general question
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Testing Conclusions.......
Randy,
"There are many who have found Gold back in those mountains. In the middle 1800's we have a discovery of a large party of Mexicans murdered by Indians and Gold scattered all over the place."
That seems to be a huge overstatement of the facts. Do you have a source for the statement that there was "Gold scattered all over the place"?
"None of this ore seems to come from a known source in Central AZ mines."
The only tests I know of were done by Dr. Glover. One of his conclusions is: "Lastly, of all the ores tested, the ones reportedly recovered from the Superstition Mountains, and only those ores (the Jewelry, Kochera and Camp ores) have a pattern to their gangues not commonly found in central Arizona gold mines."
Waltz did not prospect exclusively in "central Arizona". Prospectors hoarding gold ore, was certainly not a rare habit back then. Many people did not trust banks, government backed money or the fixed price of gold. Like today, some people were willing to bet that the price of gold would go up. Their ore could be buried in the ground with no chance of deterioration and little chance of accidental discovery by others. The ultimate "safe" bank.
Were any comparison tests done on ore from the "Gross Lode" or the "Big Rebel" claims, two known mines that Waltz was associated with? Something to remember is that many claims were fabulously rich at the surface, but pinched out quickly. Waltz was in some of the richest gold producing areas of the state......early.
At a guess, I would imagine that there are many more gold mines that have left no ore for testing, than mines that have. Perhaps Dr. Glover can persuade Ron Feldman to give him a sample from the "new" vein recently discovered in the Mammoth mine for testing. That might settle the question once and for all.....Right? I have only heard the story of this "new vein" from one person, that being you, so I will take it to the bank that it is so. If it turns out that the ore matches the purported "Waltz Ore", one could hardly say that it was found "back in those mountains".
Much of this is just my unqualified opinion, so I could be wrong. As you know, I don't know s#!t about rocks.
The last thing Thomas says about the testing is: "Whether or not my interpretations, my conclusion, are correct will, like Blair's, only be known with subsequent investigation."
Your post, unfortunately for me, was thought provoking.
Take care,
Joe
"There are many who have found Gold back in those mountains. In the middle 1800's we have a discovery of a large party of Mexicans murdered by Indians and Gold scattered all over the place."
That seems to be a huge overstatement of the facts. Do you have a source for the statement that there was "Gold scattered all over the place"?
"None of this ore seems to come from a known source in Central AZ mines."
The only tests I know of were done by Dr. Glover. One of his conclusions is: "Lastly, of all the ores tested, the ones reportedly recovered from the Superstition Mountains, and only those ores (the Jewelry, Kochera and Camp ores) have a pattern to their gangues not commonly found in central Arizona gold mines."
Waltz did not prospect exclusively in "central Arizona". Prospectors hoarding gold ore, was certainly not a rare habit back then. Many people did not trust banks, government backed money or the fixed price of gold. Like today, some people were willing to bet that the price of gold would go up. Their ore could be buried in the ground with no chance of deterioration and little chance of accidental discovery by others. The ultimate "safe" bank.
Were any comparison tests done on ore from the "Gross Lode" or the "Big Rebel" claims, two known mines that Waltz was associated with? Something to remember is that many claims were fabulously rich at the surface, but pinched out quickly. Waltz was in some of the richest gold producing areas of the state......early.
At a guess, I would imagine that there are many more gold mines that have left no ore for testing, than mines that have. Perhaps Dr. Glover can persuade Ron Feldman to give him a sample from the "new" vein recently discovered in the Mammoth mine for testing. That might settle the question once and for all.....Right? I have only heard the story of this "new vein" from one person, that being you, so I will take it to the bank that it is so. If it turns out that the ore matches the purported "Waltz Ore", one could hardly say that it was found "back in those mountains".
Much of this is just my unqualified opinion, so I could be wrong. As you know, I don't know s#!t about rocks.
The last thing Thomas says about the testing is: "Whether or not my interpretations, my conclusion, are correct will, like Blair's, only be known with subsequent investigation."
Your post, unfortunately for me, was thought provoking.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Testing Conclusions.......
Well that was hearsay from someone, so don't take it to the bank. They'd escort you outJoe Ribaudo wrote:I have only heard the story of this "new vein" from one person, that being you, so I will take it to the bank that it is so.
Joe
As for the rest of the questions, well I have no proof of anything as I wasn't there personally. Even the Gold under Waltz's bed could have come from anywhere. Who knows, maybe Holmes made the entire story up and Holmes was actually doing the highgrading.
About the Massacre ore, it was scattered all over the place from what I understand. Not only at the site, but through the mountains too. Ore was found heading SE towards Peralta Trailhead correct? It was also found near Marsh Valley? Also more chunks were found to the NE? Like I said before, I physically wasn't there so what do I know.
What about Silverlock and Malm? They found nothing? Kochera, found nothing? I guess since we weren't there then all of the stories are probably hog wash. Let's just write off everything about the history of the Superstitions as bull$hit since none of us were there and we have no proof any of it took place. The Mexican sandals were probably never found or were brought there by someone lying right? Bark was a liar and never found Gold near Fish Creek too right?
Randy Wright
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Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Randy,
Should I make a statement here, and you ask for a source, I will either tell you it's just a story I heard somewhere.......or I will give you my source.
In replying to my post, you wrote this:
"What about Silverlock and Malm? They found nothing? Kochera, found nothing? I guess since we weren't there then all of the stories are probably hog wash. Let's just write off everything about the history of the Superstitions as bull$hit since none of us were there and we have no proof any of it took place. The Mexican sandals were probably never found or were brought there by someone lying right? Bark was a liar and never found Gold near Fish Creek too right?"
I believe you have gone a bit far-afield in your questions, as they relate to my post. If you feel that little rant was justified, I suppose it was a failure to communicate, on my part. I will do my best to give you a respectful answer to your questions.
Silverlock and Malhm (as spelled by Bark) or Mahlm (as spelled by Dr. Glover) never said they found a thing, as far as I know. Here is part of the story as Bark wrote it in his manuscript:
[One time in Phoenix, Silverlock and I were standing at the bar of a saloon quite early in the morning, and Silverlock had had several drinks when he said, "Mr. Bark, I have been going to quit work up there, but" and he raised his fist and brought it down on the bar and said, "that float never rolled up hill, and I will stay there till I die but what I will find it.]
As you can see, that story has been expanded on a bit by later authors. Not believing that Bark was a liar, believe that answers another of your questions, I will accept the story as he wrote it.
Silverlock and Malhm did not just stumble on that location by accident, but arrived from Idaho with map in hand, and a story from the prospector who gave it to them. It was that prospector who said there was "very rich ore" at that location. Perhaps he described it as rich float lying on top of the ground. Can't imagine he just left it all there for someone else, but hey.....that's just me.
Other than bowman's yarns, I don't write off any stories about he LDM or the Superstition Mountains. I do my best to research them and offer up my opinions for debate. There are times when people actually come up with reliable sources to counter my doubts......or my convictions of "truth". As proof of my habits, you need look no farther than bowman's story of finding Aztec ruins in the Superstitions. Rather than dismiss them out of hand, I pulled "The Diaries Of John Gregory Bourke" off of my bookshelf, and found on page 88 Bourke writes: "Passed a number of old Aztec ruins to-day. Examined one and found it to be the remains of a temple......" Note 12 at the bottom of the page states: [Above "temple" Bourke wrote "teocalli?" the Nahuatl word for "temple".]
On the following page Bourke did a drawing of the site:
I make every effort not to change history one word at a time. Not everyone feels that way, but to each his own.
If you have a source for the gold thingie........I would appreciate hearing about it.
Take care,
Joe
Should I make a statement here, and you ask for a source, I will either tell you it's just a story I heard somewhere.......or I will give you my source.
In replying to my post, you wrote this:
"What about Silverlock and Malm? They found nothing? Kochera, found nothing? I guess since we weren't there then all of the stories are probably hog wash. Let's just write off everything about the history of the Superstitions as bull$hit since none of us were there and we have no proof any of it took place. The Mexican sandals were probably never found or were brought there by someone lying right? Bark was a liar and never found Gold near Fish Creek too right?"
I believe you have gone a bit far-afield in your questions, as they relate to my post. If you feel that little rant was justified, I suppose it was a failure to communicate, on my part. I will do my best to give you a respectful answer to your questions.
Silverlock and Malhm (as spelled by Bark) or Mahlm (as spelled by Dr. Glover) never said they found a thing, as far as I know. Here is part of the story as Bark wrote it in his manuscript:
[One time in Phoenix, Silverlock and I were standing at the bar of a saloon quite early in the morning, and Silverlock had had several drinks when he said, "Mr. Bark, I have been going to quit work up there, but" and he raised his fist and brought it down on the bar and said, "that float never rolled up hill, and I will stay there till I die but what I will find it.]
As you can see, that story has been expanded on a bit by later authors. Not believing that Bark was a liar, believe that answers another of your questions, I will accept the story as he wrote it.
Silverlock and Malhm did not just stumble on that location by accident, but arrived from Idaho with map in hand, and a story from the prospector who gave it to them. It was that prospector who said there was "very rich ore" at that location. Perhaps he described it as rich float lying on top of the ground. Can't imagine he just left it all there for someone else, but hey.....that's just me.
Other than bowman's yarns, I don't write off any stories about he LDM or the Superstition Mountains. I do my best to research them and offer up my opinions for debate. There are times when people actually come up with reliable sources to counter my doubts......or my convictions of "truth". As proof of my habits, you need look no farther than bowman's story of finding Aztec ruins in the Superstitions. Rather than dismiss them out of hand, I pulled "The Diaries Of John Gregory Bourke" off of my bookshelf, and found on page 88 Bourke writes: "Passed a number of old Aztec ruins to-day. Examined one and found it to be the remains of a temple......" Note 12 at the bottom of the page states: [Above "temple" Bourke wrote "teocalli?" the Nahuatl word for "temple".]
On the following page Bourke did a drawing of the site:
I make every effort not to change history one word at a time. Not everyone feels that way, but to each his own.
If you have a source for the gold thingie........I would appreciate hearing about it.
Take care,
Joe
It's just all stuff I've read in books and heard from talking to people Joe. I've never physically seen anyone carry Gold out of the Superstitions so take it for what it's worth. What do I know.Joe Ribaudo wrote:Randy,
Should I make a statement here, and you ask for a source, I will either tell you it's just a story I heard somewhere.......or I will give you my source.
Joe
Now Silver is a different story. I PERSONALLY have found Silver in the Superstition Mountains.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Joe - I haven't read that book, but am I understanding correctly that Bourke claims to have come across seemingly Aztec ruins of a temple somewhere in the Superstitions in 1874?Other than bowman's yarns, I don't write off any stories about he LDM or the Superstition Mountains. I do my best to research them and offer up my opinions for debate. There are times when people actually come up with reliable sources to counter my doubts......or my convictions of "truth". As proof of my habits, you need look no farther than bowman's story of finding Aztec ruins in the Superstitions. Rather than dismiss them out of hand, I pulled "The Diaries Of John Gregory Bourke" off of my bookshelf, and found on page 88 Bourke writes: "Passed a number of old Aztec ruins to-day. Examined one and found it to be the remains of a temple......" Note 12 at the bottom of the page states: [Above "temple" Bourke wrote "teocalli?" the Nahuatl word for "temple".]
On the following page Bourke did a drawing of the site:
I make every effort not to change history one word at a time. Not everyone feels that way, but to each his own.
If you have a source for the gold thingie........I would appreciate hearing about it. Wink
Take care,
Joe
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Close......
Paul,
Not in the Superstitions, but very close.
Take care,
Joe
Not in the Superstitions, but very close.
Take care,
Joe
Mayan/Aztec Ruins
Joe is correct.
Not actually in the Supes, but just to the north...
I have extensively studied the subject, and have determined the Aztec, or someone very, very closely related, built several such temples in the region, and I am aware of at least three locations.
All of the structures are gone, but the environmental impact remains. These structures were built using the same techniques as those built further south. These sites are not readily obvious, but can be located rather easily, if one understands the mindset of the builders. In fact, all three are near paved roads and can be reached by trail. Obviously, all three are within reach of fresh water.
I have taken photos at one location during the summer solstice. Just before noon, the sun shines through a hole in the rock above, illuminating the sacrificial stone like a spotlight. Observing this event was both amazing and saddening, as it became quite obvious we were witnessing primitive, but deadly theater.
However,
I suggest you take my word with a grain of salt, as I am at odds with the academic community on this. I have written articles on the subject that can be found elsewhere on the net.
Laz
Not actually in the Supes, but just to the north...
I have extensively studied the subject, and have determined the Aztec, or someone very, very closely related, built several such temples in the region, and I am aware of at least three locations.
All of the structures are gone, but the environmental impact remains. These structures were built using the same techniques as those built further south. These sites are not readily obvious, but can be located rather easily, if one understands the mindset of the builders. In fact, all three are near paved roads and can be reached by trail. Obviously, all three are within reach of fresh water.
I have taken photos at one location during the summer solstice. Just before noon, the sun shines through a hole in the rock above, illuminating the sacrificial stone like a spotlight. Observing this event was both amazing and saddening, as it became quite obvious we were witnessing primitive, but deadly theater.
However,
I suggest you take my word with a grain of salt, as I am at odds with the academic community on this. I have written articles on the subject that can be found elsewhere on the net.
Laz
Re: Mayan/Aztec Ruins
What an amazing experience that musta' been.lazarus wrote: I have taken photos at one location during the summer solstice. Just before noon, the sun shines through a hole in the rock above, illuminating the sacrificial stone like a spotlight.
Laz
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Randy
Randy,
first, a correction...
according to my files, it was winter solstice (Dec 22nd).
There are two photos already posted in the Members Photo Gallery, page 3, of: Every Picture Tells a Story. The photo in the center of the page... the one featuring the glyphs, is not related.
The first photo shows the sun shining through the gun-sight above, from the alter. The second of the two shows the light in the center of the alter stone.
Looking at the stone, imagine a five foot tall man lying on his back, facing up, his arms extended outward at his sides. (head on the right of the photo, feet at the left) His wrists and ankles are each being held tightly by others, positioned accordingly. Another hold his head. You know the rest of the deal.
I'll see if I can find an artist's rendition. I should have one on file, and if not, I need to get one.
Brad
first, a correction...
according to my files, it was winter solstice (Dec 22nd).
There are two photos already posted in the Members Photo Gallery, page 3, of: Every Picture Tells a Story. The photo in the center of the page... the one featuring the glyphs, is not related.
The first photo shows the sun shining through the gun-sight above, from the alter. The second of the two shows the light in the center of the alter stone.
Looking at the stone, imagine a five foot tall man lying on his back, facing up, his arms extended outward at his sides. (head on the right of the photo, feet at the left) His wrists and ankles are each being held tightly by others, positioned accordingly. Another hold his head. You know the rest of the deal.
I'll see if I can find an artist's rendition. I should have one on file, and if not, I need to get one.
Brad
Explanation
Well,
I guess I can explain it...
but you get my point. It is not something I created. Furthermore, it might best be described as a corona, rather than an aurora.
I'm really off my game today. I injured my right eye while gardening, and I have to wear sunglasses, even indoors. I'm stunned by how bad it's throwing me off. No power tools for me today.
Brad
I guess I can explain it...
but you get my point. It is not something I created. Furthermore, it might best be described as a corona, rather than an aurora.
I'm really off my game today. I injured my right eye while gardening, and I have to wear sunglasses, even indoors. I'm stunned by how bad it's throwing me off. No power tools for me today.
Brad
Aztec/Mayan
Cubfan,
I don't mind at all. Give me a few minutes to get things together, and I'll post the links.
The one article used to be available on this website, but they pulled it when they rebuilt the front page. I'll get on it for you.
Brad
I don't mind at all. Give me a few minutes to get things together, and I'll post the links.
The one article used to be available on this website, but they pulled it when they rebuilt the front page. I'll get on it for you.
Brad
Mayan/Aztec Influence
Cubfan,
Well, here's one to get started with, although it probably doesn't include much information you do not already know.
http://destinationarizona.blogspot.com/ ... esert.html
These articles were prepared for inclusion in various magazines and newspapers, and usually run six to eight hundred words in length. They were not prepared with the academic community in mind, and as such, they are generally brief and to the point. I will hunt down additional links for you this afternoon.
Thank you for asking.
Brad
Well, here's one to get started with, although it probably doesn't include much information you do not already know.
http://destinationarizona.blogspot.com/ ... esert.html
These articles were prepared for inclusion in various magazines and newspapers, and usually run six to eight hundred words in length. They were not prepared with the academic community in mind, and as such, they are generally brief and to the point. I will hunt down additional links for you this afternoon.
Thank you for asking.
Brad
Aztec/Mayan
Cubfan,
here is the link to another article I wrote on the subject. This one concentrates on the Aztec, and although the article is rather short, it is one of my most popular, having been published in 35 countries, and in several languages.
http://nationalnewswire.blogspot.com/20 ... mpire.html
I also located and posted an artists rendering of what such an event might have looked like. I posted it on page 3 of 'Every Picture Tells A Story'. There are some differences.
Note of interest:
As the Mayan and later, the Aztec, traveled further from home base, their basic practices became simpler in order to accommodate conditions.
Example: In Indiana Jones, as you may recall, there were scenes featuring 'booby-trapped' arrows shooting out from inside walls. These type of devices did exist, but were only employed near home base, as they required leather straps that would dry and crack, thus releasing the arrow prematurely, and thus requiring periodic maintenance.
Sometimes traveling parties relocated for years, always with the intent of returning home. In these semi-permanent outposts, simpler, more robust designs were implemented. In my photo, this alter sits in the center of a man made amphitheater carved out of the solid rock. Steps, also carved into the solid rock lead up to the alter. The former location of the temple structure sits nearby.
This particular site is far too easy to access, and unfortunately, it is slowly being destroyed by visitors. It was once quite a layout.
Brad
here is the link to another article I wrote on the subject. This one concentrates on the Aztec, and although the article is rather short, it is one of my most popular, having been published in 35 countries, and in several languages.
http://nationalnewswire.blogspot.com/20 ... mpire.html
I also located and posted an artists rendering of what such an event might have looked like. I posted it on page 3 of 'Every Picture Tells A Story'. There are some differences.
Note of interest:
As the Mayan and later, the Aztec, traveled further from home base, their basic practices became simpler in order to accommodate conditions.
Example: In Indiana Jones, as you may recall, there were scenes featuring 'booby-trapped' arrows shooting out from inside walls. These type of devices did exist, but were only employed near home base, as they required leather straps that would dry and crack, thus releasing the arrow prematurely, and thus requiring periodic maintenance.
Sometimes traveling parties relocated for years, always with the intent of returning home. In these semi-permanent outposts, simpler, more robust designs were implemented. In my photo, this alter sits in the center of a man made amphitheater carved out of the solid rock. Steps, also carved into the solid rock lead up to the alter. The former location of the temple structure sits nearby.
This particular site is far too easy to access, and unfortunately, it is slowly being destroyed by visitors. It was once quite a layout.
Brad
Thanks for the links Lazarus and I also took a look at the photos you mentioned.
Interesting stuff - especially the photos.
It doesn't stretch my imagination too much to consider the possibility of Aztec "like" cultures in Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, etc...
I'm heading out to the Supers for 2 weeks in October surrounding the Rendevouz dates - I have a few places I want to visit/explore while I'm there, but I still have a fairly open agenda. If you're comfortable sharing any locations with me, I'd love the opportunity to see "special" places - the further off the beaten path, the better If you're not comfortable with sharing locations, it's understandable and it won't offend me.
Interesting stuff - especially the photos.
It doesn't stretch my imagination too much to consider the possibility of Aztec "like" cultures in Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, etc...
I'm heading out to the Supers for 2 weeks in October surrounding the Rendevouz dates - I have a few places I want to visit/explore while I'm there, but I still have a fairly open agenda. If you're comfortable sharing any locations with me, I'd love the opportunity to see "special" places - the further off the beaten path, the better If you're not comfortable with sharing locations, it's understandable and it won't offend me.
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there is much physical evidence to support mesoamericans coming north...for trade, shells and copper from mexico have been found at many four corners ruins....chaco canyon is suspected to be a religious center for meso americans...the ball court at wupatki more that suggests mesoamerican influence...
the question is not if...or even when..but which tribes came north...remember the aztec legends say the aztec came into meso america from the north...
the question is not if...or even when..but which tribes came north...remember the aztec legends say the aztec came into meso america from the north...
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Mesoamerican and Company
Pip,
I concur, including the part about Chaco Canyon, which I hope to visit soon.
I'll see what other information I can dredge up. I also have some additional photos on the subject. Dozens, actually.
Brad
I concur, including the part about Chaco Canyon, which I hope to visit soon.
I'll see what other information I can dredge up. I also have some additional photos on the subject. Dozens, actually.
Brad
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