Spitzfelsen.....

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

No such thing as "distance" these days. When I came up with something new and exciting, the first ones to know were my partners. I would want other minds and angles being worked as soon as possible.

The tone of your other post was not the same as your last one. I would be willing to bet, that you don't lay all of your cards on the table, to anyone. I might lose that bet, but I would chance some cash.

If all three of those people would like to e-mail or private message me, telling me they believe you have held nothing back from them, I will be happy to apologize and admit I am way off base. I won't hold my breath waiting for those words of confidence. This is not the first time you have said this type of thing.

All of this is none of my business, but you and I are providing all of the entertainment for this thread, and we seem to be running out of clues to talk about. Perhaps this qualifies as "blather".

"3 people living know where I think the LDM is, and even they dont know everything I have found and suspect.....yet."

I like it that we have been let in on the fact that you have found something new, and suspect even more, but at this point you will need to come up with some "newly" discovered "facts", or your partners may wonder when you are going to clue them in. You could always consider a phone conference. I assume you all have scramblers on your phones........Just kidding, slow day.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]

[bill711]

Peter; please please please do not come up with the clue of a pic. of a skull with hole in it, can of air tights, rusty pick. Thank,s Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

You needed a in your last post. Peter is a serious researcher with more information than you and I could collect together. Anytime you are collaboratin with "Tom", or even just kidding around with him, you are rubbing elbows with Dutch Hunter history. It's like being on a first name basis with.......Greg Davis. Those two know just about everything worth knowing about the Supes. Now if you could throw in folks like S.C. and Arrum, you could solve this whole thing in about a week. What I am trying to say here, is that Peter is in that same rarefied air as those mentioned above. Maybe not on the exact same level, and probably a lot more rigid, but in that class.

That is just personal opinion base on his posts and some private exchanges with him. I would never take his knowledge of the subject lightly.

Over 150 views since Friday evening and a pittence for member participation. We were doing much better on the "First Amendment Forum". Even had Wiz chiming in.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Peter3]

Dont know if I am in the same class with some of the folks you mentioned.
I guess I can hold my own with some, but pale in knowledge to others.

I reckon folks like to view a thread where folks know (more or less) what they are talking about...

P

[bill711]

Joe joe joe lighten up I think even pete knew I was just joking about his clues? I could have teased him about going to a different flea market than www because we needed sompin different than the same oh-same oh. I know pete is very serious about the ldm even if he didn,t know a thing about the mine he still has about as much chance as anyone looking because NOBODY has found it. Of course the more you know about it the better your chance of finding it. I know his clues are not air tights or anything like that. He probley knows that I wish him all the luck in the world. I hope that whoever finds it will clean the mine out of that nasty old gold laying around and sanitize it for the government and touristas and the history and ldm lore history. the empty hole will serve its purpose for history and lore. I put one of these for you Joe and one for Pete. bill

[bill711]

I still do not understand why the jake didn,t have them enter from the north end of the sup,s?? it,s so long and hard for 2 begainers to find their way to the mine? from the south end??? Did the south trail go directly to the mine?? Bill

[Peter3]

Bill

I think it would have been long and hard for someone to arrive at the mine site from either direction...so that doesnt matter much IMHO.

Perhaps the jake gave them instructions from the south side because that was the easiest way for them to access it.

P

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

Looking back on that reply, I guess it looked pretty heavy. While I believe what I said, no tongue in cheek, I did not think your post was anything but light jesting.

Peter,

Bill's question has a lot of merit.

"I think it would have been long and hard for someone to arrive at the mine site from either direction...so that doesnt matter much IMHO."

That is an assumption that requires some idea of what area the LDM is located in. The best evidence might indicate that the mine is only a "short distance" into the range.

Some might wonder if a seven mile trail through some pretty rough terrain, might qualify as "a short distance". When you consider the extra distance you have to travel, from Phoenix, to reach the start of that trail, it's a hike. Is there a recorded attempt by Julia or her party to follow the "German Clues" from the Salt River? Their comings and goings in the Superstitions never seemed to be much of a secret.

I have said before, when you consider the folks who searched for the LDM since he died and before, you should come to some conclusions as to anyone searching with new information or clues. Everything that pops up these days originated with the old time Dutch Hunters, except for my stuff, of course.

When anyone comes up with something new and exciting, it is the same clues, the same trails and the same story that has been around, in some circles, for many, many years. You are just looking at if from another angle.

Good thing I didn't hold my breath waiting for your partners to "back you up". I know, I know, they are too busy to hear from you and, of course, too busy to waste there time on such foolishness.

Not to worry.....I trust you.

My, my. 405 views. Peter, this is one hot topic.

Respectfully,.

Joe

[bill711]

Pete & Joe; I was going by the supposedly Julea map she drawed even it shows that it must be near the north end?? In an area where you have to carry a water bottle to safely make it to the out house and back 7or 8 miles is quit a distance especially if you are going to spend time looking around for something that is hid?? This is why I vote for a horse, You are more rested and it lets you have a clearer head for looking. bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

You are getting a little out of control here. "Julia's" map is so out of wack, that there is no possible way to tell north from south, or for that matter, east from west. Since there is no map in existance, that I know of, that can be shown to have actually been drawn by Julia Thomas, you should be reluctant to give her credit for the one you have seen.

If you assume that the bottom of the map shows the Four Peaks, then the bottom of the map is north. You will see that the first peak to the south of the Salt River, is Weaver's Needle. Black Top Hill is located to the east and a little south of the Needle.

The trail starts at the south end of the range, and the mine seems to be outside the north end of the range, very close to the Salt.

I have just spent more time on this map, than I have in the last forty-six years, and you should not spend another minute on it.

I have always waited for day two when I have gone in. Takes time to set up a comfee camp and kitchen.

On to the next mystery.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Joe; I was just going by the general opinion of her map. I just seen it one day and glanced at it. BUT as far as I know she and reiny always went in from the south trail. SO I assumed thats where her map started was on the south end. Now if you compare it with the other maps it has the same fish hook loop that the others have. NOW I didn,t say that I would pay any attention to it but I was just pointing out the resemblance to the other maps. I was not trying to lead pete astray with my blather. sorry pete. Bill

[bill711]

The only thing I can think of why the jake would send them in from the long way is that the trail would lead them to the mine area. the trail was such that he could draw them some pic,s to look for to make sure that they were on the right trail BOTH from the front view and the back view. Hence the pic,s. I don,t see how the trail could be any easier from that direction. I believe I would argue with peter on that. Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

I believe they went into the mountains from First Water, not the south end of the range. We will not confuse Peter.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Peter3]

>>"I think it would have been long and hard for someone to arrive at the mine site from either direction...so that doesnt matter much IMHO."

That is an assumption that requires some idea of what area the LDM is located in. <<


duh......

[bill711]

Joe & pete sorry about getting my ends turned around, I was toooo deep in my thinking at the time I guess. Yes pete I guess it depends on where a person think,s the mine is?? I think it,s alittle farther north than you do, I beleive. Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

"I think it would have been long and hard for someone to arrive at the mine site from either direction...so that doesnt matter much IMHO."

It "doesn't matter much", only if your opinion is correct. There is very little "evidence" that anyone's opinion is the right one. The key word there is evidence. There are stories, but anyone can make up a story with real trails and real landmarks, after the fact. Consider the story that you could make up, after the time you have spent in the mountains. If someone started looking, after you were dead, do you think the story you left behind would start looking pretty good the farther they went down your trail? By golly!!! Look, here is the waterfall, just where it should be , and here is the saddle with "whatever" framed in the middle.
It's just as old "Dutch Peter" said it would be.

There are a number of such stories, and just as many places in the Superstitions that will fit the bill. I have been to a few of them, so it's possible that what I say is true. If you haven't been to those same "few" places, you might doubt me.

There are some stories that I consider a little better than others, mainly because they did not travel a great distance before they came to light.
Not so many voices spoke them and not so many ears, thought they heard it this way, instead of that way, and then it was repeated to so and so's great-great uncle. WOW! It just doesn't get any better than that.

There is evidence that is pretty compelling, but damn little of it. It is always dismissed out of hand. Perhaps that is the correct thing to do with such information. I fear, I am no expert there.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Peter3]

Bill

I have always found it interesting that folks seemed to be "luckier" finding the mine when entering the mountains from the north.. You may well be correct in your northward orientation theory.

P

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

Those are really good stories!

Respectfully,

Joe

[Thomas Glover]

I have only lightly been following this thread, so pardon if I ask a question or address something that has already been discussed. A central question is always what gives credence to certain clues. What is it – if anything – that gives particular credence to “The German clues”?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Dr. Glover,

That's a pretty good question.

Obviously, if the clue fits your theory and the area you are searching, it's a pretty damn good clue.

For me, with my limited education, I have always taken the path that takes the least amount of mental strain. In other words, if you have a problem, don't think it into a bigger problem than it is. Doesn't always work, but I have to stick with what I know.

If I were looking for the LDM, I would use the "known" facts to base my search on. Not much there, is there? In truth, there is nothing but stories. The more time that passes from the event, and the more the story is told, the less likely it is that you will hear or read the truth.

While your book is the best that has ever been written on the LDM, "IMHO", there is always something that gets repeated that takes us farther from the truth. Small things. One word is changed and changes the entire event. You research something, and misread what it says. You put it in your book, as you understood it. The next guy reads your book and puts it in his book. Before long, it is fact.

This is not a critique of your book, as I have worn it out (falling apart) as a reference source. I reckon I will have to get out my tape pretty soon.

If something as minor, in importance, as how many men were with Julia Thomas on her first attempt to enter the mountains can be changed by being misread, what about some of the really important things? Like what Waltz said in German. Was it a peak, spire, ridge(s), pointed hill, or what?

Lots of clutter, but there are some really clear and believable clues. Each of us has no doubt as to what those clues are.

I trust your life is getting easier.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

This is why I use the 2 soldier,s and the deering clues. They back one another up and they did have witnessed gold by several people!! Also If you read what Holme,s dad was first told about the mine by the first prospecter it fit,s into what the others said about it. The 2 soldier,s and the deering. Bill Oh here,s one for you Joe Pete do You need one too ? I,m in a generous mood tonite here one for Tom Next time I write I,ll probley runout of pencil and paper for being so generous with it tonite.

[Peter3]

Bill

I agree of course on the Soldiers/Deering clues. But is that mine and Waltzs mine the same?

Tom

I have some faith in the German clues due to field research and the fact that they support other evidence I have obtained.

P

[Thomas Glover]

It would seem that in the end the faith one has in a set of clues is whether or not they match one’s own work. Does this mean that one is starting from a firm conclusion and then accepting those clues that fit with what one already believes?

I have had some years to work on the German Clues and I do find them most interesting, but not definitive – and in some areas perhaps not even valid. On a cloudy Tuesday morning hope you do not mind me rambling on a bit here. Then as the sun breaks through it will be on to other matters…

Why do many (most?) get excited about the German Clues?

· Point: They are in German. Waltz spoke German. Waltz probably spoke German with Julia and Rhinehart about the mine. Therefore clues in German must be “Truer”, “Closer to the Source”.
· Counterpoint: Probably all of Waltz’s clues were originally in German – but, did the German Clues come from Waltz? No. They came from Rhinehart, and they came from Rhinehart only after he and Herman had hunted the mine together and talked about it and Waltz’s clues for some time. Further, Waltz and Rhinehart spoke different dialects of German – in some ways they did not even speak the same exact language.
· Point: The German Clues are organized into sets of clues covering different aspects of the mine and directions. A definite plus!
· Counterpoint: Who organized them? Waltz? Not to the best of my knowledge. Rather it was either Herman, Rhinehart or Edwards. If they were not organized by Waltz then the validity of their organization crumbles.
· Point: The German Clues are accurate. End of story.
· Counterpoint: They are known to include one significant factual error as discussed sometime ago on this forum – the use of kilometers for a measure. For there to be second and third errors there must be a first. There is.
· Point: The origin and provenance of the clues – Waltz to Rhinehart to Herman to Edwards – is known and renders them “more solid”.
· Counterpoint: My understanding is that after Rhinehart and Herman searched Herman became exasperated with Rhinehart's recollections of what Waltz had said. and Herman then insisted that Rhinehart tell him what Waltz had said in German. That they were not working in German from the start may well tell us something about Rhinehart’s German (remember he was very young when he was brought to this country). So the origin of the clues is that they originated with Rhinehart because his English versions of the same things were getting them no where, and they were recorded some time after Waltz’s death, and organized by someone who may never even have known Waltz (Herman or Edwards), then they were hastily copied by a person (Edwards) who knew no German. What we have is the Edwards version.

Well, sun is thinking of coming out…..

[Joe Ribaudo]

Dr. Glover,

So....was "spitzfelsen" a "point" or "counterpoint"?

Sorry, just couldn't resist that.

Excellent post!

Respectfully,

Joe

[Peter3]

>>Does this mean that one is starting from a firm conclusion and then accepting those clues that fit with what one already believes? <<

Exactly.