According to Mathew Roberts' account spelled out in Helen Corbin's "The Bible" Edwards backtracked to the work camp where he discovered a crude arrasta which was used to break up the ore for the trip back to Mexico. He describes "A large pole, fifteeen feet high, had been broken off at ground level, it had been used as a fulcrum for a crude but effective crushing stone."
According to the Kochera Letter referenced in Dr. Glover's book "Part I The Golden Dream" The ore assayed $49,728.00 per ton at $35.00/oz.
Other stories refer to "Ore" or "Float" being discovered. Not one refers to "Gold" being found.
Even the extremely rich Kochera ore is mainly rock. Seems like alot of extra wieght to carry all the way back to Mexico. It would seem to me that if they were mining for an extended period of time a true Arrasta would have been employed to further process the ore down to gold bars.
This begs the question, Why would they be carrying ore out with them when they were attacked?
Arrastas and "The Massacre"
Gold Bars
Thinking a little further on this, Bob Ward told a story of Gold Bars being found in a cave and I thought there was a discussion about the story on this forum. There is. Joe started an excellent discussion last year under the topic "Cave with Gold Bars." Apparently pictures were taken of three gold bars discovered in a cave near Al Marrow's camp. Tracy L Hawkins, who was directly involved stated, "It is my beliefe that the mexican miners when the Apache were after them would have stashed the gold when their mules were picked off . I think they took the packs from the wounded mules and overloaded the remainder and when they camped at night hid what they could not carry. It would be reasonable to assume they woluld have unloaded the least valuable loads first and I feel this stash may be what the dutchman may have found . I think the miners stashed the more valuable gold --the bars --last in the cave Harry France found ----from the location he lead us to it would be only a short run to the massacure grounds . I think the gold found there was what they had in their saddle bags."
Guess I should re-read the forum before I post a topic!?!?
Guess I should re-read the forum before I post a topic!?!?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Gold Bars/Ore
Knun,
You have made some excelent points here.
The problem, as I see it, is the five dots and the crown on the bars. If the Peraltas were the miners and the dates (1847 and later) are relevant, why were those marks on the bars? Al Morrow told my aunt: "Tell Chuck I found the cave and it was exactly as Bob described it......" He later denied saying this to her when Uncle Chuck asked him about it.
I know that information is true. I have no idea why it became such a convoluted and deceptive story. Neither Chuck or Maxine knew why Al said what he said. Perhaps Tracy knows about this.
As I said before, Chuck lost his second generation Colt SAA while riding his horse looking for this cave. He was unable to find it. Going to Al's camp, he pointed out where he had been riding and told Al he would give him $50 if he could find it. Al found the gun two weeks later and returned it to Chuck. I have that .45 and it will remain in the family until someone loses their mind and sells it.
If anyone on this forum has given a more important and unknown set of clues to any treasure in the Superstitions, I would like to hear it again. It's hell to get old. All of the above was told to me by Chuck or Maxine Ribaudo. While I am not telling everything I was told, it is all a truthful account of the words of two people I would trust with my life.
If anyone finds Bob's cave with this information, I expect to receive my share.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
You have made some excelent points here.
The problem, as I see it, is the five dots and the crown on the bars. If the Peraltas were the miners and the dates (1847 and later) are relevant, why were those marks on the bars? Al Morrow told my aunt: "Tell Chuck I found the cave and it was exactly as Bob described it......" He later denied saying this to her when Uncle Chuck asked him about it.
I know that information is true. I have no idea why it became such a convoluted and deceptive story. Neither Chuck or Maxine knew why Al said what he said. Perhaps Tracy knows about this.
As I said before, Chuck lost his second generation Colt SAA while riding his horse looking for this cave. He was unable to find it. Going to Al's camp, he pointed out where he had been riding and told Al he would give him $50 if he could find it. Al found the gun two weeks later and returned it to Chuck. I have that .45 and it will remain in the family until someone loses their mind and sells it.
If anyone on this forum has given a more important and unknown set of clues to any treasure in the Superstitions, I would like to hear it again. It's hell to get old. All of the above was told to me by Chuck or Maxine Ribaudo. While I am not telling everything I was told, it is all a truthful account of the words of two people I would trust with my life.
If anyone finds Bob's cave with this information, I expect to receive my share.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Tracy L Hawkins
- Part Timer
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm
- Location: Phoenix Az
Bob Bradys cave
Joe
I wasn't involved directly with this search, Chuck, Ernie and Dale had ask me to go along but I was unable to go for somw reason I don't remember now.
From the information I recieved from the three later the cave was Quote" not far from Als camp and was about half way to the top of Bluff Springs in a narrow, bush choked cut ----the opening had been rocked up but parts had fallen to revieal the opening. Brady claimed to have remover some of the rocks to get inside and replaced them before he left"
This sounds nothing like the cave Harry France tried to lead us to at a later date.
Ernie took pictures of the bars Brady had and they had the same mark on the corner as the bar Harry had .
This was hashed out rather well a year or so ago . Due to health problems I haven't been able to make my trip in yet but hope to soon .
TLH
PS
Maxine told me about the phone call from Al-- she said he told he he knew bars had been removed because of the dust , really strange tale.
TLH
I wasn't involved directly with this search, Chuck, Ernie and Dale had ask me to go along but I was unable to go for somw reason I don't remember now.
From the information I recieved from the three later the cave was Quote" not far from Als camp and was about half way to the top of Bluff Springs in a narrow, bush choked cut ----the opening had been rocked up but parts had fallen to revieal the opening. Brady claimed to have remover some of the rocks to get inside and replaced them before he left"
This sounds nothing like the cave Harry France tried to lead us to at a later date.
Ernie took pictures of the bars Brady had and they had the same mark on the corner as the bar Harry had .
This was hashed out rather well a year or so ago . Due to health problems I haven't been able to make my trip in yet but hope to soon .
TLH
PS
Maxine told me about the phone call from Al-- she said he told he he knew bars had been removed because of the dust , really strange tale.
TLH
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Joe Ribaudo
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Bluff Spring Mountain
Tracy,
Good to hear from you. I have been concerned with your silence for such a long period. Hope you are feeling better now.
The "dust" comment is exactly as I remember the story from Chuck and Maxine. While I believe the story, because of the gold ingots, I am less sure of the location being on Bluff Spring Mountain. I know that's where Chuck was riding in his search, but I am not sure they were pointed towards the correct place by Brady. As you know, Bluff Spring Mountain has well defined borders and has been searched by many Dutch Hunters over the years.
The Al Morrow comments will always remain a mystery. It seems safe to assume that he did not find the cave. That was, after all, the type of treasure he was actually searching for. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, that he said he found it. Since you knew Maxine, I would assume that you also believe he made that statement.
Could this be the place that the Stone Maps are leading many to, or are there many caves of gold bars in the Superstitions? Since Knun started this thread, perhaps he has done more research on this story and knows more than what we have put forth here. There has been a lot of smoke on Bluff Spring Mountain over the years for there to be no fire. Did Chuck or Ernie ever mention why they walked away from the area?
Tracy, I hope all is well with you and your family. Take care.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
Good to hear from you. I have been concerned with your silence for such a long period. Hope you are feeling better now.
The "dust" comment is exactly as I remember the story from Chuck and Maxine. While I believe the story, because of the gold ingots, I am less sure of the location being on Bluff Spring Mountain. I know that's where Chuck was riding in his search, but I am not sure they were pointed towards the correct place by Brady. As you know, Bluff Spring Mountain has well defined borders and has been searched by many Dutch Hunters over the years.
The Al Morrow comments will always remain a mystery. It seems safe to assume that he did not find the cave. That was, after all, the type of treasure he was actually searching for. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, that he said he found it. Since you knew Maxine, I would assume that you also believe he made that statement.
Could this be the place that the Stone Maps are leading many to, or are there many caves of gold bars in the Superstitions? Since Knun started this thread, perhaps he has done more research on this story and knows more than what we have put forth here. There has been a lot of smoke on Bluff Spring Mountain over the years for there to be no fire. Did Chuck or Ernie ever mention why they walked away from the area?
Tracy, I hope all is well with you and your family. Take care.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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Peralta Gold Bars?
Knun,
Those gold bars more than likely came from the 1700s. I believe the Jesuits had nothing to do with actually placing them there but Azmula's account of Father Rojas can't be discounted.
As for the Stone Maps being found in the celler of the church, how can we be sure if they were the same maps that we have now? Was there something on the manifest that identified them? I am betting we will all have to wait for Azmula's book to find that out. I can't wait to see the photo of that manifest, assuming one was taken.
There is a lot of interesting history from the era. The Jesuits, Franciscans and the Peraltas do one hell of a dance through that history.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Those gold bars more than likely came from the 1700s. I believe the Jesuits had nothing to do with actually placing them there but Azmula's account of Father Rojas can't be discounted.
As for the Stone Maps being found in the celler of the church, how can we be sure if they were the same maps that we have now? Was there something on the manifest that identified them? I am betting we will all have to wait for Azmula's book to find that out. I can't wait to see the photo of that manifest, assuming one was taken.
There is a lot of interesting history from the era. The Jesuits, Franciscans and the Peraltas do one hell of a dance through that history.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Tracy L Hawkins
- Part Timer
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm
- Location: Phoenix Az
Gold Bars
Joe
Both Chuck, Dale and Ernie stated at differant times they felt Brady had mislead them, that is why they quit the Blufff Springs search altho Dale and I checked out a few places on the side of the mountain Dale felt likely spots
I have never placed much faith in the stone maps mostly because of so much BULL S_ _ T written about them. Due to some of the ideas put forward here I have been convinced to reexamin my thoughts on the subject.
The one thing I have long wondered about is this --- If the Mexican miners had placed the gold bars in the caves---- how come no one has found a place where the gold was smeltered??? Surely there would have been some traces of the smelter or broken molds found, I have never heard of a find of that nature in or around the mountains .
TLH
Both Chuck, Dale and Ernie stated at differant times they felt Brady had mislead them, that is why they quit the Blufff Springs search altho Dale and I checked out a few places on the side of the mountain Dale felt likely spots
I have never placed much faith in the stone maps mostly because of so much BULL S_ _ T written about them. Due to some of the ideas put forward here I have been convinced to reexamin my thoughts on the subject.
The one thing I have long wondered about is this --- If the Mexican miners had placed the gold bars in the caves---- how come no one has found a place where the gold was smeltered??? Surely there would have been some traces of the smelter or broken molds found, I have never heard of a find of that nature in or around the mountains .
TLH
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Peralta Gold?
Hi Tracy,
Any gold bars with a crown and five dots on them, were not smeltered in the Superstition Mountains. While I believe that to be a true statement, I would not bet my life on it. I would, however, bet the farm.
If there is a Jesuit connection to the Stone Maps, those gold bars came from Mexico. They were brought up in carts and hidden by the Peraltas for the Jesuit Order.
As for the Stone Maps being authentic or not, there is evidence on the ground in the Superstitions that indicates that they are not the work of someone who was not intimately familiar with the range. That does not mean that they are not a hoax.
There are maps and stories that have been around longer than the Stone Maps that lead to the same places. One of those places may be the Lost Dutchman Mine.
Not all of what I have said here is conjecture. I have seen and laid my hands on the proof of the Stone Maps. What is behind the maps and what they lead to is another story. I believe none of the stories I have heard concerning the Stone Maps. Any of them may actually be the truth, but it does not matter. There is truth in the maps and that is all that really matters. The stories, as you have said, are all B.S. because no one really knows if they have the slightest relationship to the truth of what happened. That, of course, includes me.
If Azmula has some historical documents that prove that the Stone Maps were the work of Father Rojas, that will be a wonderful piece of detective work. It will not, however, bring him one step closer to the Jesuit Treasure. The answer to this puzzle, IMHO, will not be found in Arispe or anywhere else in Mexico. It will be found in the Superstition Mountains.
A good book requires the research in Mexico. I assume that Azmula's book will be an excellent story considering the obvious work he has put into the background information.
Did you ever locate the movies of your trips with Chuck and Ernie? I would love to have some pictures of Chuck in the mountains. What I have is poor at best.
Thank you for your reply.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
Any gold bars with a crown and five dots on them, were not smeltered in the Superstition Mountains. While I believe that to be a true statement, I would not bet my life on it. I would, however, bet the farm.
If there is a Jesuit connection to the Stone Maps, those gold bars came from Mexico. They were brought up in carts and hidden by the Peraltas for the Jesuit Order.
As for the Stone Maps being authentic or not, there is evidence on the ground in the Superstitions that indicates that they are not the work of someone who was not intimately familiar with the range. That does not mean that they are not a hoax.
There are maps and stories that have been around longer than the Stone Maps that lead to the same places. One of those places may be the Lost Dutchman Mine.
Not all of what I have said here is conjecture. I have seen and laid my hands on the proof of the Stone Maps. What is behind the maps and what they lead to is another story. I believe none of the stories I have heard concerning the Stone Maps. Any of them may actually be the truth, but it does not matter. There is truth in the maps and that is all that really matters. The stories, as you have said, are all B.S. because no one really knows if they have the slightest relationship to the truth of what happened. That, of course, includes me.
If Azmula has some historical documents that prove that the Stone Maps were the work of Father Rojas, that will be a wonderful piece of detective work. It will not, however, bring him one step closer to the Jesuit Treasure. The answer to this puzzle, IMHO, will not be found in Arispe or anywhere else in Mexico. It will be found in the Superstition Mountains.
A good book requires the research in Mexico. I assume that Azmula's book will be an excellent story considering the obvious work he has put into the background information.
Did you ever locate the movies of your trips with Chuck and Ernie? I would love to have some pictures of Chuck in the mountains. What I have is poor at best.
Thank you for your reply.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
Just a student
Joe and Tracy,
Sorry I didn't respond sooner but I had to travel for work and was out of town for awhile.
In response to your query, I have no additional information to add to the massacre story. I have no team, am a member of a team, or even a specific area of interest in the mountains. I do look out my window every day and see the Supes calling me. I am essentually a student on this forum willing to pose questions to ponder which I cannot answer. I have been in the mountains many times as a tourist more than anything. So I hope that clears up any misrepresentation I may have promoted about my knowledge of these wonderful legends. I also hope, by stating this, I do not alienate anyone from responding to any of my posts in the future.
I do, through deductive reasoning, feel that the massacre story is pertinent to the Lost Dutchman but not to Jesuit hoard. My post, was simply an attempt to ask for help on a quandry. Why haul rocks to Mexico?? Rereading the posts it seemed a plausable answer was pointed out by Tracy in the form of the "Cave" story and that is the basis of my second post.
Thinking about this on the plane (and in some lame meetings) it struck me that to think ore was hauled to Mexico is rather short sighted. They had to haul ore to a smelter. The smelter only had to be in a safe location and that is not necessarily in Mexico. After all, firing up a smelter in apache territiory would probably not be a smart thing to do.
Adamsville and the twin buttes seems interesting in this regard. Haul the ore to a safe haven for processing and the subsequent trip home to Mexico.
Sorry I didn't respond sooner but I had to travel for work and was out of town for awhile.
In response to your query, I have no additional information to add to the massacre story. I have no team, am a member of a team, or even a specific area of interest in the mountains. I do look out my window every day and see the Supes calling me. I am essentually a student on this forum willing to pose questions to ponder which I cannot answer. I have been in the mountains many times as a tourist more than anything. So I hope that clears up any misrepresentation I may have promoted about my knowledge of these wonderful legends. I also hope, by stating this, I do not alienate anyone from responding to any of my posts in the future.
I do, through deductive reasoning, feel that the massacre story is pertinent to the Lost Dutchman but not to Jesuit hoard. My post, was simply an attempt to ask for help on a quandry. Why haul rocks to Mexico?? Rereading the posts it seemed a plausable answer was pointed out by Tracy in the form of the "Cave" story and that is the basis of my second post.
Thinking about this on the plane (and in some lame meetings) it struck me that to think ore was hauled to Mexico is rather short sighted. They had to haul ore to a smelter. The smelter only had to be in a safe location and that is not necessarily in Mexico. After all, firing up a smelter in apache territiory would probably not be a smart thing to do.
Adamsville and the twin buttes seems interesting in this regard. Haul the ore to a safe haven for processing and the subsequent trip home to Mexico.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The Coke Ovens
Knun,
You are correct. The coke ovens, although a bit of a hike from the Superstitions, is on the main trail to Mexico.
Your grasp on this legend is no worse than any other member of this forum. We are all trying to make educated guesses as to what happened, and most of us are working with the same historical facts and folklore.
Keep asking the questions, it could end up giving someone the answer.
Alienating someone is a given. Since I am the Pro in that field, take no advise from me.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
You are correct. The coke ovens, although a bit of a hike from the Superstitions, is on the main trail to Mexico.
Your grasp on this legend is no worse than any other member of this forum. We are all trying to make educated guesses as to what happened, and most of us are working with the same historical facts and folklore.
Keep asking the questions, it could end up giving someone the answer.
Alienating someone is a given. Since I am the Pro in that field, take no advise from me.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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RU Kidding
- Greenhorn
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2002 5:01 pm
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Coke Ovens
RUK,
If my memory serves me correctly, which would be a real shock, those ovens were built on the ruins of much older ones. Aurum would have that information if he is around.
We are coming down to Phoenix to check out the Stone Maps this Sat. and give the Museum a little support.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
If my memory serves me correctly, which would be a real shock, those ovens were built on the ruins of much older ones. Aurum would have that information if he is around.
We are coming down to Phoenix to check out the Stone Maps this Sat. and give the Museum a little support.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]