Howdy all, i have little to no knowledge of the LDM. I have never been to Arizona and I am a student interested in the LDM for historical and archaeological purposes.
Has anyone found (im sure you have) Native American remains in the sups... arrowheads, stone tools, axes, pottery, etc...? Obviously by the time the peralta's and Jake were in the mountains the apaches were all using firearms, but historically speaking it would be interesting to know where the apaches made camps (which can be assumed by the finding of multiple stone tools). Has anybody based any of their searching off of archaeological evidence?
Not that this has much relevance, but i would be curious to know. I frequent a ranch in Southern Texas and often find arrowheads. When me and a friend thought we had located the camp, we were rewarded. We found a pile of broken and intact arrowheads (nice ones) and also a good deal of turqoise. The artifacts are currently being studied at a local University.
My question is, if not a mine full of millions in gold... what have you found? I'm sure there is quite a lot out there, and arrowheads are not worthless either..
Thank you for your thoughts.
-Mayhoon
An irrelevant thought
An irrelevant thought
"Whiskey for me, and a beer for my horse!"
The most extensive ruins, which are also public knowledge, would be the Salado ruins in Rogers canyon. There was also a presence in Marsh valley at one time, as well as Garden valley. Don't remember offhand who it was though. On Superstition mountain there have been quite a few artifacts found that I believe were religous in nature or purpose. It is doubtful that anyone would share the better sites that are less frequented. Too many pothunters spades have ruined too many areas to give up those sites on a public forum.
There are better authorities here on who, what and why than myself. Hopefully they will post and educate us all a bit.
There are better authorities here on who, what and why than myself. Hopefully they will post and educate us all a bit.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Giving It Up.
Wayne,
"There are better authorities here on who, what and why than myself. Hopefully they will post and educate us all a bit."
You are correct that there are "better authorities" on this Forum. "Hopefully they will (NOT) post and educate us all a bit."
There are people on this Forum who would destroy any archaeological site they could find. They have done so in the past, and would have no problem doing so again.
They are usually the ones who are most worried about "others" doing exactly what they would do. Look back through old posts, and you will see the pattern of accusing others of doing what they themselves do on a regular basis.
There are a number of sites that are public knowledge.......let's leave it at that number.
Joe Ribaudo
"There are better authorities here on who, what and why than myself. Hopefully they will post and educate us all a bit."
You are correct that there are "better authorities" on this Forum. "Hopefully they will (NOT) post and educate us all a bit."
There are people on this Forum who would destroy any archaeological site they could find. They have done so in the past, and would have no problem doing so again.
They are usually the ones who are most worried about "others" doing exactly what they would do. Look back through old posts, and you will see the pattern of accusing others of doing what they themselves do on a regular basis.
There are a number of sites that are public knowledge.......let's leave it at that number.
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is a nice little book called "Ruins Seldom Seen" by Dave Wilson that covers the Rogers canyon ruins. I believe they are covered in the Hikers guide as well.
There used to be some nice arrowhead spreads, but rather than take one and pass on, someone cleaned them out. New laws were put into effect because of this.
The area in my members archive is suffering the other problem. Encroachment of development. It is now on private land and very little is left. As much damage as the individual spade has done, the blade has done more..............
There used to be some nice arrowhead spreads, but rather than take one and pass on, someone cleaned them out. New laws were put into effect because of this.
The area in my members archive is suffering the other problem. Encroachment of development. It is now on private land and very little is left. As much damage as the individual spade has done, the blade has done more..............
Zen,The most extensive ruins, which are also public knowledge, would be the Salado ruins in Rogers canyon. There was also a presence in Marsh valley at one time, as well as Garden valley. Don't remember offhand who it was though. On Superstition mountain there have been quite a few artifacts found that I believe were religous in nature or purpose. It is doubtful that anyone would share the better sites that are less frequented. Too many pothunters spades have ruined too many areas to give up those sites on a public forum.
There are better authorities here on who, what and why than myself. Hopefully they will post and educate us all a bit.
It's not just pothunters, either. The first time I went to the Rogers Canyon ruins, some guy was there with his young (maybe 10) son, who was up on top of the ruins, jumping up and down. I asked him to please restrain his son, which he did. He wasn't there to destroy anything or do anything illegal; he just didn't think! Most of the damage done to those ruins in the, what, 700 years? they've been there has happened in the last 100 years, since the recreational campers and sightseers have been going in there.
thanks for all the info. I understand that pothunters are definately a problem, as they are in all parts of this nation's precolumbian history. Since i have never even been to the Sup's, by all means refrain from relinquishing any the location of any lesser known sites.. keep these a secret!
I am just curious to know what some of you have found. Before the Peraltas and Waltz ever came to the sup's, there were people in this region for thousands of years. I have always been curious as to the material remains of others, (even remains of the past 100 years... one mans trash is another mans treasure). I just thought that maybe certain artifacts could be seen as an interesting clue in this great mystery. So has anyone found anything? Arrowheads, axes, firearms, bottles, cans, carvings, tools, bones, pottery, jewels?
P.S. If you do find a site or what you thing is a site, PLEASE do not destroy it by digging. Surface finds are one thing, because, sadly, if you dont pick it up, the next guy will. I am sure there is a lot out there, enough for everyone to enjoy, either visually or educationally.
Thanks,
Mayhoon
I am just curious to know what some of you have found. Before the Peraltas and Waltz ever came to the sup's, there were people in this region for thousands of years. I have always been curious as to the material remains of others, (even remains of the past 100 years... one mans trash is another mans treasure). I just thought that maybe certain artifacts could be seen as an interesting clue in this great mystery. So has anyone found anything? Arrowheads, axes, firearms, bottles, cans, carvings, tools, bones, pottery, jewels?
P.S. If you do find a site or what you thing is a site, PLEASE do not destroy it by digging. Surface finds are one thing, because, sadly, if you dont pick it up, the next guy will. I am sure there is a lot out there, enough for everyone to enjoy, either visually or educationally.
Thanks,
Mayhoon
"Whiskey for me, and a beer for my horse!"
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Joe Ribaudo
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Finding Stuff
Alll,
Here's a little story, I may have told before.
I had thought it might be interesting to take home a .50 shell, which are found all the time in this country while metal detecting. This (true) story cured me of that thought.
A while back the local newspaper went through the swap meet and did interviews with folks about what they were selling. Did one story on an old man who belonged to the same prospecting club as I do.
He had a couple of 5-gallon plastic buckets full of .50 shells that he had picked up out on our claims. I think he was selling them for 50-cents each.
Local BLM High Mucky-muck picked up on the story. She put together a little "look-see" at his home. Middle of the night they came through his door with guns drawn and ski-masks on. Short of prosecution, she was transferred out of the area.
Needless to say, I don't pick up any "artifacts", even if there are millions of them.
We have a lot of new members, and a record number of visitors looking in on this Forum. They are there even in the middle of the night. Think I heard that phrase somewhere before.
Joe Ribaudo
Here's a little story, I may have told before.
I had thought it might be interesting to take home a .50 shell, which are found all the time in this country while metal detecting. This (true) story cured me of that thought.
A while back the local newspaper went through the swap meet and did interviews with folks about what they were selling. Did one story on an old man who belonged to the same prospecting club as I do.
He had a couple of 5-gallon plastic buckets full of .50 shells that he had picked up out on our claims. I think he was selling them for 50-cents each.
Local BLM High Mucky-muck picked up on the story. She put together a little "look-see" at his home. Middle of the night they came through his door with guns drawn and ski-masks on. Short of prosecution, she was transferred out of the area.
Needless to say, I don't pick up any "artifacts", even if there are millions of them.
We have a lot of new members, and a record number of visitors looking in on this Forum. They are there even in the middle of the night. Think I heard that phrase somewhere before.
Joe Ribaudo
Re: Finding Stuff
Joe Ribaudo wrote:
We have a lot of new members, and a record number of visitors looking in on this Forum. They are there even in the middle of the night. Think I heard that phrase somewhere before.
Joe Ribaudo
Joe, is this an accusation? Yes I am fairly new to the forum but I was simply asking an honest question about what people may have seen or found in the area. I didnt mention anything on bullet casings, and from my readings of this forum i have found that everyone seems a bit paranoid. I was only looking for some information or stories on what people might have seen or found, if this is too difficult for people to answer, than i suppose i have asked the wrong question (or the wrong forum).
By telling me that you found an arrowhead... or a speck of gold does not mean that i will break in through your door in the middle of the night. And if you are referring to the time of my posts/browsing on this forum, than forgive me if i live in a different time zone and have a job.
Respectfully yours,
Mayhoon
"Whiskey for me, and a beer for my horse!"
I spend time here late at night too...I have a hard time sleeping sometimes. It's my nature I guess...my dad's a night owl 
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Joe Ribaudo
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Paranoia
Mayhoon,
I am also one of the people who is up late. Actually a number of members seem to be "night owls".
Glad you have a job, as that will help keep you out of trouble.
Carolyn and I run two business's but, as you can see, I still have time to get into a little trouble here. 
We have had an elder-care business for around 15 years now. We go into the homes of the elderly and help them with their daily living activities so they don't have to go into convalescent homes. Have around 18-20 caregivers working for us.
We also have a durable medical equipment business. We supply power wheelchairs, scooter, walkers......etc., mostly through medicare, for the elderly. We have two employees for that business. I used to run that business, the physical side, by myself but had to hire a helper due to my own health issues. Turned out the guy we hired had some serious health issues himself, so we hired a helper for him a month ago. We don't really need two business's, but get a great deal of satisfaction out of what we do.
All that is to say, I am actually pretty busy. Stay pretty much at my desk these days, and thus can look in at the Forum each time my little dog jumps on the screen and barks at me.
If my comments apply to you, by all means take offense. If they don't, they were not something you should pay any attention to. We had a member display and talk about a little carving he found once. Had a new charcter named ASU Grad come aboard and start telling us the laws he was breaking and how none of us knew s........tuff.
Do you think it would be wise for anyone to announce what they may have found in the Superstitions on this Forum? Without telling us who they were....Peter has mentioned that he watches this Forum for "others".
We have no idea how many "others" are also watching.
Welcome to the best LDM Forum on the planet.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
I am also one of the people who is up late. Actually a number of members seem to be "night owls".
Glad you have a job, as that will help keep you out of trouble.
Carolyn and I run two business's but, as you can see, I still have time to get into a little trouble here. We have had an elder-care business for around 15 years now. We go into the homes of the elderly and help them with their daily living activities so they don't have to go into convalescent homes. Have around 18-20 caregivers working for us.
We also have a durable medical equipment business. We supply power wheelchairs, scooter, walkers......etc., mostly through medicare, for the elderly. We have two employees for that business. I used to run that business, the physical side, by myself but had to hire a helper due to my own health issues. Turned out the guy we hired had some serious health issues himself, so we hired a helper for him a month ago. We don't really need two business's, but get a great deal of satisfaction out of what we do.
All that is to say, I am actually pretty busy. Stay pretty much at my desk these days, and thus can look in at the Forum each time my little dog jumps on the screen and barks at me.
If my comments apply to you, by all means take offense. If they don't, they were not something you should pay any attention to. We had a member display and talk about a little carving he found once. Had a new charcter named ASU Grad come aboard and start telling us the laws he was breaking and how none of us knew s........tuff.
Do you think it would be wise for anyone to announce what they may have found in the Superstitions on this Forum? Without telling us who they were....Peter has mentioned that he watches this Forum for "others".
We have no idea how many "others" are also watching.
Welcome to the best LDM Forum on the planet.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
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JIM HAMRICK
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An Irrevelent Thought
In the forties and fifties pot hunting was done as a recrectional pursuit, were we wrong? Willams Army Airforce Base is built over a huge farming area that went from the Superstitions to the Gila River with many villages. There was an irrigation pond on Snokie that had a canal that only the top of my head was visable when I crossed it (eight years old) and this was 400+/- years after it was built. all of this has been lost to modern farming and/or devlopment. My father hauled corn grinding stones that he had picked up from farms in the Queen Creek area and lined our driveway with these, was this pot hunting? A major hospital in Phoenix was built over an old pueblo and in the mid fifties they sold plots of ground for excavating and you got to keep what you found, was this pot hunting? a high school buddy of mine dug at this place and found artifacts to add to his collection, was this pot hunting? My friend later received his dotorate degree in archeology and has spent his life "pot hunting".
I guess the point I am trying to make is that the term "pot hunter" is a recent derogatory phrase and did not have the same conotation years ago as it does today. Having seen the valley sixty years ago and knowing what has been lost I think that more pot hunting should have been done. You would not want to see a statue of Michael Angleo broken into pieces or buried just because some think it should? I think that many of the Hohocam works would qualify as great art and I find it a shame that more is not on display in our county, state, city and other public buildings. I do not want to see existing sites harmed but I am not sure that the "powers that be" have any idea of what is left that needs protecting. I do know that in New River they are building homes on an old pit house village site.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that the term "pot hunter" is a recent derogatory phrase and did not have the same conotation years ago as it does today. Having seen the valley sixty years ago and knowing what has been lost I think that more pot hunting should have been done. You would not want to see a statue of Michael Angleo broken into pieces or buried just because some think it should? I think that many of the Hohocam works would qualify as great art and I find it a shame that more is not on display in our county, state, city and other public buildings. I do not want to see existing sites harmed but I am not sure that the "powers that be" have any idea of what is left that needs protecting. I do know that in New River they are building homes on an old pit house village site.
Jim,
Pot hunting on land with permission is one thing. Stealing artifacts from a protected federal wilderness is another entirely.
Pot hunting on land with permission is one thing. Stealing artifacts from a protected federal wilderness is another entirely.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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JIM HAMRICK
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An Irrevelent thought
I think that what I am objecting to the most is the term "pot hunter" as much of the knowledge of ancient Arizona has come from pot hunters. I have taken park rangers and showed them sites that they should check but to my knowledge nothing was done. I know of more sites but I am not sure that I would show anyone these today.
If you believe that pot hunting on private land is ok find some bones that could be or not, indian remains and see where private owenership of the land will get you.
And as far as federal wilderness land, I am not sure but it could be that if you are searching for the Lost Dutchman you could be breaking the law if you do anything but look. I do know from past posts that there are many obsticles to overcome to get a permit to check out a possible location.
I guess that I am just sad to look over the valley today because in yesteryear the valley was as close to paradise as one could want.
Jim Hamrick
If you believe that pot hunting on private land is ok find some bones that could be or not, indian remains and see where private owenership of the land will get you.
And as far as federal wilderness land, I am not sure but it could be that if you are searching for the Lost Dutchman you could be breaking the law if you do anything but look. I do know from past posts that there are many obsticles to overcome to get a permit to check out a possible location.
I guess that I am just sad to look over the valley today because in yesteryear the valley was as close to paradise as one could want.
Jim Hamrick
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
All,
In-order to save some poor sole from getting into trouble I offer this:
Mayhoon27 asked the wrong questions. If some poor sole answers yes to Mayhoon27’s questions he/she could be in serious trouble, even jail. Some people look at Mayhoon27’s questions as entrapment, since most of us can give examples where people went to jail for just a little more than picking up arrowheads. Taking Native American artifacts or other artifacts is illegal without the proper permission or ownership. I hope next time Mayhoon27 thinks about the consequences that his/her open questions may have on others.
Mayhoon27,
It is just too sensitive of an issue to be asking everyone,
“Has anyone found (im sure you have) Native American remains in the sups... arrowheads, stone tools, axes, pottery, etc...?”
Jesse
In-order to save some poor sole from getting into trouble I offer this:
Mayhoon27 asked the wrong questions. If some poor sole answers yes to Mayhoon27’s questions he/she could be in serious trouble, even jail. Some people look at Mayhoon27’s questions as entrapment, since most of us can give examples where people went to jail for just a little more than picking up arrowheads. Taking Native American artifacts or other artifacts is illegal without the proper permission or ownership. I hope next time Mayhoon27 thinks about the consequences that his/her open questions may have on others.
Mayhoon27,
It is just too sensitive of an issue to be asking everyone,
“Has anyone found (im sure you have) Native American remains in the sups... arrowheads, stone tools, axes, pottery, etc...?”
Jesse
Without realizing it, (an irrelevant question), it seems i have, without question, asked the wrong question, and i apologize. As i said, I am knew to this forum, hobby and field, and i actually didnt realize the potential damage of this post. I DID ask the wrong question, albeit simply out of curiosity. As i said i have never been to the Sup's or even Arizona, and i didnt realize the Sup's were protected federal land. I asked this question because i believe in preservation of ALL aspects of American history, especially the material remains. I absolutely do not want to get anyone in trouble, so by all means do not answer. I didnt realize that there are potentially people ''monitering'' these forums looking for people who are stealing artifacts from these SUP's. I really do enjoy these forums because the wealth of historical knowledge that many you possess is simply astounding.
Again, I apologize for the akward question i have asked, and i am actually glad that none of you have directly answered my question. I would like to continue to read about the vast historical knowledge found on this forum. Joe, i can now see where your concerns came from, and i apoligize for the anomosity.
Cheers,
Mayhoon
Again, I apologize for the akward question i have asked, and i am actually glad that none of you have directly answered my question. I would like to continue to read about the vast historical knowledge found on this forum. Joe, i can now see where your concerns came from, and i apoligize for the anomosity.
Cheers,
Mayhoon
"Whiskey for me, and a beer for my horse!"
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
No Apology Needed
Mayhoon,
No need to apologize. I was not picking you as someone trying to entrap anyone. The fact is, we have a lot of new members and we have a record number of "guests" looking in on the Forum.
I stay away from "protected" sites, but there are people who would tear them apart for a few flakes of gold, or an Indian burial pot.
Welcome to the Forum, and enjoy your stay.
Joe Ribaudo
No need to apologize. I was not picking you as someone trying to entrap anyone. The fact is, we have a lot of new members and we have a record number of "guests" looking in on the Forum.
I stay away from "protected" sites, but there are people who would tear them apart for a few flakes of gold, or an Indian burial pot.
Welcome to the Forum, and enjoy your stay.
Joe Ribaudo
Both Joe and Jim were equally correct 100% in my opinion.
The few things I have were from our private property. The grinding stone I have was dug up by a laborer and given to my Dad who passed it on to me........it is a nice paper weight. I think my Dad was going to use it to hold the grill up over the coffee firepit at first and decided against it. Most of the Arrowheads I had as a kid I passed on to family who visited years ago.
The laws are different concerning things now and I just take pictures and hope everyone else does the same. There were some nice places on the rim that were emptied after years of everyone leaving them to everyone to enjoy. One place was vandalized and everything was destroyed malaciously. There are places now I will not visit just to hope they will remain undisturbed.
The few things I have were from our private property. The grinding stone I have was dug up by a laborer and given to my Dad who passed it on to me........it is a nice paper weight. I think my Dad was going to use it to hold the grill up over the coffee firepit at first and decided against it. Most of the Arrowheads I had as a kid I passed on to family who visited years ago.
The laws are different concerning things now and I just take pictures and hope everyone else does the same. There were some nice places on the rim that were emptied after years of everyone leaving them to everyone to enjoy. One place was vandalized and everything was destroyed malaciously. There are places now I will not visit just to hope they will remain undisturbed.
One place was vandalized and everything was destroyed malaciously. There are places now I will not visit just to hope they will remain undisturbed.
The pertoglyphs? Makes me sic, personally.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari