Mine Deity

[Joe Ribaudo]

Lazarus,

"With all due respect to Joe, I am certain it wasn't intended to be a rattlesnake. I think if it were a rattlesnake, it would be coiled up on top of his head. Once again, I'm only guessing."

I don't think I said that it was a rattlesnake. If I did, Wiz will be along in a minute to correct me.

I said:

"If the Maya were carving a snake, it's skin would be immediately recognizable as a specific member of the rattlesnake family."

Archaeologist, Jose Diaz Bolio has written that the Maya quite literally derived their knowledge of the world "from the mouth of a rattlesnake".
The rattlesnake which they held in such awe, was Crotalus durissus durissus. The Mayan name for this particular species was, Ahau Can which means, "Great, lordly serpent". The pattern on it's skin was so distinctive that it is the basis for a good deal of Mayan art, architecture, science of geometry and a possible reason behind the design of their pyramids. Peter would appreciate the way the four cardinal points are depicted in the pattern of their skin, and how this reverence for the designs on the "Great, lordly serpent" may have actually been the inspiration for "all American Indian architecture."

Having said all of that, it is also possible that it is not a snake's head at all.

Bill,

After reading your post, I think you meant to say you agree with Laz, not me.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

JOE; the confusion reins. I didn,t say it ever was a rattler. You said it wasn,t designed like a rattler and it looked like a cobra head from one angle. It did not have the design of the rattler and I agree. I also thought that it looked like cobra from my angle too. LAZ said it didn,t have a design, I said it looked like the snake body was made to frame the face. LAZ seemed to think I said it was a ratler. I do not think I did. Me and you were in agreement that it looked like south american ind. made.. I said look at the slash marks going around the head... inca=olmex=mistex=mayan=inca whatever.... Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

You are correct, "confusion reigns". Make sure you have some coffee before you read these posts. I will assume you meant "Mixtecs", (Cloud People)

Respectfully,

Joe

[lazarus]

Joe,
your information on Mayan culture is fantastic. Thanks!
It is most certainly supposed to be a snake, and the pattern on the eyes is very cobra-like. The 'body' of the snake doesn't have any pattern. It is smooth. I have done a great deal of research on my own, and I have not found an answer. I will try to shoot some close-ups of the eyes and get them online soon.

Bill,
I think we are all in agreement, actually...none of us think it looks like a rattlesnake, even if that is what it needs to be to make any sense.

Still no word from the pros. I'm going to be unavailable for awhile. You will all have to carry on without me. Hopefully I'll know more when I return.

Laz

[bill711]

No NO NO JOE. I meant TOLTEX....Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

You were a long way from spelling Toltec. If our little guy was Toltec, I think he would look much more ghoulish. If he were Mixtec, he would look way more fierce. The Toltecs were very bloodthirsty, and carving out beating hearts was their thing. The Mixtec were very militaristic. The artwork usually reflected the culture, and our guy fits neither.

You know a lot more than what you are giving us here. Start coming clean with some of your secret information. Farm boy my ass!

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Joe Have you ever seen the snake on the perimide down there change as the sun moves across the sky??? That,s what I call art work..Joe I got back from a month in the hosipital and every dang thing was quiting on me even my tube. I got me a cordless key board it,s alot different and has a light touch . It,s easier for me to make mistakes now.. My neighbers moved out on 3 sides of me and left me their cock roaches. So I,m being assaulted from all sides.. I,m alittle out of wack too...We had so much rain we have webbed feet. Now we have a heat wave 110 degree.. SO did the wild fires get you or petier?? I heard how the heat was so bad out there that the trees were exploding have you seen any of that.. Wish you all well Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

The Temple of Kukulcan/Quetzalcoatl at Chichen Itza is indeed an architecural wonder. The effect of the undulating serpent can only be seen on two days of the year. It appears on the days of the vernal and autumnal equinoxes on the northern staircase.

It would seem that our "farm boy" knows that "ars longa, vita, brevis".
The ziggurat endures while the civilization dies.

Do you know what kind of swords the Toltec warriors used, and why?

Peter and I are not near the fires. 110 degrees is not considered a heat wave here.

As a young man I fought fires in California. I have seen the trees explode. I have no desire to see that again.

Thank you for your reply.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Joe; If I ever knew about the knivies I have forgotten. I do have a nutting stone and a stone hatchet from them. I have seen how they could carve the stone, Man they could work it.. No 110 degree doesn,t seem like much but add in about 90 percent humidity and you do have stress real bad you can,t dry off to cool down... Refresh my mind about the kniveies. Wish you well Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

The Toltec warriors used wooden swords so as not to seriously harm their enemies.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

JOE; I,ll try texmex maybe I,ll get something right if I try LONG enough..Refresh me are they the ones who played the games and the loser,s WERE sacraficed TO THE GODS??? I also have some of theIR money too. Do you know what their money is??? i mY BRAND NEW KEY BOARD IS FOULING UP ALREADY. SHIT jOE SOMETIMES YOU JUST CAN,T WIN. i HAD A SCHOOL MATE WHO WENT TO THE UOFMEXICO AND STUDIED ARCHEOLOGY HE GOT TO DIG SOME KIVVE,S DOWN THERE. i WOULD HAVE LIKED SOME OF THAT..HE HUNTED AIR HEADS AND I DID TOO BUT NEITHER OF US KNEW ABOUT THE OTHER BEING INTERESTED IN IT GROWING UP.. I HUNTED THEM SINCE I WAS 5 YEAR OLD MY OLDER BROTHER BY 14 YR,S HUNTED THEM TOO I LEARNED IT FROM HIM. i HAVE ALWAYS LIKE THAT KIND OF THING. SEND ME AN E-MAIL AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF THE STORIES IN THE MAG,S . I WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINION OF THEM. tHE STORY IS INTERESTING AT THE LEAST.... WISH YOU WELL JOE BILL

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

The ball game you speak of was actually played by most of the cultures of Mesoamerica. The Maya had the largest ball court known, which was located at Chichen Itza. The game was only played by the noblemen and the loosing captain was often sacrificed, but at times it was just a ball game without a death for the closing ceremonies.

The ball was invented by the Olmecs.

If you are hungry, you might go looking for "Texmex". If you are seeking a people from Mesoamerica, you might want to look for Mixtecs

The Maya used many precious commodities for money. Probably the most prized was the cacao (chocolate beans). They also used salt, red spiny oyster shell, jade, cloth and obsidian. Their "money" was prized outside their territory by other cultures. Barter, as in any ancient civilization, was a common method of exchange.

I have a passing interest in Mesoamerican history, but I am not that knowledgeable. I have read a great deal, talked with people who are experts in the field, and retained only a fraction of the information.

Thanks for the reminders.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

JOE;Did I spell texmex right?? It is texas food isn,t it??I think. While the cultures did tradeand barter for things. They actually did have a established money or coin of the rime.. It is made of real thin copper sheets. It is spud in shape if you know what that is? Something shaped like a big donkeys tallawacker With the head. I have a small stack of then. They valued copper very high..Joe there is so much information on them that you could study them for the rest of your life and still not cover half of it. I enjoy reading about them some times, some of the books I like and some are too boring for me, not enough action to hold my attention. BUT they are a study. I don,t know alot about them I forget and then it comes back to me at the oddest times..I like the air head and tommy hawk part of it and the bowls containers. They were up here around me along time ago over at spiro mound,s. also the vikings were through here too and left their writing on rocks

[ASUgrad]

Hello,

This is the first time I've posted to this discussion board. I am a graduate student in archaeology at ASU. I specialize in Mesoamerican cultures and I can tell you with certainty that you deity bears absolutely NO resemblance to ANY pre-columbian, american cultural imagery or craftwork. The most obvious non-indian characteristic is the beard. Also, the Spanish certainly did carve with stone.

It is obvious that you are all a bunch of amateurs and probably don't have the first clue, but you should know that if your find is indeed authentic, and it was found on public land, and if it is over 100 years old, then what you really have there is a clear violation of the Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979. The offense is punishable by up to $100,000 in fines, 5 years in prison and confiscation of personal property used to remove the object, including vehicles, tools, etc.

Just be aware of this as you seek professional help, because you need it...

[Joe Ribaudo]

ASUgrad,

Welcome to the LDM Forum.

We could use some help in your field. I don't believe anyone here is claiming to be anything but an amateur in archaeology. I think everyone here is keenly aware of the law's concerning antiquity. For those who don't know, it is against the law to remove any man made object from puplic lands that is over fifty years old. That would include the millions of fifty caliber shells that are found all over the desert in Arizona.

That explanation would be considered an oversimplification by an expert.

Dr. Baldwin is one of my favorite authors. Did you know him?

I think I came to pretty much the same conclusion as you did concerning the carving. What we were seeking, was what it is, not what it isn't. As an ASU grad, I hope you can add something substantive to our discussion.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Wiz]

It is obvious that you are all a bunch of amateurs and probably don't have the first clue...

A little arrogant for a first time poster, aren't you, grad?
A little advice: This is not a gentle forum. If you want to swim with the sharks, try not to get too chummy.

[azdave35]

beware of asu grad...he may be another one of wyatt's alias's

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,

That was a good post. No tongue in cheek here, just appreciation for a nicely turned phrase.

azdave,

That was also my first thought, but I decided to give the guy some rope. I will know more if I get some kind of intelligent reply to my post.

ASUgrad,

Now don't get crazy here. Just make us all look like fools with your response.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[bill711]

Yes Yes and Yes indeedie; Tell me asu schooler of 1 one find that actually belong to the professional archaology society that some rank amature didn,t take him out and rubb his nose in it so he could find it and claim it as his own...bill

[P]

ASUgrad,

You are obviously either one of Mr Wyatts many reincarnations, or an idiot.

Interesting how you just joined the forum today to post your silly drivel.
Much like Mr Wyatts many faces in the past.

Peter

[Wiz]

Peter,

I agree. Notice: He just joined today; Wyatt just finished a campaign to try and make himself look reasonable again; In that campaign, he goes to great lengths to make sure we know he left the tools where they were; now this arrogant holier-than-thou snot-nosed POS shows up with the same "you guys are a bunch of amateurs" line that Wyatt started out with, plus a "you can't remove anything" kicker.

Watch now for Wyatt to leap in and speak out against this guy, therefore worming his way into the good graces of this forum because he's "one of us".

I think I'll look up what the antiquity laws actually say. I suspect you can't be prosecuted for picking something up that's over 100 years old. How on earth would you know that unless you got it tested?

Hell, if the Green Suits knew Laz's dig was there, they'd probably go and destroy it themselves. If it was on public land. Which of course it isn't.


With all that said, however, he did have a good point about the beard on the icon.

[rochha]

Wiz,

Excellent observation............golf clap!!!!!!


Rochha

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,

There are actually two current laws that apply, and you don't need to know you are breaking the law to be prosecuted.

Our "ASUgrad" is correct on his comments concerning the law.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Wiz]

...you don't need to know you are breaking the law to be prosecuted.

Maybe not. But THEY do!

[ASUgrad]

Nope, I do not go by the name of Wyatt, nor do i know who the hell you are speaking about. I was informed of this find by a collegue because of the discussion about it being mesoamerican, which it obviously isn´t.

Also, it is impossible to determine the age of the carving by any sort of ´testing´. The only way to determine age in this case is by provenance . You may be thinking of carbon dating, but this can only be used on things once living i.e. organic matter, which this is not. You could test for the age of the rock, but this gives no indication of when it was picked up and carved.

But lets face it, if this is Spanish, and it really does look to be, then it is definately more than 150 years old, but not more than 500 years old. In any case, it is still something I would hesitate to show off on the internet if I wanted to avoid prosecution and/or sell it on the black antiquities market. These are very amateur mistakes. I hope ole´ lazarus found a pile of gold nearby and headed south, because secrets are hard to keep on the internet.