Bill 
Three in one
Three in one
Jesse; The only time that I know of that the Holmes and Roberts met the Jake; Was when the Jake went up to Holm,s and Robert,s in the middle of the phinix street and told them he would kill them if they ever tried to follow him again. This was written word from the Holm,s own mouth! Back then when a man followed you in a sneaky manner He was going todo you harm or injury! Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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The New Name
The Peter,
I think you should keep this moniker, it flows well.
I have another description of how to get into the Superstitions, and to a specific place, but don't want to infringe on anyone elses input.
I would think the only way your exercise would actually be viable, would be to give the instructions to a couple of city folk and see if they can make it.
Once you have pointed out the correct starting place, I think they would have a good chance, depending on the landmarks. Waltz did a pretty good job, and Bick did even better.
Are you Apache yet? You know, the Apache used to believe that everyone was Apache, Same story for the Yavapais. It's amazing how some of the Native American mythology matches Christianity. Everyone from the same source.
Respectfully,
Joe
I think you should keep this moniker, it flows well.
I have another description of how to get into the Superstitions, and to a specific place, but don't want to infringe on anyone elses input.
I would think the only way your exercise would actually be viable, would be to give the instructions to a couple of city folk and see if they can make it.
Once you have pointed out the correct starting place, I think they would have a good chance, depending on the landmarks. Waltz did a pretty good job, and Bick did even better.
Are you Apache yet? You know, the Apache used to believe that everyone was Apache, Same story for the Yavapais. It's amazing how some of the Native American mythology matches Christianity. Everyone from the same source.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Dots
Jesse,
I am begining to see how you are connecting the dots between Dick Holmes and Jacob Waltz.
Waltz said "if you follow me again, according to Brownie, I will kill you" and Dick, having a strong aversion to dying, decided to end his Waltz tracking days.
In a strange way, that's kind of a symbiotic relationship.
Respectfully,
Joe
I am begining to see how you are connecting the dots between Dick Holmes and Jacob Waltz.
Waltz said "if you follow me again, according to Brownie, I will kill you" and Dick, having a strong aversion to dying, decided to end his Waltz tracking days.
In a strange way, that's kind of a symbiotic relationship.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Joe,
Is it possible Jacob was trying to protect Richard in a sincere manner? A person can make statements that can only be interpreted at the time said. Or is it interpreted correct? I do not believe most of the written information from which people derive conclusive opinions pertaining to the L.D.M. Legend. The L.D.M. would have never been a mystery if that info was correct.
Jesse
Is it possible Jacob was trying to protect Richard in a sincere manner? A person can make statements that can only be interpreted at the time said. Or is it interpreted correct? I do not believe most of the written information from which people derive conclusive opinions pertaining to the L.D.M. Legend. The L.D.M. would have never been a mystery if that info was correct.
Jesse
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Joe Ribaudo
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Angry?
Peter,
Da nzho.
Shiich oonni, he nl godeenih? Ge adiishnii.
Iyana anl ii hant' ii?
Nzhogo nanda, shiich oonni.
Haee'a.
Joe
[email protected]
Da nzho.
Shiich oonni, he nl godeenih? Ge adiishnii.
Iyana anl ii hant' ii?
Nzhogo nanda, shiich oonni.
Haee'a.
Joe
[email protected]
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Joe Ribaudo
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Anything Is Possible
Jesse,
Anything is "possible". I believe it is possible, if the story has any truth to begin with, that if Holmes had not taken Waltz's "friendly" warning, that Waltz would have blown his friends brains out, "in a sincere manner" of course.
"I do not believe most of the written information from which people derive conclusive opinions pertaining to the L.D.M. Legend."
How do you decide which stories to believe and which are not believable?
Can you give me an example of a story that most people believe and you don't? If so, why don't you believe it?
Take care, my friend.
Respectfully,
Joe
Anything is "possible". I believe it is possible, if the story has any truth to begin with, that if Holmes had not taken Waltz's "friendly" warning, that Waltz would have blown his friends brains out, "in a sincere manner" of course.
"I do not believe most of the written information from which people derive conclusive opinions pertaining to the L.D.M. Legend."
How do you decide which stories to believe and which are not believable?
Can you give me an example of a story that most people believe and you don't? If so, why don't you believe it?Take care, my friend.
Respectfully,
Joe
Three in one
Pete; I was " if my memory is right" going by what Helen C. had in her curse of the dut gold. I thought it read Waltz aproached me and roberts in the middle of the street and blah blah blah. I have not read the brown mules papers. Bill Jesse you better get out there and use some elbow grease filling up some empty holes in the supes before "the man" comes down on you! bill Joe are you turning into a comedien in the 2nd half of your life? I wonder what the TOM thinks of his question 3 in 1 now? It was a living breathing question HUH! it evolved!!! Bill
Jesse you better get out there and use some elbow grease filling up some empty holes in the supes before "the man" comes down on you! bill Joe are you turning into a comedien in the 2nd half of your life? I wonder what the TOM thinks of his question 3 in 1 now? It was a living breathing question HUH! it evolved!!! Bill Giving Jake the boot
To:Any one who knows the answer.
Where does the information that Jake got "kicked off the mountain in the late 70s" come from. I'de like to read more about that theory.
Regards, Sluicebox
Where does the information that Jake got "kicked off the mountain in the late 70s" come from. I'de like to read more about that theory.
Regards, Sluicebox
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Jesse J. Feldman
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SLUICEBOX,
I see no one has responded to your question. I find that amazing. That info is out there if you think about it. I believe Jacob went to the mts. very seldom to covertly retrieve caches in the late 70s because he was "kicked off the mt". - Not because of health or other hindrances. - Or that he had enough wealth. - Or that their was no more gold etc., etc.
Respectfully,
Jesse
I see no one has responded to your question. I find that amazing. That info is out there if you think about it. I believe Jacob went to the mts. very seldom to covertly retrieve caches in the late 70s because he was "kicked off the mt". - Not because of health or other hindrances. - Or that he had enough wealth. - Or that their was no more gold etc., etc.
Respectfully,
Jesse
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Joe Ribaudo
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Keeping It A Secret
Jesse,
None of us, I believe, have seen the "info" you speak of. The first question that comes to mind is: Why didn't Waltz mention any of this to Julia and Rhiney?
Respectfully,
Joe
None of us, I believe, have seen the "info" you speak of. The first question that comes to mind is: Why didn't Waltz mention any of this to Julia and Rhiney?
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Joe Ribaudo
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Easy Living
Jesse,
So we are to believe the Petrasches just stayed in the Supes for the easy living?
My guess would be that, like they said, they were lifelong searchers for the LDM.
They didn't find it for the same reason no one else can find it. Some very good minds have been part of that search. How smart they were has nothing to do with it.
Not looking for the LDM myself, I can look at it a little differently than most. I am not blinded by the legend or the gold.
You will need more than an opinion for a source on this story if you plan on making it fly. Better start digging.
Respectfully,
Joe
So we are to believe the Petrasches just stayed in the Supes for the easy living?
My guess would be that, like they said, they were lifelong searchers for the LDM.
They didn't find it for the same reason no one else can find it. Some very good minds have been part of that search. How smart they were has nothing to do with it.
Not looking for the LDM myself, I can look at it a little differently than most. I am not blinded by the legend or the gold.
You will need more than an opinion for a source on this story if you plan on making it fly. Better start digging.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Joe,
People will make a statement for the record because they want to protect themselves, either physically, monitarily, or politically. The Petrasches had a lot to loose if they told the whole story. You could say, they were stuck in the Superstitions. You could not say, it was easy.
Respectfully,
Jesse
People will make a statement for the record because they want to protect themselves, either physically, monitarily, or politically. The Petrasches had a lot to loose if they told the whole story. You could say, they were stuck in the Superstitions. You could not say, it was easy.
Respectfully,
Jesse
Joe, Jessie
On page 98 - 99 of "The Lost Dutchaman Mine" by Sims Ely, Waltz is telling the story to Julia and Reiney regarding why he never went back to retrieve the large cache. He indicates that not only was he afraid of the Apache, but relates that he was also followed by a man on horseback one day and that "I was afraid of him." Could this be a reference to being "kicked off the mountain." Perhaps the Patraschs were threatened by this same or similar individuals after the Dutchman died in 1891. If you belive this is a real possibility, it would be very hard to find evidence for something they were trying to keep secret to protect their physical security. But, for the historical record, it would be necessary to have a source or sources to support the theory that they did reveal the "real story" to someone and were then threatened to keep it quiet. Is there even any historical heresay evidence that the Petraschs were threatened by those they shared the "real story "with? Regards, Sluicebox
On page 98 - 99 of "The Lost Dutchaman Mine" by Sims Ely, Waltz is telling the story to Julia and Reiney regarding why he never went back to retrieve the large cache. He indicates that not only was he afraid of the Apache, but relates that he was also followed by a man on horseback one day and that "I was afraid of him." Could this be a reference to being "kicked off the mountain." Perhaps the Patraschs were threatened by this same or similar individuals after the Dutchman died in 1891. If you belive this is a real possibility, it would be very hard to find evidence for something they were trying to keep secret to protect their physical security. But, for the historical record, it would be necessary to have a source or sources to support the theory that they did reveal the "real story" to someone and were then threatened to keep it quiet. Is there even any historical heresay evidence that the Petraschs were threatened by those they shared the "real story "with? Regards, Sluicebox
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Joe Ribaudo
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Pickinng Your Points
Sluicebox,
When I read your post today, I was surprised. I could not remember Waltz ever telling Julia that he was "kicked off the mountain". After rereading the passage tonight, I see no indication that the "man....on horseback." ever followed Waltz into the Superstitionns. That would be total conjecture.
If we are going to accept what Julia related to Bark/Sims, Waltz only made one trip to the mine/cache after Weiser's death. Before leaving the site, at the time of Weiser's death, he "took the gold out of one of the two small ones, covered the place over, and started away, leading one horse."
He did not cover the mine, which from his description would have been impossible for someone in a hurry, but the place where the caches were.
On his second and only other trip to the site, he removed the other small cache. Waltz states to Julia: "I stayed there only a little while-just long enough to build a rock wall at the mouth of the tunnel that Peralta's father had started. I threw some dirt against the wall to hide the rocks, and then I came away." Could this be where the caches were hidden?
Seems like a likely place.
Some of Jessie's information comes from Ron's books. While there may be verifiable sources for the information, none have been given. A verifiable source is not a good friend told me, and he passed away some time ago. Jessie's new facts will need some really good sources, or they will remain in the "yarn" category.
Respectfully,
Joe
Compare that to Holmes' story.
When I read your post today, I was surprised. I could not remember Waltz ever telling Julia that he was "kicked off the mountain". After rereading the passage tonight, I see no indication that the "man....on horseback." ever followed Waltz into the Superstitionns. That would be total conjecture.
If we are going to accept what Julia related to Bark/Sims, Waltz only made one trip to the mine/cache after Weiser's death. Before leaving the site, at the time of Weiser's death, he "took the gold out of one of the two small ones, covered the place over, and started away, leading one horse."
He did not cover the mine, which from his description would have been impossible for someone in a hurry, but the place where the caches were.
On his second and only other trip to the site, he removed the other small cache. Waltz states to Julia: "I stayed there only a little while-just long enough to build a rock wall at the mouth of the tunnel that Peralta's father had started. I threw some dirt against the wall to hide the rocks, and then I came away." Could this be where the caches were hidden?
Seems like a likely place.
Some of Jessie's information comes from Ron's books. While there may be verifiable sources for the information, none have been given. A verifiable source is not a good friend told me, and he passed away some time ago. Jessie's new facts will need some really good sources, or they will remain in the "yarn" category.
Respectfully,
Joe
Compare that to Holmes' story.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Stories
Peter,
There is also the story of Waltz being a cross dresser.
Respectfully,
Joe
There is also the story of Waltz being a cross dresser.
Respectfully,
Joe
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coroner
Anonymity of a SOCKS Proxy. As SOCKS (as it was already marked above) transfers all data from a client to a server, nothing adding from itself, from the point of view of a web-server, a socks proxy is a client. Therefore anonymity of this type of proxy servers is very high.: http://www.checkproxy.net
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dutch elm disease
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Charles Rodig
I noticed a reference in Roger's Post (Page 1) to Gold in pale yellow quartz - this was gold paid to Charlie Rodig, a shoemaker.
I ran across a couple of articles on the internet about Charles Rodig and he was returning to "his gold mine" during the same time frame as Julia's search. I don't think the geography matches the LDM but don't know whether Rodig was being truthful either. Anyway the dates were interesting to me. Someone else may have some additional information or thoughts.
1892 news clippings from Phoenix Arizona REPUBLICAN
June 3, 1892
Charles A. Rodig, an old time prospector who has for some years been engaged in the shoemakers trade in this city, has closed his shop, sent his wife to Germany and will go out prospecting again. In 1877 Mr. Rodig was in the vicinity of Four Peaks and although the Indians were quite hostile, managed to push into a rough undeveloped country never before entered by white men. He found gold in great quantities in ledges as well as placer gold.
Three years ago Mr. Rodig started to again locate the rich find of former years, but he received a sunstroke while crossing the desert and lay for five days before he was rescued by a passing stranger and brought back to the city. He was compelled to take up the awl again for several years but recently has decided to return to his favorite pursuit of prospecting.
August 22, 1892
Charles A. Rodig returned to the city last Sunday after an absence of five weeks and brought back with him specimens of ore in which are half buried chunks of glittering yellow gold. The orginal discovery of this mine was made by Mr. Rodig several years ago in the vicinity of the Spanish Peaks.
More than a month ago he started with a companion and the expedition was subjected to the greatest privations. Their horses wandered away from camp one night and weren't found for several days. Food was scarce and the terrain and mountainious solitudes were climbed with difficulty.
Garry Cundiff
I ran across a couple of articles on the internet about Charles Rodig and he was returning to "his gold mine" during the same time frame as Julia's search. I don't think the geography matches the LDM but don't know whether Rodig was being truthful either. Anyway the dates were interesting to me. Someone else may have some additional information or thoughts.
1892 news clippings from Phoenix Arizona REPUBLICAN
June 3, 1892
Charles A. Rodig, an old time prospector who has for some years been engaged in the shoemakers trade in this city, has closed his shop, sent his wife to Germany and will go out prospecting again. In 1877 Mr. Rodig was in the vicinity of Four Peaks and although the Indians were quite hostile, managed to push into a rough undeveloped country never before entered by white men. He found gold in great quantities in ledges as well as placer gold.
Three years ago Mr. Rodig started to again locate the rich find of former years, but he received a sunstroke while crossing the desert and lay for five days before he was rescued by a passing stranger and brought back to the city. He was compelled to take up the awl again for several years but recently has decided to return to his favorite pursuit of prospecting.
August 22, 1892
Charles A. Rodig returned to the city last Sunday after an absence of five weeks and brought back with him specimens of ore in which are half buried chunks of glittering yellow gold. The orginal discovery of this mine was made by Mr. Rodig several years ago in the vicinity of the Spanish Peaks.
More than a month ago he started with a companion and the expedition was subjected to the greatest privations. Their horses wandered away from camp one night and weren't found for several days. Food was scarce and the terrain and mountainious solitudes were climbed with difficulty.
Garry Cundiff
Charles Rodig
Some additional background on Charles Rodig:
According to his death certificate and census information, Charles Rodig was born November 26, 1836 to Augusta and Maria "Funk" Rodig in Prussia. He came to the United States in 1858 and by 1870 was married and living in San Francisco and following the shoemaker trade.
It's not clear when he came to Arizona but he may have been there before 1877 according to the newspaper articles. He shows up in the 1880 census in Tombstone, Arizona but he is still listed as a shoemaker. If he dabbled in mining it must have been as a side line.
His wife's name was Fredericka and their marriage may have been an on again off again relationship. He was listed as married but he was living alone in Tombstone. The newspaper article relates that in 1892, he sent his wife to Germany and he was going prospecting!
His wife died in 1900 and Charles returned to the shoemaker trade. In 1910 he was in Phoenix with a shoe shop. He apparently did some prospecting at times since his occupation was listed as a miner on his death certificate. He doesn't appear to have found much gold.
Charles Rodig died in the Pioneer Home in Prescott an May 13, 1920 and he was buried in the Pioneer Cemetery.
I have never been exposed to the Bessie Loveless and Frank Dobie story except that what is shown on Doug Stewart's site. Of course the problem I have with the Charles Rodig account by Lovelace is where did she get the information? She didn't publish a book until 1956, Storm published his in 1939 and Dobie published his about 1930.
Who was Bessie Loveless? When did Bessie start collecting information regarding the Lost Dutchman Mine? She almost certainly didn't interview Rodig as he was dead by 1920? She did have some things correct though.
Rodig was a contemporary of Waltz in Phoenix, at least by the late 1880s and he ran a Shoe Shop. Since Rodig's was also a prospector, he would have been aware of any stories about Waltz. He also would have been interested in any gold that someone paid him, especially Waltz.
Did Rodig keep Waltz's gold? Was he searching for Jacob's mine? Was the gold that he returned with after his trip in 1892 the same as that which Jacob paid him with?
I know I'm really reaching but I have seen worse on the Discussion Board and in print, so just humor me.
Garry
According to his death certificate and census information, Charles Rodig was born November 26, 1836 to Augusta and Maria "Funk" Rodig in Prussia. He came to the United States in 1858 and by 1870 was married and living in San Francisco and following the shoemaker trade.
It's not clear when he came to Arizona but he may have been there before 1877 according to the newspaper articles. He shows up in the 1880 census in Tombstone, Arizona but he is still listed as a shoemaker. If he dabbled in mining it must have been as a side line.
His wife's name was Fredericka and their marriage may have been an on again off again relationship. He was listed as married but he was living alone in Tombstone. The newspaper article relates that in 1892, he sent his wife to Germany and he was going prospecting!
His wife died in 1900 and Charles returned to the shoemaker trade. In 1910 he was in Phoenix with a shoe shop. He apparently did some prospecting at times since his occupation was listed as a miner on his death certificate. He doesn't appear to have found much gold.
Charles Rodig died in the Pioneer Home in Prescott an May 13, 1920 and he was buried in the Pioneer Cemetery.
I have never been exposed to the Bessie Loveless and Frank Dobie story except that what is shown on Doug Stewart's site. Of course the problem I have with the Charles Rodig account by Lovelace is where did she get the information? She didn't publish a book until 1956, Storm published his in 1939 and Dobie published his about 1930.
Who was Bessie Loveless? When did Bessie start collecting information regarding the Lost Dutchman Mine? She almost certainly didn't interview Rodig as he was dead by 1920? She did have some things correct though.
Rodig was a contemporary of Waltz in Phoenix, at least by the late 1880s and he ran a Shoe Shop. Since Rodig's was also a prospector, he would have been aware of any stories about Waltz. He also would have been interested in any gold that someone paid him, especially Waltz.
Did Rodig keep Waltz's gold? Was he searching for Jacob's mine? Was the gold that he returned with after his trip in 1892 the same as that which Jacob paid him with?
I know I'm really reaching but I have seen worse on the Discussion Board and in print, so just humor me.
Garry
Rodig, Loveless, Lovelace,
Deleted.
Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.