldn't get this close without paying them a visit.

I will check the site when we get there.

Respectfully,

Joe

[armchair]

Mr. Ribaudo,

I have always found your posts to be interesting. However, I was confused by your post because it seems to say the cave of gold bars is outside the Wilderness boundry:

"Perhaps the same can be said for the cave of gold bars. An old friend of your's may have been set up to find that treasure just outside the Wilderness boundry and then crossed, by his "partners", with nothing left to take. He spent a lot of years looking for a treasure that was (likely) planted for him to find."

In a previous string I interpreted what you wrote as that you had been told by your uncle that the cave of gold bars was on Bluff Spring Mountain.

Are there two caves where gold bars have been found??? I'm obviously confused. Can you set me straight?

You have also given another interesting piece of information:

"I never heard of Glenn looking anywhere else, once he lit on Bluff Spring Mountain. I did hear that members of his original team searched that mountain long after it was all over. I believe that others who were somehow connected to Glenn (related to the original team) are still searching Bluff Spring Mountain. It's nice to hear from someone like Gene that Glenn never gave up on his dream."

It sounds like you have had recent contact with members of Mr. Magill's original team. Did they ever talk about the tunnel described in his book? It is fascinating to me that in subsequent years, no one has reported finding that tunnel again.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Armchair,

Sorry you were confused.

First of all, there are two cave of gold bars stories. One is the Bob Brady story on Bluff Spring Mountain. My guess is that Brady sent them to the wrong side of Needle Canyon on purpose. If you guys look just north of Weaver's Needle but not on Black Top, I think you will be in the correct area. If anyone finds anything, you owe me big time. The people who searched with Uncle Chuck, really did a good job on that search. Chuck had Al Morrow continue looking for the cave, and Al eventually called my Aunt Maxine and told her he had found the cave. He described it and said two more gold bars had been removed. When Chuck got home and Maxine told him the story, he rode out to Al's. Al denied he had called Maxine and said any of the things I just related. She was not a liar.

Chuck was also on the Harry LaFrance search. You can read that story in Bob Ward's book.

I did not say that either cave was outside the Wilderness Area. What I did say was that I believed that the treasure that Dave's friend found, may have been planted outside the Wilderness Area. In other words, it may have been removed from the cave and moved outside the Wilderness boundry. Dave would understand what I was saying. If he wants to elaborate the story of his friend, that's for him to decide, not me.

I knew no one from Glenn's team. What I heard was stories from people who may or may not have known the true facts. I think I made it plain that it was something I had heard, not something I knew for a fact. I know for a fact that there are people flying into the mountains and landing on the south end of Bluff Spring Mountain. It happened half a dozen times one night while we were camped in the mountains.

Sorry again, but after rereading the post I don't know that I would change it.

For our friends who know Carolyn, she went into the hospital this morning.

She is doing fine now, and we will probably spring her tomorrow and head for home. Scared the hell out of me.

Respectfully,

Joe

[azdave35]

hey joe...i understood what you were talking about....if someone wants any further info on the bars that were found outside the wilderness..i'll be glad to tell the story but not here on the forum

[Grayhair]

Hi AZDave,

you have a PM. Thanks Grayhair

[Joe Ribaudo]

Murphy and Walker,

Joe
I think the Military Trail does play a part in the search, but deciding which trail is the problem. I am trying to plot the 3 Military trails from the 1867 map in Dr. Glover's book. Do you know where the Frog Tanks are? I could not locate this site on my topo map. I assume the name has changed or maybe doesn't exist anymore.

"AFAIK frog tanks are at frog springs up by Windy Pass on the walk into Reavis Ranch."

Do you guys believe that the Frog Tanks shown on Dr. Glover's "Military Map" are anywhere near Reavis Ranch? If not, why do you think the ones shown are placed where they are?

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

All,

Just a short note on accuracy for old maps.

While they can be wonderfully accurate, considering the times, they can also be woefully inaccurate at times. The "Frog Tanks" may be such a case of inaccuracy.

Respectfully,

Joe