Stone Map peer review and FYI

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This is a picture of what we believe to be the carved rock marking the end of the Stone Map trail.

We would like to thank Joe for throwing a word out that helped us understand
the slashed triangle symbol along the trail and Azmula for sharing his ideas on the backwards D which may give us a better understanding of the meaning of the mark itself.

It has been fun. We have had a good time.

Comments welcome.

Dave, Ellen, Harry, Judy, and Margaret
aka Team Fever

[Joe Ribaudo]

Team Fever,

It's always exciting when you follow a map to where you think it ends, and find the very symbol that is shown at the final location on the maps.

Since we are talking about the Stone Maps here, can we assume you have also found the triangle?

You have mentioned the "slashed triangle symbol". Until I figured out that symbol, I thought I would find a monument that would point out the way to the next monument. You can imagine my excitement when I went to that very spot, and found a large monument with a sight hole built into it.
It turned out that the sight hole pointed precisely to another monument on the other side of a large hill. Should be enough to convince any doubter, right? Well it turned out I was wrong. The monuments were exactly where the map told me they would be, but I was completely wrong about the "slashed triangle symbol".

Any idea of what you are looking for at the end of the Stone Map Trail?
Are you expecting the numbers on the maps to direct you to whatever is there? Is that the code that Azmula mentioned?

Have you found the other symbols on the map, and are they in the same sequence as they appear on the Stone Maps? Have you found any of the eighteen monuments on the trail?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Harry,

Would the answers to those questions give away too much information?
I have a lot more questions for anyone who states they have been to the end of the Stone Map Trail.

I don't expect answers that would give away your location, just interested in what you have found, not where you found it.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[rgm840]

All,
Our first goal is to see that the carved rock is not lost to history.
The second goal is to see that it is preserved undamaged.
The two goals are contrary to each other. Any ideas about how
To achieve them both would be appreciated. For example we could
take ten interested people out there together. There would then be no
motive for anyone to destroy the rock.

The only people that can claim to understand the stone maps
Are those that know the "where" and "what" of the final
objective. We don't know either one therefore we use phrases like
"we believe" and "we think". We could be wrong.

We believe we have found 15 of the eighteen dots along the trail.
I, personally was not able to find several, however, as a team,
we seem to be very, very, good.

We do think we have an understanding of the 1, arced line, and
triangle.

The challenge now is to get from the trail end to the final objective.

Could the maps be a hoax? Certainly. We think it would have to be
a very elaborate one.

For more information one could read all our previous postings.
I believe this website allows one to do that.

I gather no one challenges the carved rock as being man made.
Could it be natural? What features about it make you judge it
as being man made.

Team Fever,
Dave, Ellen, Harry, Judy, and Margaret.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Harry,

Your first goal assumes that the rock is "historical". While you have may have some evidence that establishes that historicity, right now (for the rest of us) it remains an Indian love rock.

There is no way to protect any artifact found in the Superstition Mountains short of 24 hour guard duty or removing it to a museum. If you truly believe the rock was carved as an integral part of the Stone Maps, and that they were created by historical figures, rather than as a modern-day hoax, it might be best to tell no one it's location. Since you are the ones who found it, it's your call.

You said:
"I gather no one challenges the carved rock as being man made.
Could it be natural? What features about it make you judge it
as being man made."

I believe it might be possible to tell if the "carving" is a natural formation or was made by man. I doubt if anyone with the ability to make that judgement will ever study your rock. That's just an opinion, so I could be wrong.

It seems to me, that if the rock is in the correct location in relation to the rest of the Stone Map symbols, it really makes no difference if it was carved by the hand of man or mother nature. I have seen countless circles in circles that were created by mother nature. One of the first that comes to mind, are the great many rocks that can be found on the shores of Vallecito Lake in Colorado.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Wiz]

Harry,

I concur - don't tell anyone where the rock is, except those whose motives you trust completely. Neither I nor (I think) anyone else doubts your word that the rock is in the Superstitions along what you feel to be the Stone Map trail. You've shown proof that it exists. Anyone else who wants to see it in person will need to convince you they are on the up-and-up, or else find it themselves. Don't risk the destruction of this marker.

Besides, if the Forest Service ever found out about it they'd probably destroy it themselves.

[rgm840]

We suspect your are correct that wide knowledge
of the Indian Love Rock, henceforth known as ILR
would result in its damage or destruction. That means
we can't publicize the "dots" either. One leads to the
other.

On a different note. Notice that the ILR is not a circle
within a circle as depicted on the map. It is a hole
within a circle.

We still have unknowns about the trail. We cannot
understand how one was supposed to find the IRL
from 18. Surely they didn't expect you to search a
wide area. Finding the 18th monument may help
answer the question but we have not been able to
do so.
Harry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Harry,

I may be wrong, but I believe the eighteenth "monument" is actually the final location on the Stone Maps. If you have followed the maps (precisely) to the "ILR", you are, for all intents and purposes, at the final location of the maps. The question now, is: What are you looking for?
Do you believe the final location, #18 on the marked trail, is different than the preceding seventeen places?

Having spent the last six years in that area, I believe you and your team are now hopelessly lost. It is also possible that my team and I are the ones who are lost.

You have pointed out that your rock "carving" is actually "a hole within a circle". Why do you suppose that it is different than what is depicted on the Stone Maps? A hole would have been easier to carve than a small circle within a circle.

Since Wiz does "concur" with my opinion concerning what to do about going public with your "ILR", I may need to rethink my position.

Carved rocks are a time honored tradition with many people. In the early 1400s the Chinese Emperor, Zhu Di sent his most trusted eunuch, Admiral Zheng He and a fleet of one hundred Teakwood Junks, each around 480 feet long and 180 feet across, on seven trips into the lands of the barbarians to demand tribute and establish trade relations. In many of the lands they discovered on their trips, they left carved stone monuments as evidence of their accomplishments. It is likely that they circumnavigated the globe two times on these trips. They did not leave out the Americas in those travels. On Zheng He's return from his final trip, all?... records of their travels were destroyed by the new emperor. A number of the carved stones have survived. The story is much more fantastic than our legend of the LDM.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Wiz]

Since Wiz does "concur" with my opinion concerning what to do about going public with your "ILR", I may need to rethink my position.

Just love leading with your chin, don't you, Joe?

Periodically you do actually say something semi-intelligent. This is most likely a phenomenon related to the famous roomful of monkeys with typewriters that eventually produce Hamlet. The source, however, does not (necessarily) invalidate the content.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,

No doubt you are correct. Do you do a search for "Wiz" every day, or do you actually wade through all of the trash I pound out in this simian saturated, "simi-inteligent", sideshow? Ever wonder if you are the only one taking the time to read this stuff? Of course your not, I am also paying attention to every post. Sometimes your quick wit is the only thing keeping me on my toes.

Did you just forget to put a in your last post, or are you miffed again?

Respectfully,

Joe

[rgm840]

Joe,
You count to 18 differently than I do. Even so we would certainly like
to find the monument next to the ILR. We suspect it has been destroyed.

I would bet that your end of trail and my end of trail are over 5 miles apart.
Certainly they are not in the same area. We are on different hunts.
Harry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Harry,

I normally start with one (1) when counting, but realize a count can start with any number you choose. If a code is involved, all bets are off.

No doubt you are correct, and we are worlds apart in our searches. It's a big moutain.

Respectfully,

Joe

[rgm840]

We now have two ideas to work with during the coming season.
The chances of either one of them getting us further down the
trail are unknown but we do appreciate the contribution.

In our progress/no progress report next spring we expect to explain
what we tried, giving attribution for those ideas that were not ours,
assuming the contributors permit it.
Harry
for Team Fever

[rgm840]

We ended last year with two ideas. One was a bust. One was a hit.

We think there are two legs or vectors to the final destination from
the ILR. We think we understand them both. The first leg
terminates at a monument. The second is less certain.
The destination is a surprise to us. It appears to be an open hillside
viewable from miles away.

In humor the good news is there is no hole in the ground. The bad
news is there is no hole in the ground. We would be looking for
a tunnel with an axis of 348/148 degrees. There is no evidence of one
but the lay of the land would allow it. Next years project.

We do have some observations about the stone maps. The trail
map, that is. We know nothing of the others.

Every symbol we think we understand has a navigation message.
Some more important than others, of course. Two symbols we
do not understand: The wavy line near the large hole with the dot
above it and the random dots around the stones.

We do think the creators of the map would have used something
more than a hand compass. We think something like a theodolite
with the capability to measure angle and elevation would have been
of great help. We wonder what surveying instruments of 1840’s
vintage were like. A simple transit may have been adequate.
The angles we have been measuring have been done with
no elevation. We have used a hand compass. We will eventually
check our observations with something more accurate.

The stone maps may be a big joke. We do not think they are a hoax.
They do lead to a point on the ground within the Superstition Wilderness.
The trail is marked by monuments along the way.

We are done for the season.
Harry, for Team Fever

[Joe Ribaudo]

Harry,

Glad to hear you had some success.

Like you, I am not interested in the Priest or Horse stones. I am fairly certain they are a hoax. You are correct in your assessment of the trail maps. They may be a hoax, but they will take you to specific places in the Superstitions, to the exclusion of any other area. They were not created by a casual visitor to the range.

If there are only two symbols that you don't understand, you are doing very well indeed. If the rest of the trail maps are no longer a mystery, then you should know that those items are not important. Conversely, if you don't know what they are, you are wrong about the rest of the maps.
It is that obvious.

Respectfully,

Joe

[rgm840]

We consider every line we don’t understand as important.
We have been able to tie a physical feature to most every line
we think we understand. The wavy line should be no different.
Some provide a more dramatic photograph than the ILR.

We expect the wavy line to be a rock outline, skyline, or drainage.
Perhaps it could be a bird’s eye view the north edge of Bluff Spring
Mountain. Perhaps it is the skyline of Weaver’s Needle from the
northwest. None of those ideas is convincing.

The fact that a dozen or more people have used the maps to get to
a dozen or more different locations is not an argument for map
validity. More likely it is an argument for the active imagination of
at least eleven people, if not everyone.

We think the final vector is 120 degrees and 55 feet in modern units.
Anyone want to take a shot at how to get those numbers from the maps?
Harry for Team Fever

[Joe Ribaudo]

Harry,

My Uncle Chuck was very good at math. He did not finish grade school, but later on taught himself math, through advance calculus, from books.
He worked out the location that the Cactus Marker and the markings on Black Top were leading to, with mathamatics. He may or may not have been right.

It seems to me, if you have the degrees worked out, and you are down as close as 55 feet, you will end up at the location you are looking for.

If that location is the end of the Stone Map Trail, you may not find anythinng there.

When you mentioned that you did not know what certain markings were, I said that the rest of your map had to be wrong. The Triangle-slash is just a clue. It is not really importannt to know what it is. There is a specific reason for that. On the other hand, if you are wrong about that clue, the rest of your conclusions are in error. The "wavy line" is another example of the same thing.

Because it is possible that the whole thing is a hoax, being at the end of the trail won't prove anything to you. You have to find something there.

The things you mentioned "not understanding" are a key part of knowing you have the whole thing figured out. It's where you go from there that makes all the difference. That assumes there is a treasure/mine/cache or anything of value (artifact) hidden in the Superstitions, and the maps can lead you there.

Best of luck.

Respectfully,

Joe

[rgm840]

So, no takers on 120 degrees, 55 feet. Interesting.

By the way, 348/148 should have read 348/168.
A little typographical error there.
Harry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Harry,

The only way anyone could work with your angle/feet numbers, is if they had come to the same conclusions concerning the locations of the symbols on the Stone Maps.

Working backward from my own conclusions, I could easily insert your angle and number of feet and come to a place certain on the actual terrain. , give or take a few feet.

Respectfully,

Joe

[rgm840]

Joe,
The question was what markings on the map would be interpreted
as meaning 120 degrees and 55 feet? It has nothing to do with
your terrain or my terrain. Then again, we left you last year with
your trying to count to 18, if I remember right.

It is possible you could interpret the same markings as a
different angle and/or distance. What number do you come
up with?

Try something easier. Where did we get the tunnel direction?

Keep in mind all of this is a guess using the best references
possible but no known correct answer.
Harry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Harry,

I must admit, I am clueless as to what you are talking about. I always have been. Just trying to keep the conversation flowing.

You folks could be packing the gold bars out right now, as far as I know.

Don't get me wrong, I really wish you luck. As things stand I will not be going back into the Supe's, so I just hope someone finds something. If it's you, I will be happy to give you the kudos you deserve.

I have not run out of places that I would love to check out, just don't want to jeopardize another friendship or place a family member in a dangerous place. Things were perfect when it was just Juno and me, but
those days are gone. The excitement is gone.

I will continue the research, but leave the hard work for you youngsters.
Ron's site, and the friends I have made through it, will remain a part of my life and continuing interest in the legends that make up the history of the range.

"And that is all."

Respectfully,

Joe

[rgm840]

Our stone map “destination” is on an open hillside in full view of a public
trail. There will be no pick swinging, legal or otherwise.

Next season we plan to use a metal detector, cache detector, and ground
penetrating radar, if we can get it. Ground penetrating radar is difficult
to interpret so we are not certain we have the skills to use it.

We feel that whatever is there, contrary to the Fed, belongs to the people
of Arizona under the care of Dutch Hunters, all of us, which is why we
have shared as much as we could along the way. Next season the electronic
equipment could come up cold and that will be the end of things for us.

We find it difficult to believe gold is there. One guess would be another
stone map. We are aware that metal detectors can’t find stone maps.
We do not think the LDM is at that location.

We are open to ideas on how to share our discoveries with everyone
that has spent time searching. Probably this will happen at the end of
next season, win or lose.

The question is still out there if anyone wants to take a shot at it. Where
does the 120-degree, 55ft. vector come from on the stone maps?

We are not sure we are correct as we have yet to find anything at its end
but an area of soft ground.

Team Fever
Dave, Ellen, Harry, Judy, Margaret.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Harry,

You might want to consider using a void detector over your "soft ground".

Respectfully,

Joe

[rgm840]

Joe,
What an opening!

You would put it against your forehead to test it for us, right?

120 degrees and 55ft. is still out there. Maybe we should offer a prize.
Harry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Harry,

That was pretty funny. If you plunk down the cash for a "Whites" Void Detector, and feel like bringing it up to Lake Havasu City, I will be happy to test it for you. I believe it will also pick up all of the loose nuts that were used to replace my marbles.

Are you familiar with what a void detector does and how it works? If not, I will be more than happy to explain the beast. For the money, it may be a reasonable first choice. The model is the Tm 808.

Respectfully,

Joe