There are many stories of Jesuits having mines and using the natives to work them. I have read a great deal of historical works, both Jesuit and non-Jesuit dealing with New Spain. There is no real evidence to support this legend. There is a great deal of documentation that shows just the opposite.
The mines of New Spain were privately owned and used convict, slave and professional miners to do the work. That is not to say that native Indians were not part of that work force. Many were convicts and for a number of reasons. Not wearing clothing was sufficient reason to become a covict.
While it has been stated that "The shipments of gold and silver from the missions had dwindled from the expectations of the King and he felt that the royal treasure was being cached by the Jesuits for use by the church.",
it would be interesting to see any documentation of that "fact".
Although mines are mentioned in a large number of Jesuit "letters" from the time and there were many Missions located close to major mining, there are other reasons for that proximity rather than Jesuit involvement
in running or overseeing the work.
While I have called the treasure that I believe to be in the Superstitions a Jesuit Treasure, It seems much more likely that it is the King's Royal Fifth that was being hidden by the mine owners for their own enrichment. That brings us back to a family called "Peralta".
Anyone seen some historical documents that disprove what I have stated here?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Jesuit Mines?
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Joe Ribaudo
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No Response?
I started this topic on Oct. 21 and there have been 54 views without a single response.
It seems to me that a good method of research here would be to find out if there are any verifiable historical documents for any claims of a Jesuit Treasure. I know that the LDM is the primary direction that this forum is pointing, but the number of views of the Stone Map topics and the number of replies show a high interest in a Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions.
The natural assumption here, is that no one has seen any reliable documentation showing Jesuit involvement in mining, using Indian labor or the existence of any Jesuit Treasure. That excepts people like Azmula,
who will have sources in his book.
There is a small book by Choral Pepper named "BAJA CALIFORNIA: Vanished Missions, Lost Treasures, Strange Stories Tall and True" that is an interesting read on Missions in Baja California. Another good book dealing with Jesuit History is, "Early Jesuit Missions in Tarahumara" by, Peter Masten Dunne, S.J., Ph.D. For another historical book originally written as a journal and diary around 1698 by Father Kino and translated by Herbert E. Bolton, Ph. D. Try to find a copy of "Kino's Historical Memoir of Pimeria Alta". Azmula may have recomended one or more of these books in an earlier post.
Anyone interested in the possibility of Jesuit Mining and Treasures, should
look into the available historical literature which is massive and readily available to anyone. Unless you have a good friend who happens to be a Jesuit Priest it is unlikely you will get much information from that quarter.
Searching for the "truth", which may not conform to the accepted written history of the Jesuits, is not an easy task. Using the Treasure Hunting fraternity as a source for this information may not be all that reliable.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
It seems to me that a good method of research here would be to find out if there are any verifiable historical documents for any claims of a Jesuit Treasure. I know that the LDM is the primary direction that this forum is pointing, but the number of views of the Stone Map topics and the number of replies show a high interest in a Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions.
The natural assumption here, is that no one has seen any reliable documentation showing Jesuit involvement in mining, using Indian labor or the existence of any Jesuit Treasure. That excepts people like Azmula,
who will have sources in his book.
There is a small book by Choral Pepper named "BAJA CALIFORNIA: Vanished Missions, Lost Treasures, Strange Stories Tall and True" that is an interesting read on Missions in Baja California. Another good book dealing with Jesuit History is, "Early Jesuit Missions in Tarahumara" by, Peter Masten Dunne, S.J., Ph.D. For another historical book originally written as a journal and diary around 1698 by Father Kino and translated by Herbert E. Bolton, Ph. D. Try to find a copy of "Kino's Historical Memoir of Pimeria Alta". Azmula may have recomended one or more of these books in an earlier post.
Anyone interested in the possibility of Jesuit Mining and Treasures, should
look into the available historical literature which is massive and readily available to anyone. Unless you have a good friend who happens to be a Jesuit Priest it is unlikely you will get much information from that quarter.
Searching for the "truth", which may not conform to the accepted written history of the Jesuits, is not an easy task. Using the Treasure Hunting fraternity as a source for this information may not be all that reliable.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jesuits Mine's
Joe,
I have only seen one book that actually mentions mines, it is " Rudo Ensayo " It was writtenh by Juan Nentvig, a Jesuit Priest describing the area of Sonora and Arizona in 1764. In chapter V entitled " Indian Tribes of Sonora " he goes into detail describing all the bad qualities of the indians back then. He says that indians were basically ignorant, showed ingratitude and basically lazy. He says that all of the items that they basically needed back then came from mining camps (pg. 55). But he doesn't say who was in charge or who was at the mining camps. Who else could have been out there at the time?
In chapter IX under section one: Mining camps and Settlements of Spainiards. There are a few mines that he mentions and says what they were producing. He mentions discoving silver for mining as well. I have not read all of that chapter yet but there is alot mentined here and even gives latitude and longitude as t one of the locations ( Real d la Santisma Trinidad ).
To summarize he says that on April 13, 1764 there were:
22 Mining Sites, Spanish settlements and five presidios's
48 Depopulated mining sites
2 Inhabited estancias and ranches
126 Depopulated estancias and ranches
Were there Spanish Colonizers in the area with the Jesuits in the 1700's? If there were, could they have been the ones's enslaving indians to work in mines? If there were colonizers, how could they have gotten the Iindians to work the mines for them?
I, like you have read alot on this subject, and most of what I have read has the same underlying tone to it, indians were enslaved to work the mines. There has to be documentation on this elsewhere other than in this particular book.
Nice thread Joe,
Rochha
I have only seen one book that actually mentions mines, it is " Rudo Ensayo " It was writtenh by Juan Nentvig, a Jesuit Priest describing the area of Sonora and Arizona in 1764. In chapter V entitled " Indian Tribes of Sonora " he goes into detail describing all the bad qualities of the indians back then. He says that indians were basically ignorant, showed ingratitude and basically lazy. He says that all of the items that they basically needed back then came from mining camps (pg. 55). But he doesn't say who was in charge or who was at the mining camps. Who else could have been out there at the time?
In chapter IX under section one: Mining camps and Settlements of Spainiards. There are a few mines that he mentions and says what they were producing. He mentions discoving silver for mining as well. I have not read all of that chapter yet but there is alot mentined here and even gives latitude and longitude as t one of the locations ( Real d la Santisma Trinidad ).
To summarize he says that on April 13, 1764 there were:
22 Mining Sites, Spanish settlements and five presidios's
48 Depopulated mining sites
2 Inhabited estancias and ranches
126 Depopulated estancias and ranches
Were there Spanish Colonizers in the area with the Jesuits in the 1700's? If there were, could they have been the ones's enslaving indians to work in mines? If there were colonizers, how could they have gotten the Iindians to work the mines for them?
I, like you have read alot on this subject, and most of what I have read has the same underlying tone to it, indians were enslaved to work the mines. There has to be documentation on this elsewhere other than in this particular book.
Nice thread Joe,
Rochha
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Joe Ribaudo
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Mines in New Spain
Rochha,
Good post. It is obvious you are well read on the history of the Jesuits in New Spain.
There is some debate as to the author of "Rudo Ensayo". When Guiteras Eusebio translated the work around 1950, he did not know the author, other than it being the work of a Jesuit Priest. Many historians use "Rudo Ensayo" as a reference. Dr. Bolton believes it is the work of Father Juan
Nentvig or Nentwig or Nentuig depending on what author is quoting the reference.
While some of the Jesuits had a low opinion of the Indians they were converting, it was not shared by all of the Padres. Certain tribes were superior to others in the eyes of the Jesuits. Over all, I believe many of the appraisals of the natives were fair and truthful.
I don't find the Jesuits involved in any way with the enslavement of their charges. The King of Spain also wanted the Indians treated fairly and paid for any labor they performed. There were many "Spanish Colonizers" in all corners of New Spain. They were part of the reason for the Missions being located where they were. They were also one of the major reasons for the problems the Jesuits encountered. They did enslave, torture and mistreat the native population. This was in direct disobedience of the many royal cedulas from the King of Spain, and there are many letters from the Jesuits complaining of their treatment.
Santisima Trinidad de la California was a province. It was claimed for the King on April 5, 1684 by Admiral, Don Isidro Atondo y Antillion who was the governor of Sinaloa. Fathers Kino and Goni took ecclesiastical possession on the same day. They abandoned the area on July 14, 1684 because of a lack of supplies and hostile Indians.
You will find documentation for the mistreatment and enslavement of the Indians in almost every book, document and journal written by the Jesuits and non-Jesuit historians. It was not a Jesuit practice to mistreat the natives. As it was, many died for the sins of others.
I am still waiting to see the reliable documentation of Jesuits enslaving and working the Indians in mines for the enrichment of the Order.
Thank you for the kind words.
Respectfully,
Joe
Good post. It is obvious you are well read on the history of the Jesuits in New Spain.
There is some debate as to the author of "Rudo Ensayo". When Guiteras Eusebio translated the work around 1950, he did not know the author, other than it being the work of a Jesuit Priest. Many historians use "Rudo Ensayo" as a reference. Dr. Bolton believes it is the work of Father Juan
Nentvig or Nentwig or Nentuig depending on what author is quoting the reference.
While some of the Jesuits had a low opinion of the Indians they were converting, it was not shared by all of the Padres. Certain tribes were superior to others in the eyes of the Jesuits. Over all, I believe many of the appraisals of the natives were fair and truthful.
I don't find the Jesuits involved in any way with the enslavement of their charges. The King of Spain also wanted the Indians treated fairly and paid for any labor they performed. There were many "Spanish Colonizers" in all corners of New Spain. They were part of the reason for the Missions being located where they were. They were also one of the major reasons for the problems the Jesuits encountered. They did enslave, torture and mistreat the native population. This was in direct disobedience of the many royal cedulas from the King of Spain, and there are many letters from the Jesuits complaining of their treatment.
Santisima Trinidad de la California was a province. It was claimed for the King on April 5, 1684 by Admiral, Don Isidro Atondo y Antillion who was the governor of Sinaloa. Fathers Kino and Goni took ecclesiastical possession on the same day. They abandoned the area on July 14, 1684 because of a lack of supplies and hostile Indians.
You will find documentation for the mistreatment and enslavement of the Indians in almost every book, document and journal written by the Jesuits and non-Jesuit historians. It was not a Jesuit practice to mistreat the natives. As it was, many died for the sins of others.
I am still waiting to see the reliable documentation of Jesuits enslaving and working the Indians in mines for the enrichment of the Order.
Thank you for the kind words.
Respectfully,
Joe
Mines
Joe,
In the Arizona Mines and minerals Museum there are two silver bars with Kino's name on one of them dated 1697. They are on loan to the museum from someone. It says these bars were used for trading back then.When I first saw them I thought to myself there is the proof right here that they were engadged in mining. Some people would lead you to believe that these silver bars were the result of them being shrewd businessmen back then from the sale of crops and cattle. I think otherwise, it shows me they were able to smelt or and stamp someones name on it, Kino. I say where there's smoke there is fire. If that is not proof, I dont know what is. Maybe Charles Polzner should take a look at these silver bars, there is a man living in denial.
I have also read accts. of mission inventories that were taken after the expulsion and they did not have a whole lot ( ore and gold or silver artifacts of some kinds)at the missions, I know some were out in the open for everyone to see at the mission. Supposedly this is an indication that they did not engadge in mining either. Think about it, if you were doing mining, would you leave anything at the mission to tell anyone that you were amassing wealth?
These colonizers back then, were they hooked up with the Jesuit Priest's doing work for them as well, or were they able to keep what they were mining? I cant help but think that they were working together.
Also, the well documented Indian Rebellions, had to be a direct result of their mistreatment from someone!
Rochha
In the Arizona Mines and minerals Museum there are two silver bars with Kino's name on one of them dated 1697. They are on loan to the museum from someone. It says these bars were used for trading back then.When I first saw them I thought to myself there is the proof right here that they were engadged in mining. Some people would lead you to believe that these silver bars were the result of them being shrewd businessmen back then from the sale of crops and cattle. I think otherwise, it shows me they were able to smelt or and stamp someones name on it, Kino. I say where there's smoke there is fire. If that is not proof, I dont know what is. Maybe Charles Polzner should take a look at these silver bars, there is a man living in denial.
I have also read accts. of mission inventories that were taken after the expulsion and they did not have a whole lot ( ore and gold or silver artifacts of some kinds)at the missions, I know some were out in the open for everyone to see at the mission. Supposedly this is an indication that they did not engadge in mining either. Think about it, if you were doing mining, would you leave anything at the mission to tell anyone that you were amassing wealth?
These colonizers back then, were they hooked up with the Jesuit Priest's doing work for them as well, or were they able to keep what they were mining? I cant help but think that they were working together.
Also, the well documented Indian Rebellions, had to be a direct result of their mistreatment from someone!
Rochha
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Joe Ribaudo
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Evidence?
Rochha,
Good questions and logical (?) conclusions.
The Missions had many facets. Raising of crops, cattle and other types of animal husbandry were part of that work. They did use the Indians for these endeavours and many of the Missions did it quite well. While they used some of this for the Padres and the Indians sustenance, they also sold some of the excess to the locals and that would include the mines and the miners. They realized a modest income from these sales. In some cases, probably a little more than modest.
Most of the mines in Sonora were rich in Silver. That would have been the "coin of the realm" in which the Jesuits were paid. It is quite possible that Father Kino's name would have been stamped on bars that were slated to be sent to the Jesuits in payment for services. I would be a little suspicious of any "dating" of such a bar. You will find many records of Silver in the documents of the Missions. None of the above proves that the Jesuits used the Indians for mining their own mines.
The real problem for claiming that the Jesuits were engaged in mining is the private mining concerns of the civilians in the area of the Missions. These were not nice people and they would not give up their rights to own any rich mine that they knew of. The names of the Spanish mine owners are well known in history and well documented.
You will find that the "Indian Rebellions" were seldom, if ever, a result of mistreatment by the Jesuits. They were precipitated by the mistreatment of the Indians by the miners and by the nature of their own leaders and Shamans. The loss of power to the Jesuit Order was a major reason for many of those leaders and Shamans to incite the tribes to destroy the Padres and their Missions. This happened many times and is well documented. Find me one document that shows a rebellion that was cause by the enslavement or mistreatment of the Indians by any Jesuit.
The mass of documents, letters, diaries, journals and books that have survived in their original state, leave little room for a Jesuit cover-up of any facts that would show Jesuit involvement in actual mining or enslavement or mistreatment of their charges.
While the historical documents will not support the conclusions you hint at,
that does not mean it did not happen in some limited cases. It was well outside the norm in view of the written record.
You are not alone in your conclusions. The more you read, the less sure you will be of their validity.
Respectfully,
Joe
Good questions and logical (?) conclusions.
The Missions had many facets. Raising of crops, cattle and other types of animal husbandry were part of that work. They did use the Indians for these endeavours and many of the Missions did it quite well. While they used some of this for the Padres and the Indians sustenance, they also sold some of the excess to the locals and that would include the mines and the miners. They realized a modest income from these sales. In some cases, probably a little more than modest.
Most of the mines in Sonora were rich in Silver. That would have been the "coin of the realm" in which the Jesuits were paid. It is quite possible that Father Kino's name would have been stamped on bars that were slated to be sent to the Jesuits in payment for services. I would be a little suspicious of any "dating" of such a bar. You will find many records of Silver in the documents of the Missions. None of the above proves that the Jesuits used the Indians for mining their own mines.
The real problem for claiming that the Jesuits were engaged in mining is the private mining concerns of the civilians in the area of the Missions. These were not nice people and they would not give up their rights to own any rich mine that they knew of. The names of the Spanish mine owners are well known in history and well documented.
You will find that the "Indian Rebellions" were seldom, if ever, a result of mistreatment by the Jesuits. They were precipitated by the mistreatment of the Indians by the miners and by the nature of their own leaders and Shamans. The loss of power to the Jesuit Order was a major reason for many of those leaders and Shamans to incite the tribes to destroy the Padres and their Missions. This happened many times and is well documented. Find me one document that shows a rebellion that was cause by the enslavement or mistreatment of the Indians by any Jesuit.
The mass of documents, letters, diaries, journals and books that have survived in their original state, leave little room for a Jesuit cover-up of any facts that would show Jesuit involvement in actual mining or enslavement or mistreatment of their charges.
While the historical documents will not support the conclusions you hint at,
that does not mean it did not happen in some limited cases. It was well outside the norm in view of the written record.
You are not alone in your conclusions. The more you read, the less sure you will be of their validity.
Respectfully,
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mines
Joe,
I have not seen any documentation that actually says they were mistreated by the Jesuit's, I just happen to feel that is what caused them to rebell when they did. I dont claim to know what happened back then but it is obvious they did in fact enslave indians and mistreat them. I have no documentation to back that up it is just my opinion.
Why would you be suspicous of any date on any silver bars that have Kino's name on it? At least that is what I believe you said in an earlier post. Did you happen to see the two silvers bars at the museum that day?
Your right, the more I read, the less I believe the validity of it.
Rochha
I have not seen any documentation that actually says they were mistreated by the Jesuit's, I just happen to feel that is what caused them to rebell when they did. I dont claim to know what happened back then but it is obvious they did in fact enslave indians and mistreat them. I have no documentation to back that up it is just my opinion.
Why would you be suspicous of any date on any silver bars that have Kino's name on it? At least that is what I believe you said in an earlier post. Did you happen to see the two silvers bars at the museum that day?
Your right, the more I read, the less I believe the validity of it.
Rochha
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Joe Ribaudo
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Enslavement
Rochha,
You are not alone with that feeling. Many believe that is what the Jesuits were doing in the New World. History gives no support for that belief.
For a long time, I believed the same thing. Research has convinced me that history is correct in this case.
The cause of the Indian rebellions is well documented as I mentioned in my last post. There are cases of Jesuits being out of harm's way and returning to minister to their people. Torture and death was their reward. That was a reward that many of them met with open arms.
Many of the members have viewed these posts, and none have come forward with any historical evidence. There are members here who are true historians, and they have remained silent. Aurum is the first one who comes to mind. I expect him to offer proof that I am wrong any day.
As a history fan, rather than a scholar or student, I will welcome that proof.
You said:
"I have not seen any documentation that actually says they were mistreated by the Jesuit's, I just happen to feel that is what caused them to rebell when they did. I dont claim to know what happened back then but it is obvious they did in fact enslave indians and mistreat them. I have no documentation to back that up it is just my opinion."
Joe:
It is a fact that Indians were enslaved and mistreated. It seems that you are saying that it is "obvious" that it was done by Jesuits? Why do you feel that it is "obvious"?
Thank you for your reply.
Respectfully,
Joe
You are not alone with that feeling. Many believe that is what the Jesuits were doing in the New World. History gives no support for that belief.
For a long time, I believed the same thing. Research has convinced me that history is correct in this case.
The cause of the Indian rebellions is well documented as I mentioned in my last post. There are cases of Jesuits being out of harm's way and returning to minister to their people. Torture and death was their reward. That was a reward that many of them met with open arms.
Many of the members have viewed these posts, and none have come forward with any historical evidence. There are members here who are true historians, and they have remained silent. Aurum is the first one who comes to mind. I expect him to offer proof that I am wrong any day.
As a history fan, rather than a scholar or student, I will welcome that proof.
You said:
"I have not seen any documentation that actually says they were mistreated by the Jesuit's, I just happen to feel that is what caused them to rebell when they did. I dont claim to know what happened back then but it is obvious they did in fact enslave indians and mistreat them. I have no documentation to back that up it is just my opinion."
Joe:
It is a fact that Indians were enslaved and mistreated. It seems that you are saying that it is "obvious" that it was done by Jesuits? Why do you feel that it is "obvious"?
Thank you for your reply.
Respectfully,
Joe
Mines
Joe,
Actually I choose a poor chice of a word in " obvious ", I guess what I should have said was it " appears " to me that is what happened, there is so much to read on this subject and it all kinda gives you the same image as to what may have happened, while I know as you say there is no documentation stating that is what happened, I guess I feel it in my gut that they did have indians work the mines. I have no proof for that, just a hunch. At one time I read a thesis someone did on that subject of indian rebellions back then and I swear I think he mentions in it about some of the treatment the indians endured by the priests. I have read so much stuff in 2 years I cant remember who it was that wrote it. I have loaned that to someone to read and I need to get it back from them. I know I got it from Asu but the name of it escapes me at this moment.
As to other historians who are part of this forum who choose not to respond, well I am sure they have their reasons for it and we should respect that. I find it rather interesting to chat with someone else who has the same interest and very knowledgable as well on this subejct. Try to talk to someone at work about it and they start yawning.
I am still rather curious about these colonizers who were with the Jesuits in New Spain. Were these people appointed by the king or did they volutneer? How many were there? Did any of these famalies ever become prominent later somehow by being one of the first out here? Were they aware at the time there was a wealth of ore in the ground to be found? Was the king supposed to get part of what they mined as well? It's my understanding no Jesuit preist was supposed to engage in mining activity, were these people used as their pawns? I know at times they had I believe Viceroys or Visitor Generals that visit the missions from time to time, did these people know of the mining activities as well? I know they were meticulous records keepers, getting a peek at one of their mining books that recorded the activity would be neat to see.
If we are the only ones to respond to each other on this topic, I welcome the opportunity to chat with you on this subject.
Rochha
Actually I choose a poor chice of a word in " obvious ", I guess what I should have said was it " appears " to me that is what happened, there is so much to read on this subject and it all kinda gives you the same image as to what may have happened, while I know as you say there is no documentation stating that is what happened, I guess I feel it in my gut that they did have indians work the mines. I have no proof for that, just a hunch. At one time I read a thesis someone did on that subject of indian rebellions back then and I swear I think he mentions in it about some of the treatment the indians endured by the priests. I have read so much stuff in 2 years I cant remember who it was that wrote it. I have loaned that to someone to read and I need to get it back from them. I know I got it from Asu but the name of it escapes me at this moment.
As to other historians who are part of this forum who choose not to respond, well I am sure they have their reasons for it and we should respect that. I find it rather interesting to chat with someone else who has the same interest and very knowledgable as well on this subejct. Try to talk to someone at work about it and they start yawning.
I am still rather curious about these colonizers who were with the Jesuits in New Spain. Were these people appointed by the king or did they volutneer? How many were there? Did any of these famalies ever become prominent later somehow by being one of the first out here? Were they aware at the time there was a wealth of ore in the ground to be found? Was the king supposed to get part of what they mined as well? It's my understanding no Jesuit preist was supposed to engage in mining activity, were these people used as their pawns? I know at times they had I believe Viceroys or Visitor Generals that visit the missions from time to time, did these people know of the mining activities as well? I know they were meticulous records keepers, getting a peek at one of their mining books that recorded the activity would be neat to see.
If we are the only ones to respond to each other on this topic, I welcome the opportunity to chat with you on this subject.
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Rochha,
There are many books which will satisfy your curiosity concerning the colonizers of New Spain. The following is taken from "Original Narratives of Early American History: Spanish Exploration in the Southwest 1542 -1706" It is edited by Dr. Herbert Bolton who was Professor of American History, University of California. Dr. Bolton is a highly respected historian and one of the best sources you will find.
Page 200:
"Five years later (in 1589) Juan Bautista de Lomas y Colmenares, a wealthy resident of Nueva Galicia, proposed to undertake the task, asking for the right to exclude all other adventurers from territory beyond his own conquests. A contract with Lomas was made by the viceroy on March 11, 1589, but it was not approved by the king, and the new viceroy made an agreement with Francisco de Urdiñola; but before he could fulfil it Urdiñola was arrested on a criminal charge. In 1592 and again in 1595 Lomas attempted to have his contract renewed, but without avail.
While these men were seeking to secure contracts with the king, others entered the coveted field without governmental sanction. In 1590 Gaspar Castaño de Sosa, lieutenant governor in Nuevo León, hearing of the excitement regarding New Mexico, formed his mining camp of Nuevo Almadén, now Monclova, into a colony and started north with more than one hundred and seventy persons.
Crossing the Nadadores, Sabinas, and Rio Grande, he ascended the Salado or Pecos. Reaching a pueblo, probably Pecos, he captured it after a battle, and from there continued his conquest through the Tehua, Queres, and Tiguas towns, having also ascended to Taos. In the midst of his successes he was arrested by Captain Juan Morlete, sent for the purpose from Saltillo by the viceroy."
This book will give you a lot of insight into early Spanish exploration.
Respectfully,
Joe
There are many books which will satisfy your curiosity concerning the colonizers of New Spain. The following is taken from "Original Narratives of Early American History: Spanish Exploration in the Southwest 1542 -1706" It is edited by Dr. Herbert Bolton who was Professor of American History, University of California. Dr. Bolton is a highly respected historian and one of the best sources you will find.
Page 200:
"Five years later (in 1589) Juan Bautista de Lomas y Colmenares, a wealthy resident of Nueva Galicia, proposed to undertake the task, asking for the right to exclude all other adventurers from territory beyond his own conquests. A contract with Lomas was made by the viceroy on March 11, 1589, but it was not approved by the king, and the new viceroy made an agreement with Francisco de Urdiñola; but before he could fulfil it Urdiñola was arrested on a criminal charge. In 1592 and again in 1595 Lomas attempted to have his contract renewed, but without avail.
While these men were seeking to secure contracts with the king, others entered the coveted field without governmental sanction. In 1590 Gaspar Castaño de Sosa, lieutenant governor in Nuevo León, hearing of the excitement regarding New Mexico, formed his mining camp of Nuevo Almadén, now Monclova, into a colony and started north with more than one hundred and seventy persons.
Crossing the Nadadores, Sabinas, and Rio Grande, he ascended the Salado or Pecos. Reaching a pueblo, probably Pecos, he captured it after a battle, and from there continued his conquest through the Tehua, Queres, and Tiguas towns, having also ascended to Taos. In the midst of his successes he was arrested by Captain Juan Morlete, sent for the purpose from Saltillo by the viceroy."
This book will give you a lot of insight into early Spanish exploration.
Respectfully,
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe,
Thanks for the reference, I am familiar with Dr. Bolton I have his book " Rim of Christendom " about Kino. I will see if I can get the book from Asu, reading what you posted was intersting.
What do you think about the King of Spain at the time of the expulsion? I mean, who was advising him on the Jesuit's? What kind of a person was he? What is the possibility that the Franciscans set the Jesuits up for the expulsion knowing that they might take there place after the expulsion? Or is that too far fetched?
Thanks for you replies,
Rochha
Thanks for the reference, I am familiar with Dr. Bolton I have his book " Rim of Christendom " about Kino. I will see if I can get the book from Asu, reading what you posted was intersting.
What do you think about the King of Spain at the time of the expulsion? I mean, who was advising him on the Jesuit's? What kind of a person was he? What is the possibility that the Franciscans set the Jesuits up for the expulsion knowing that they might take there place after the expulsion? Or is that too far fetched?
Thanks for you replies,
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
More Jesuit History
Rochha,
Your questions have no simple answers. Like many historical events and people, there are a number of valid views.
Here is one view of the Jesuit/Indian relationship. In 1750 The Treaty of Madrid was signed between Portugal and Spain. As a result of this treaty
the Jesuits were expelled from Portuguese territory. The following quote is from The Spanish Empire in America by, C.H. Haring.
"As the Jesuits had been the principal protectors of the numerous Indian tribes in Brazil, their removal allowed for widespread colonial exploitation of indian lands." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
The Franciscans and Dominicans were the primary beneficaries of the Jesuit expulsion. To a lesser degree the Augustinians also took over some of their missions. All of these Orders were in Spain's New World empire before the Jesuits, but none of them were as successful.
"Historical Dictionary of the Spanish Empire" Page 338
"In the eighteenth century, the Jesuits were opposed by the absolute monarchs, who resented their involvement in nationalist politics, and by the Enlightenment liberals, who resented their conservative philosophy."
"Historical Dictionary of the Spanish Empire" Page 339
In 1537, Pope Paul III issued a Papal Bull titled "Sublimis Deus". This was in response to question concerning the "humanity of the Indians of the New World." This is a direct quote from "Pope Paul III and the American Indians" by Lewis Hanke.
"At the time, widespread exploitation of Indian land and labor, through slavery and the encomienda, was decimating the Indian population, even while the Spanish Crown and the Church were intent on converting the natives to Christianity. In the bull, Pope Paul III proclaimed that the Indians were indeed rational human beings capable of conversion to Christianity and that 'they were not to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ...Nor should they in any case be enslaved.' Although the bull gave impetus to the work of people like Bernardino de Minaya and Bartolome de Las Casas who were trying to protect the Indians, it was virtually unenforceable in the New Wrold. Exploitation of the Indians continued unabated." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
That should give you some idea of the Pope's feelings in this matter. Do you believe the Jesuits would disobey the Pope? The position of the Vatican did not change.
From "Marobavi: A Study of an Assimilated Group in Northern Sonora" by, Roger C. Owen comes this passage on page 12:
"In the wake of the missionaries came miners and land developers. For the next one hundred and fifty years, Sonora was the scene of constant turmoil as the clerics attempted to maintain their control over the Indians in the face of the newcomer's demands for laborers. The Jesuits, having formed villages of Indians around their missions, were under constant pressure to release their converts to work in mines and on ranches. In 1686 a royal cedula was sent to New Spain by Don Carlos II which prohibited the employment of new converts in either mines or on estates for a twenty year period after conversion. The practice of taking new converts for such work was cited as one reason for difficulty in introducing Christianity among the Pima Alto (Bolton 1948: 107-109). A later report by a Jesuit states that the Sonora Spaniards were of the "worst sort" and that by their bad example to the Indians who were lured to the mines, they greatly hindered the propagation of religion (Treutlein 1949: 241-242). This statement by Padre Pfefferkorn was wtitten 1794-95 of the period just before the expulsion of the Jesuits in 1767." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
You now know the position of the King of Spain. That position, also, did not change.
For an excellent explanation of the reasons and behind the scenes machinations that led to the expulsion of the Jesuits from the New World, you should read, Pages 371 through 374 in "Antigua California: Mission and Colony on the Peninsular Frontier" by, Harry W. Crosby. While I have the book in front of me, it is a bit much in a reply that is already too long.
Respectfully,
Joe
Your questions have no simple answers. Like many historical events and people, there are a number of valid views.
Here is one view of the Jesuit/Indian relationship. In 1750 The Treaty of Madrid was signed between Portugal and Spain. As a result of this treaty
the Jesuits were expelled from Portuguese territory. The following quote is from The Spanish Empire in America by, C.H. Haring.
"As the Jesuits had been the principal protectors of the numerous Indian tribes in Brazil, their removal allowed for widespread colonial exploitation of indian lands." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
The Franciscans and Dominicans were the primary beneficaries of the Jesuit expulsion. To a lesser degree the Augustinians also took over some of their missions. All of these Orders were in Spain's New World empire before the Jesuits, but none of them were as successful.
"Historical Dictionary of the Spanish Empire" Page 338
"In the eighteenth century, the Jesuits were opposed by the absolute monarchs, who resented their involvement in nationalist politics, and by the Enlightenment liberals, who resented their conservative philosophy."
"Historical Dictionary of the Spanish Empire" Page 339
In 1537, Pope Paul III issued a Papal Bull titled "Sublimis Deus". This was in response to question concerning the "humanity of the Indians of the New World." This is a direct quote from "Pope Paul III and the American Indians" by Lewis Hanke.
"At the time, widespread exploitation of Indian land and labor, through slavery and the encomienda, was decimating the Indian population, even while the Spanish Crown and the Church were intent on converting the natives to Christianity. In the bull, Pope Paul III proclaimed that the Indians were indeed rational human beings capable of conversion to Christianity and that 'they were not to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ...Nor should they in any case be enslaved.' Although the bull gave impetus to the work of people like Bernardino de Minaya and Bartolome de Las Casas who were trying to protect the Indians, it was virtually unenforceable in the New Wrold. Exploitation of the Indians continued unabated." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
That should give you some idea of the Pope's feelings in this matter. Do you believe the Jesuits would disobey the Pope? The position of the Vatican did not change.
From "Marobavi: A Study of an Assimilated Group in Northern Sonora" by, Roger C. Owen comes this passage on page 12:
"In the wake of the missionaries came miners and land developers. For the next one hundred and fifty years, Sonora was the scene of constant turmoil as the clerics attempted to maintain their control over the Indians in the face of the newcomer's demands for laborers. The Jesuits, having formed villages of Indians around their missions, were under constant pressure to release their converts to work in mines and on ranches. In 1686 a royal cedula was sent to New Spain by Don Carlos II which prohibited the employment of new converts in either mines or on estates for a twenty year period after conversion. The practice of taking new converts for such work was cited as one reason for difficulty in introducing Christianity among the Pima Alto (Bolton 1948: 107-109). A later report by a Jesuit states that the Sonora Spaniards were of the "worst sort" and that by their bad example to the Indians who were lured to the mines, they greatly hindered the propagation of religion (Treutlein 1949: 241-242). This statement by Padre Pfefferkorn was wtitten 1794-95 of the period just before the expulsion of the Jesuits in 1767." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
You now know the position of the King of Spain. That position, also, did not change.
For an excellent explanation of the reasons and behind the scenes machinations that led to the expulsion of the Jesuits from the New World, you should read, Pages 371 through 374 in "Antigua California: Mission and Colony on the Peninsular Frontier" by, Harry W. Crosby. While I have the book in front of me, it is a bit much in a reply that is already too long.
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe,
Thanks again for the informative post, I have gone and checked out the book " Antigua California ", it does give an interesting perspective as to what happened. On page 371 it says that " Service in the New World was distasteful to many highborn Spanish Officials ", why? Also, why would Francisco Anselmo de Armona not want the job as Visitor General? Seems that would be a positon of power. Galvez snatched that job right up and it looks like he and ran with it.
What do you think was the beginning of the end for the Jesuits in the New
World? The book says that it must have been talked about privately in governement circles for years. Which would mean it was talked about before Carlos III inherited the throne. Why didnt Carlos II do anything about it? Could it be the differences between him and Carlos III. Carlos III according to the book was ambitous and experienced. He went on to become the most effective Spain Bourbon rulers. Did he see what was happening in Portugal realizing the wealth that was attained by them being thrown out over there for the crown? The book says he knew power required money, where did the wealth of the jesuits come from in Portugal? I think Carlos III got pissed he wasn't getting his Royal 5th and wanted a little payback.
It says that finally when the Jesuits appeared vulnerable they were charged with undermining the authority of Kings and Popes, how would someone in Spain know if they were vulnerable? It looks like Carlos III knew they had wealth, but where did he think that wealth was coming from (mining activites?)?
I have always thought that the Jesuis became a threat somehow and were feared by many, being only one of the reasons for their expulsion. I think when they came to the New World they had their own agenda. I think they were trying to amass enough wealth that they someday have their own Republic of some sort and be influental enough with the locals that if anyone tried to undermine or remove them it would cause a great situation. One that they could somehow over come, how I dont know becasue they had no armies other than Indians.
When a decision was made finally to break away from the Jesuits the royal command traveled the far reaches of the vast empire with speed and secrecy, wouldnt the show of all these soldiers be hard to explain to the Jesuits as to why they were there? I mean, that had to tell them something was up!
The Jesuit's somehow someway knew someday something like this could happen, other happenings throughtout the world would have shown them that (Portugal, France) and they prepared for it, how or what they did for that I have no idea.
As you can see, reading the passage about the expulsion has raised more questions. I wonder how well liked Jose de Galvez was after the expulsion with the people of New Spain? I'm sure he probably didnt give a s_ _ t.
Joe, thanks for the time you are putting into some of my questions, I really appreciate it. Obviously you have at one time had some of the same questions I have now.
Rochha
Thanks again for the informative post, I have gone and checked out the book " Antigua California ", it does give an interesting perspective as to what happened. On page 371 it says that " Service in the New World was distasteful to many highborn Spanish Officials ", why? Also, why would Francisco Anselmo de Armona not want the job as Visitor General? Seems that would be a positon of power. Galvez snatched that job right up and it looks like he and ran with it.
What do you think was the beginning of the end for the Jesuits in the New
World? The book says that it must have been talked about privately in governement circles for years. Which would mean it was talked about before Carlos III inherited the throne. Why didnt Carlos II do anything about it? Could it be the differences between him and Carlos III. Carlos III according to the book was ambitous and experienced. He went on to become the most effective Spain Bourbon rulers. Did he see what was happening in Portugal realizing the wealth that was attained by them being thrown out over there for the crown? The book says he knew power required money, where did the wealth of the jesuits come from in Portugal? I think Carlos III got pissed he wasn't getting his Royal 5th and wanted a little payback.
It says that finally when the Jesuits appeared vulnerable they were charged with undermining the authority of Kings and Popes, how would someone in Spain know if they were vulnerable? It looks like Carlos III knew they had wealth, but where did he think that wealth was coming from (mining activites?)?
I have always thought that the Jesuis became a threat somehow and were feared by many, being only one of the reasons for their expulsion. I think when they came to the New World they had their own agenda. I think they were trying to amass enough wealth that they someday have their own Republic of some sort and be influental enough with the locals that if anyone tried to undermine or remove them it would cause a great situation. One that they could somehow over come, how I dont know becasue they had no armies other than Indians.
When a decision was made finally to break away from the Jesuits the royal command traveled the far reaches of the vast empire with speed and secrecy, wouldnt the show of all these soldiers be hard to explain to the Jesuits as to why they were there? I mean, that had to tell them something was up!
The Jesuit's somehow someway knew someday something like this could happen, other happenings throughtout the world would have shown them that (Portugal, France) and they prepared for it, how or what they did for that I have no idea.
As you can see, reading the passage about the expulsion has raised more questions. I wonder how well liked Jose de Galvez was after the expulsion with the people of New Spain? I'm sure he probably didnt give a s_ _ t.
Joe, thanks for the time you are putting into some of my questions, I really appreciate it. Obviously you have at one time had some of the same questions I have now.
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Jesuits
Rochha,
Thank you for your comments and questions. It is nice having our own chat line on this subject.
It must be nice having a library that carries a book like "Antigua California". I have many more books setting on my computer desk than our library has on the subject.
It's a good thing this conversation does not turn towards ancient Mesoamerica as I would surely drive Wiz right over the edge with that topic. That is my favorite subject.
Most of your questions will probably find sufficient answeres in the book you are now reading. As you continue reading, past page 371, you will find a lot of answers by the time you are done with page 374.
Jose de Galvez "snatched" the job for good reasons. He was not wealthy and was a minor player in Spanish politics. In other words, it was the chance of a lifetime for him. Armona came from a higher strata than Galvez and he was not well at the time of his "appointment".
Enjoy the book.
Joe
Thank you for your comments and questions. It is nice having our own chat line on this subject.
It must be nice having a library that carries a book like "Antigua California". I have many more books setting on my computer desk than our library has on the subject.
It's a good thing this conversation does not turn towards ancient Mesoamerica as I would surely drive Wiz right over the edge with that topic. That is my favorite subject.
Most of your questions will probably find sufficient answeres in the book you are now reading. As you continue reading, past page 371, you will find a lot of answers by the time you are done with page 374.
Jose de Galvez "snatched" the job for good reasons. He was not wealthy and was a minor player in Spanish politics. In other words, it was the chance of a lifetime for him. Armona came from a higher strata than Galvez and he was not well at the time of his "appointment".
Enjoy the book.
Joe
Books
Joe,
Sorry for delay in gettting back, I have been out of town and didnt get a chance to post before I left.
Yes, it is nice have a library that has books of this nature, the ASU Library has tons of books, most of what you have cited to me. I am going to try and get over there soon and check out a few more.
I think it is neat to have a chat line so to speak on this topic, I, like you, am suprised that as of yet no one else has made a post so far. Maybe we are covering topis that were questiosn in the back of everyone's mind.
I have not yet read past those particular pages but plan on doing so soon, which I am sure will raise more questions.
What is Mesoamerica? Why would that put Wiz over the edge?
I find this topoc most interesting and enjoy your post's as well.
Rochha
Sorry for delay in gettting back, I have been out of town and didnt get a chance to post before I left.
Yes, it is nice have a library that has books of this nature, the ASU Library has tons of books, most of what you have cited to me. I am going to try and get over there soon and check out a few more.
I think it is neat to have a chat line so to speak on this topic, I, like you, am suprised that as of yet no one else has made a post so far. Maybe we are covering topis that were questiosn in the back of everyone's mind.
I have not yet read past those particular pages but plan on doing so soon, which I am sure will raise more questions.
What is Mesoamerica? Why would that put Wiz over the edge?
I find this topoc most interesting and enjoy your post's as well.
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Jesuits
Rochha,
For a little more insight into the "Jesuit mining" subject there is the following passage from p. 166 of "Jesuit Missions in Tarahumara" by,
Peter Masten Dunne, S.J., Ph.D:
"The year before the happening just related gold was discovered in or near Sisoguichic in northern Tarahumara. In 1684 silver mines were found at Coyachic just a few miles northeast of Cusihuiriachic or Mission San Bernabe. Three years later another and richer mine was discovered in the sierra which, close to San Bernabe itself, rises to a pointed and picturesque peak called Monte Cusihuiriachic. This peak, a landmark for miles around, can be descried in the blue distance from almost as far as Carichic.
Each of these discoveries was followed by the inevitable gold rush. Just as the miners rushed into Parral in 1631 when its riches were first discovered, so now to the immense discomfiture of the Missionaries they rushed into the heart of this mission country in north central Tarahumara and into the immediate vicinity of the two missions, San Bernabe Cusihuiriachic and San Ignacio Coyachic. Throngs of people came, extensive diggings were begun, houses were built, and smelters erected. Merchants followed in the wake of the miners and after the merchants came ranchers to make their homes in lands that had formerly been too far removed from white habitation to be safe.
Age-old abuses now sprouted like ugly weeds in the heart of Tarahumara. The rough miner gave an evil example to the neophyte. The Indian was irritated at seeing great sections of his land taken because of the wood they yielded or the grazing facilities they afforded; and, worst of all, there began again the forced labor of the poor Indian -
used by the Spaniards in mines, in the construction of homes, and in personal service.
All of this abuse was against the laws, as we have seen, and it was in vain that the missionaries would point it out to the Spaniards, unless there was at hand the strong secular arm to enforce the provisions of the law. Such guardians of the law had been Hurdaide years before in Sinola, and Juan Antonio de Sarria at the mid-century; but such was not the Governor of Nueva Vizcaya at the end of the 1620's, the period with which we are now concerned."
Perhaps a different picture than what you believe.
I have a signed first edition of this book and it is one of my favorites.
Respectfully,
Joe
For a little more insight into the "Jesuit mining" subject there is the following passage from p. 166 of "Jesuit Missions in Tarahumara" by,
Peter Masten Dunne, S.J., Ph.D:
"The year before the happening just related gold was discovered in or near Sisoguichic in northern Tarahumara. In 1684 silver mines were found at Coyachic just a few miles northeast of Cusihuiriachic or Mission San Bernabe. Three years later another and richer mine was discovered in the sierra which, close to San Bernabe itself, rises to a pointed and picturesque peak called Monte Cusihuiriachic. This peak, a landmark for miles around, can be descried in the blue distance from almost as far as Carichic.
Each of these discoveries was followed by the inevitable gold rush. Just as the miners rushed into Parral in 1631 when its riches were first discovered, so now to the immense discomfiture of the Missionaries they rushed into the heart of this mission country in north central Tarahumara and into the immediate vicinity of the two missions, San Bernabe Cusihuiriachic and San Ignacio Coyachic. Throngs of people came, extensive diggings were begun, houses were built, and smelters erected. Merchants followed in the wake of the miners and after the merchants came ranchers to make their homes in lands that had formerly been too far removed from white habitation to be safe.
Age-old abuses now sprouted like ugly weeds in the heart of Tarahumara. The rough miner gave an evil example to the neophyte. The Indian was irritated at seeing great sections of his land taken because of the wood they yielded or the grazing facilities they afforded; and, worst of all, there began again the forced labor of the poor Indian -
used by the Spaniards in mines, in the construction of homes, and in personal service.
All of this abuse was against the laws, as we have seen, and it was in vain that the missionaries would point it out to the Spaniards, unless there was at hand the strong secular arm to enforce the provisions of the law. Such guardians of the law had been Hurdaide years before in Sinola, and Juan Antonio de Sarria at the mid-century; but such was not the Governor of Nueva Vizcaya at the end of the 1620's, the period with which we are now concerned."
Perhaps a different picture than what you believe.
I have a signed first edition of this book and it is one of my favorites.
Respectfully,
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
Jesuit Mines
Joe,
Yes indeed Joe that does add a little more insight. I tried to get that book at the ASU Library but the only one they had was in all spanish. I will try and get that book along with the others that you have given me references to.
Do you know of any books that specifically talk about the Northern End of Pimera Alta during the expulsion?
Thanks again for the interesting information on this topic. At least this topic has something to do with the Lost Dutchman as opposed to some of the other post 's I have been seeing just in the last two days.
Rochha
Yes indeed Joe that does add a little more insight. I tried to get that book at the ASU Library but the only one they had was in all spanish. I will try and get that book along with the others that you have given me references to.
Do you know of any books that specifically talk about the Northern End of Pimera Alta during the expulsion?
Thanks again for the interesting information on this topic. At least this topic has something to do with the Lost Dutchman as opposed to some of the other post 's I have been seeing just in the last two days.
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Jesuit Expulsion from Mexico
Rochha,
Yes, there are a few books that were written by Jesuits who were in Mexico at the time of the expulsion.
One of the best known and respected would be "Missionary in Sonora: the Travel Reports of Joseph Och, S. J., 1755-1767."
Another good source would be "Ducrue's Account of the Expulsion of the Jesuits From Lower California, 1767-1769".
These first two books are from Jesuits who were there during the expulsion.
Finally, I would recomend another of Peter Masten Dunne's fine books in his series on early Jesuits in Mexico, "Pioneer Jesuits in Northern Mexico".
I have all three of these books and you will find them to be exactly what you are looking for.
By the way, I just reread my post in which I quoted Dunne's passage from page 166-167 from "Jesuit Missions in Tarahumara" and found that I had left out an entire line right in the middle. It reads a little differently now.
Thank's for your reply, and good hunting.
Joe
Yes, there are a few books that were written by Jesuits who were in Mexico at the time of the expulsion.
One of the best known and respected would be "Missionary in Sonora: the Travel Reports of Joseph Och, S. J., 1755-1767."
Another good source would be "Ducrue's Account of the Expulsion of the Jesuits From Lower California, 1767-1769".
These first two books are from Jesuits who were there during the expulsion.
Finally, I would recomend another of Peter Masten Dunne's fine books in his series on early Jesuits in Mexico, "Pioneer Jesuits in Northern Mexico".
I have all three of these books and you will find them to be exactly what you are looking for.
By the way, I just reread my post in which I quoted Dunne's passage from page 166-167 from "Jesuit Missions in Tarahumara" and found that I had left out an entire line right in the middle. It reads a little differently now.
Thank's for your reply, and good hunting.
Joe
Joe,
I have read something's since my last post to you and you are correct, nothing in print ( yet ) matches what is being said about this topic. I believe their material was carefully worded to produce the illussion that they had nothing directly to do with mining.
Do you have any idea what the letters S. J. would stand for after a priest signs his name?
Rochha
I have read something's since my last post to you and you are correct, nothing in print ( yet ) matches what is being said about this topic. I believe their material was carefully worded to produce the illussion that they had nothing directly to do with mining.
Do you have any idea what the letters S. J. would stand for after a priest signs his name?
Rochha
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
SJ
Rochha,
Peter is too modest. He is, of course, correct. The Society of Jesus was originally called "The Company of Jesus" by its founder, Saint Ignatius Loyola. There is a lot of history surrounding the name of the Society and the name "Jesuit". It makes interesting reading, but not here.
While the Jesuits accepted their fate in 1767, not all of the populace remained peaceful. I have not spent the time in the archives like someone like Azmula, but I have found no record of any Jesuit trying to escape the expulsion from Mexico. Many believed they would not be imprisoned, and many were simply sent home. The King had ordered that they be well treated and be allowed to keep their personal property. His orders were not carried out by many of his subjects and a great number of the Jesuits suffered greatly. Any who were found in New Spain after the last boat left with their brethren were subject to execution, as ordered by the King.
If you search a little farther, you may find some records of Jesuit owned mines in South America before their expulsion. Have a good time.
Respectfully,
Joe
Peter is too modest. He is, of course, correct. The Society of Jesus was originally called "The Company of Jesus" by its founder, Saint Ignatius Loyola. There is a lot of history surrounding the name of the Society and the name "Jesuit". It makes interesting reading, but not here.
While the Jesuits accepted their fate in 1767, not all of the populace remained peaceful. I have not spent the time in the archives like someone like Azmula, but I have found no record of any Jesuit trying to escape the expulsion from Mexico. Many believed they would not be imprisoned, and many were simply sent home. The King had ordered that they be well treated and be allowed to keep their personal property. His orders were not carried out by many of his subjects and a great number of the Jesuits suffered greatly. Any who were found in New Spain after the last boat left with their brethren were subject to execution, as ordered by the King.
If you search a little farther, you may find some records of Jesuit owned mines in South America before their expulsion. Have a good time.
Respectfully,
Joe
Book.
Joe,
Just a note on a book that I found a few years ago. It was written by a Professor from Stanford. Berkley. I cannot recall his name but the book is called " When Jesus came, the Corn Mothers went away".
It goes into a indepth study of the archives from the Catholic's at Santa Fe.
The author used the birth records of mostly the Native Americans and how they inter-married with the Spanish Soldiers who were at that time on orders from the King of Spain to secure his percent of the wealth.
The book discusses how the Soldiers took advantage of the different cultural differences of the different indian tribes. Some such as the Pueblos were very open to sexual relations with the Soldiers even though they were strangers in their land.
As years of occupation extended the different small groups ( and they are named) of the main Native American Tribes slowly died and then
became extinct. They were mainly centered in the Tri-state area; Utah,
Arizona and New Mexico .
The book sheds light on the fact that alot of the miss-treatment of the natives was from soldiers and not the different Catholic Priests, monks
or other wise. I could be completely ignorant about the whole thing too but, that is pretty much what was stated.
Hope this might help.
Respectfully,
JW
Just a note on a book that I found a few years ago. It was written by a Professor from Stanford. Berkley. I cannot recall his name but the book is called " When Jesus came, the Corn Mothers went away".
It goes into a indepth study of the archives from the Catholic's at Santa Fe.
The author used the birth records of mostly the Native Americans and how they inter-married with the Spanish Soldiers who were at that time on orders from the King of Spain to secure his percent of the wealth.
The book discusses how the Soldiers took advantage of the different cultural differences of the different indian tribes. Some such as the Pueblos were very open to sexual relations with the Soldiers even though they were strangers in their land.
As years of occupation extended the different small groups ( and they are named) of the main Native American Tribes slowly died and then
became extinct. They were mainly centered in the Tri-state area; Utah,
Arizona and New Mexico .
The book sheds light on the fact that alot of the miss-treatment of the natives was from soldiers and not the different Catholic Priests, monks
or other wise. I could be completely ignorant about the whole thing too but, that is pretty much what was stated.
Hope this might help.
Respectfully,
JW
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The Corn Mothers
Bandit,
Thank you for bringing up a really brilliant historical book. Ramon Gutierrez knows his subject. Chicano History and those who have had the pleasure of reading his works are the beneficiaries of that knowledge.
Although his book is worth reading for many reasons, advancing your knowledge of the Jesuits in the New World is not one of them. "When Jesus Came, the Corn Mothers Went Away: Marriage, Sexuality, and Power in New Mexico, 1500-1846" only mentions the Jesuits a few times and then only in passing.
I think we would consider the treatment of the natives by the Catholic Priests of that era as mistreatment and abuse today. They were hard people living in a hard time. The Spaniards, citizens and soldiers alike, treated the Indians with contempt and extreem cruelty.
The "Corn Mother" legends are world-wide, much like the legends of the "great floods". The stories of the "Corn Mothers" were ancient when Estevanico crossed the cornmeal line (symbolically closing the road) into the Zuni village of Hawikuh. That mistake along with his "crazy" words and demands, cost the "Black Katsina" his life. A new history began at that moment in time.
You are correct in your assessment of the book. I wish my memory was as good as yours.
Thank you again.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Thank you for bringing up a really brilliant historical book. Ramon Gutierrez knows his subject. Chicano History and those who have had the pleasure of reading his works are the beneficiaries of that knowledge.
Although his book is worth reading for many reasons, advancing your knowledge of the Jesuits in the New World is not one of them. "When Jesus Came, the Corn Mothers Went Away: Marriage, Sexuality, and Power in New Mexico, 1500-1846" only mentions the Jesuits a few times and then only in passing.
I think we would consider the treatment of the natives by the Catholic Priests of that era as mistreatment and abuse today. They were hard people living in a hard time. The Spaniards, citizens and soldiers alike, treated the Indians with contempt and extreem cruelty.
The "Corn Mother" legends are world-wide, much like the legends of the "great floods". The stories of the "Corn Mothers" were ancient when Estevanico crossed the cornmeal line (symbolically closing the road) into the Zuni village of Hawikuh. That mistake along with his "crazy" words and demands, cost the "Black Katsina" his life. A new history began at that moment in time.
You are correct in your assessment of the book. I wish my memory was as good as yours.
Thank you again.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo