If the Horse map leads to the Superstitions from the south it would seem reasonable to me that the reversed D with the two bars could be a depiction of the burial of the two stone trail maps, which you are supposed to find once you get there. Once you had the trail maps in hand the location of the reversed D would be known 'cause you just uncovered them. You would then start from a known point.
Were this the interpretation I would expect the D to be flat side down which it is not.
The stone map trail may enter on the west side of the mountain but I propose the reversed D does not tell us that. If it does enter from the west, the information needs to come from somewhere else.
Would anyone else care to throw out some possibilities for the decode
of the reversed D? Azmula made his proposal. I made mine. How many
other ideas are there?
I consider the maps real and no hoax, obviously
Harry
Stone map reversed D with two bars
Hi Harry,
Well, just for yuks, Richard Robinson interprets the backwards D as the floor plan for Casa Grande. His interpretation led him to think there was something buried there, and some sort of ground-penetrating imaging has determined that something actually is buried right where he said it would be. I don't believe he's had any luck getting permission to excavate, though.
This is all from memory, I may have some details wrong. But I think the gist of it is accurate.
To me the backwards D looks like a toaster.
Say, where is Robinson, anyway? I would think he'd be active on this forum. Or maybe he is.
Well, just for yuks, Richard Robinson interprets the backwards D as the floor plan for Casa Grande. His interpretation led him to think there was something buried there, and some sort of ground-penetrating imaging has determined that something actually is buried right where he said it would be. I don't believe he's had any luck getting permission to excavate, though.
This is all from memory, I may have some details wrong. But I think the gist of it is accurate.
To me the backwards D looks like a toaster.
Say, where is Robinson, anyway? I would think he'd be active on this forum. Or maybe he is.
The Jesuit Treasure of the Superstition Mountains
DELETED
Last edited by azmula on Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stone map reversed D with two bars
Azmula,
I accept your interpretation of the reversed D. That gives us two direction symbols next to each other pointing in nearly opposite directions. I'm not sure what to make of that yet.
Do you expect your route to have man made markings still visible today?
Harry
I accept your interpretation of the reversed D. That gives us two direction symbols next to each other pointing in nearly opposite directions. I'm not sure what to make of that yet.
Do you expect your route to have man made markings still visible today?
Harry
Concurrance
I agree. I am not a Stone Map person. But azmula's articles are interesting from a historic perspective and from the discussion of the markings. They have been very enjoyable reading.
Good job.
Good job.
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Joe Ribaudo
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"D"
Harry,
I assume it is appropriate to welcome you to the forum as I have not seen you post before. If you are someone else with a new name, I revoke my welcome.
I believe there is no decoding required. It may just be that the "D" has no meaning to the maps. I also don't believe that the horse or the priest map lead to a map burial site or anything else. There are clues to the identity of the creator of the horse map. If the horse map is to lead you to the trail maps, why were they all together? If the maps were to be hidden or stored in a church celler, why did they need to be made of stone? Wouldn't it make more sense to create large stone maps to mines and treasure, bury them close by, and then make smaller (coded maps) to take back to mexico showing the location of the trail maps? Why keep them all together?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I assume it is appropriate to welcome you to the forum as I have not seen you post before. If you are someone else with a new name, I revoke my welcome.
I believe there is no decoding required. It may just be that the "D" has no meaning to the maps. I also don't believe that the horse or the priest map lead to a map burial site or anything else. There are clues to the identity of the creator of the horse map. If the horse map is to lead you to the trail maps, why were they all together? If the maps were to be hidden or stored in a church celler, why did they need to be made of stone? Wouldn't it make more sense to create large stone maps to mines and treasure, bury them close by, and then make smaller (coded maps) to take back to mexico showing the location of the trail maps? Why keep them all together?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
No Answers?
rgm, Harry, Azmula, Wiz,
Anyone want to take a stab at the questions I asked? I don't want to interrupt the flow here, but you never know where your answers may take us.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Anyone want to take a stab at the questions I asked? I don't want to interrupt the flow here, but you never know where your answers may take us.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Joe,
I don't know the answers to your questions.
I believe the reversed D is a distance measurement only. Either the cross
overides its direction measurement or it doesn't carry one.
If that is true, one should be able locate where the stones were buried. I
will try that this fall. Beyond that I don't know much. It does not seem
logical that they would all be buried in the same area. It does not
seem logical that they would intend to carry around stone tablets.
Azmula says the stones weren't buried. Local history says different.
It isn't really important to me and our goals who is correct but it would
be nice to know.
I doubt very much they buried anything in a cave. I bet there isn't a
cave in the Superstitions that hasn't felt a pick or seen a metal detector.
I am new to the forum. I am not new to the Superstition's. I need to get off
my butt and post my story about riding a Honda 450 street bike to
Palomino Butte and return at 1AM in the morning. I don't think it could
be done today. The crossing of Boulder canyon seems too rough.
I remember crossing Parker Pass and hitting a bump so hard the
only thing touching the bike was my hands. Yes it was just as illegal then
as it is today.
Bring it on. I'll talk with you, till my team members slap me silly.
Azmula, we all appreciated your articles. Good luck this season.
Harry
I don't know the answers to your questions.
I believe the reversed D is a distance measurement only. Either the cross
overides its direction measurement or it doesn't carry one.
If that is true, one should be able locate where the stones were buried. I
will try that this fall. Beyond that I don't know much. It does not seem
logical that they would all be buried in the same area. It does not
seem logical that they would intend to carry around stone tablets.
Azmula says the stones weren't buried. Local history says different.
It isn't really important to me and our goals who is correct but it would
be nice to know.
I doubt very much they buried anything in a cave. I bet there isn't a
cave in the Superstitions that hasn't felt a pick or seen a metal detector.
I am new to the forum. I am not new to the Superstition's. I need to get off
my butt and post my story about riding a Honda 450 street bike to
Palomino Butte and return at 1AM in the morning. I don't think it could
be done today. The crossing of Boulder canyon seems too rough.
I remember crossing Parker Pass and hitting a bump so hard the
only thing touching the bike was my hands. Yes it was just as illegal then
as it is today.
Bring it on. I'll talk with you, till my team members slap me silly.
Azmula, we all appreciated your articles. Good luck this season.
Harry
Joe,
I'm not at all well-versed in Stone Mapology, so my opinions dont carry much in the way of authority. But I'll take a stab at your questions:
1) I think the reverse D must have meaning. Those tablets were not easy to make, and I doubt that there is anything on them that doesn't need to be there. If, by clues to the creator's identity, you mean the "Manuel" and "Pedro" scratched into them, I agree with whoever pointed out that those words look to have been scratched in later, probably to support the theory of someone who came along long afterwards. I don't believe they were part of the original maps.
2) Wherever the maps were discovered, I don't think that was the resting place intended when they were created. It's entirely possible that one acts as a locater for the others when they are in the proper place(s). If they were "liberated" by someone and hidden, that would invalidate any relative positional information they might contain.
3) It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to make stone maps anyway. But, since they are there, let's suppose they were made to create a map that would survive the centuries. This map would then reasonably be stored in a known location where it would be safe, and available for authorized people to consult whenever desired. So, I think it would make more sense to have the more transportable versions for travelling.
Again, remember that I have far less knowledge of the Stone Maps than most anyone else here, so this is all just my opinion based on what seems reasonable to me. I have no position or theory to defend here, I'm just talking.
I'm not at all well-versed in Stone Mapology, so my opinions dont carry much in the way of authority. But I'll take a stab at your questions:
1) I think the reverse D must have meaning. Those tablets were not easy to make, and I doubt that there is anything on them that doesn't need to be there. If, by clues to the creator's identity, you mean the "Manuel" and "Pedro" scratched into them, I agree with whoever pointed out that those words look to have been scratched in later, probably to support the theory of someone who came along long afterwards. I don't believe they were part of the original maps.
2) Wherever the maps were discovered, I don't think that was the resting place intended when they were created. It's entirely possible that one acts as a locater for the others when they are in the proper place(s). If they were "liberated" by someone and hidden, that would invalidate any relative positional information they might contain.
3) It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to make stone maps anyway. But, since they are there, let's suppose they were made to create a map that would survive the centuries. This map would then reasonably be stored in a known location where it would be safe, and available for authorized people to consult whenever desired. So, I think it would make more sense to have the more transportable versions for travelling.
Again, remember that I have far less knowledge of the Stone Maps than most anyone else here, so this is all just my opinion based on what seems reasonable to me. I have no position or theory to defend here, I'm just talking.
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The Reverse "D"
rgm and Wiz,
The "D" may or may not be reversed. It could be the perspective of where you are when you see it. If you were on the trail it could just be something natural that confirms you are on the correct path. You will notice there is another "D" on the maps that is also not in the correct position.
Thanks for your replies. You obviously have something to say, no need to be bashful. The fact that someone may disagree with your comments or even ridicule them has no down side for any of us. It only shows that there may be another way of looking at the evidence that we may not have considered previously. As rgm said, "Bring it on".
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
The "D" may or may not be reversed. It could be the perspective of where you are when you see it. If you were on the trail it could just be something natural that confirms you are on the correct path. You will notice there is another "D" on the maps that is also not in the correct position.
Thanks for your replies. You obviously have something to say, no need to be bashful. The fact that someone may disagree with your comments or even ridicule them has no down side for any of us. It only shows that there may be another way of looking at the evidence that we may not have considered previously. As rgm said, "Bring it on".
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kenworthy
As an initial reader of Kenworthy's books, his reference to "D"s is that they are "directional change markers" that tell the trail follower to go in another direction. Kenworthy also stated that distortions in signs usually meant using that distortion for a directional marker.
Therefore, a "D" with a set of tails off the straight back would mean change direction in the direction of the tails.
Note: The tail could go either direction on the straight line created by the tail!
The map's "D" may only flag the reader to expect a "D" on the trail that the map directed tham to follow. On page 49 of reasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman emphasis is made of a "D" trail marker and how the direction is located from the "D" marker.
Therefore, a "D" with a set of tails off the straight back would mean change direction in the direction of the tails.
Note: The tail could go either direction on the straight line created by the tail!
The map's "D" may only flag the reader to expect a "D" on the trail that the map directed tham to follow. On page 49 of reasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman emphasis is made of a "D" trail marker and how the direction is located from the "D" marker.
Charlie
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Joe Ribaudo
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"D"
Charlie,
Thanks for your reply. You have given a plausable explanation, using Kenworthy's definations of Spanish miners signs. Are they signs from Spanish times, or did someone else read Kenworthy's sources?
The fact that (it is claimed) all of the maps were found together buried outside the Superstitions, is troubling. If I believed that was true, I would know that it is all a hoax. I put my trust in the visual proof and not the story. Kind of like buying stock, not always a good idea to buy on the story.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Thanks for your reply. You have given a plausable explanation, using Kenworthy's definations of Spanish miners signs. Are they signs from Spanish times, or did someone else read Kenworthy's sources?
The fact that (it is claimed) all of the maps were found together buried outside the Superstitions, is troubling. If I believed that was true, I would know that it is all a hoax. I put my trust in the visual proof and not the story. Kind of like buying stock, not always a good idea to buy on the story.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
My Kingdom for a Horse
Oh to have the right tool for the right job. I am too sick of "jerry rigging" with make-do tools.
If only someone had a copy of the King of Spain's Ordinance of 1584 that dictated the mine trail markers to obtain an authorized mine... I would like a copy.
Anyone?
That is the tool that should define what needs to be found to track the authorized mines that meet Spanish criteria.
Everything I am doing is a guess based upon someone else's work. The spot I plan to explore drew my attention because pointers that lead to converging pointers and multiple images of heads and skulls from 300 feet across, 100 feet across, to 30 feet across. These objects I think I see are overlaced, interspaced and do not appear to be of natural origin.
Within this area is what I believe is the fallen statue, a reversed lighting effect that appears to be a cave instead of a raised bush, and a path (shown as a narrow band of white/reflective ground) leading to a dark spot in a mound. All from aerial photoimages.
I will ride my hunches to what ends they show.
The "D" is only one marker of many. On any marker, the distortions to a shape are more significant than the shape. An "A" can point in 8 directions: along the straight lines in either direction and spliting the angle at the point. The distorted line takes emphasis over the other three lines.
I will find out how well my guesses are when I visit the Coronado National Forest.
Then the Superstitions
If only someone had a copy of the King of Spain's Ordinance of 1584 that dictated the mine trail markers to obtain an authorized mine... I would like a copy.
Anyone?
That is the tool that should define what needs to be found to track the authorized mines that meet Spanish criteria.
Everything I am doing is a guess based upon someone else's work. The spot I plan to explore drew my attention because pointers that lead to converging pointers and multiple images of heads and skulls from 300 feet across, 100 feet across, to 30 feet across. These objects I think I see are overlaced, interspaced and do not appear to be of natural origin.
Within this area is what I believe is the fallen statue, a reversed lighting effect that appears to be a cave instead of a raised bush, and a path (shown as a narrow band of white/reflective ground) leading to a dark spot in a mound. All from aerial photoimages.
I will ride my hunches to what ends they show.
The "D" is only one marker of many. On any marker, the distortions to a shape are more significant than the shape. An "A" can point in 8 directions: along the straight lines in either direction and spliting the angle at the point. The distorted line takes emphasis over the other three lines.
I will find out how well my guesses are when I visit the Coronado National Forest.
Then the Superstitions
Charlie