Walter Gassler mystery.

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LDM
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Walter Gassler mystery.

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LDM
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Post by TGH »

:?:
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Joe Ribaudo
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Good Story, But.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Matthew,

That's a good story, but it has a few problems. I understand that you are only relating what others have postulated, so don't take this personal.

While Walt Gassler was found in a setting position, he was not unsupported. His back was against another rock which held him upright after he expired.

There is no evidence, whatsoever, that he died somewhere else and was then moved to the spot where his body was found. Despite Peter's "notion", the evidence shows he died while setting on that rock.

Having found a number of people who have died as a result of heatstroke, as well as some who have died without the effects of direct exposure to the sun, I know a little about the subject.

Lividity and sun blackened skin are not that difficult to distinguish from each other. While the sun burns the skin black, lividity has a red, to dark purple look.

If Mr. Gassler had lividity in the right side of his face, which is unlikely, he would have also had it in his right side. If the blood did settle in the side of his face, it is likely that it would appear as a bruise. This would have been noted in his autopsy records.

Lividity is an important tool in determining if a body has been moved after death. We do not move any dead person for this reason. If the person died on their back but the body is found face down, it's a dead giveaway that someone has, at the least, turned the body over.

There are a number or reasons why someone would start this rumor, and the protection of a favored area would be prime among them. It seems almost a given that Gassler died exactly where he was found, so if that was the reason behind the rumor, it follows that someone wanted to make it seem that he died elsewhere.

There could be many reasons why his face was not burned on both sides:
Tilt of the head, hat or natural shade in the morning. It is unknown how long it took Gassler to die, once he sat down. It does not take the sun long to do it's work, once the body starts the dying process.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by djui5 »

TGH wrote:Then again, he may have just died.......and was still moved out of someones area of interest.

P
If the blood was on the side of his face like LDM said, this would be my guess. He died somewhere where someone didn't want him, and they moved him.

I find it hard to believe that someone chasing him would let him die, then come back later and move him. Why wouldn't they move him right then? If they did, he wouldn't have a half black face. Dosen't all add up.
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LDM
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????

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Randy,

The blackness on the side of Walt Gasslere's face was caused by the sun.

It was not caused by the process of lividity.

It would be impossible for the medical examiner not to know the difference.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Attacking the "facts".

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Matthew,

I have no idea why you feel you must attack me, rather than what I have said, but my post did nothing of the sort to you.

We are not discussing lividity in general terms here, but the process that occurs, starting in most cases, within 20 minutes to three hours after someone dies. Hot weather also has an effect on how long the process might take.

I am not speaking from what someone has told me, but from personal (regretably) experience.

As in most cases involving something you are told by a doctor, my advice to anyone, would be to get a second opinion. :lol:

I do apologize for saying:

"That's a good story, but it has a few problems. I understand that you are only relating what others have postulated, so don't take this personal."

You obviously did take it personally. I assumed, bad mistake, that you were not an eye witness to the events and therefore could only relate what you had read, or what others told you.

I also apologize for saying:

"There is no evidence, whatsoever, that he died somewhere else and was then moved to the spot where his body was found. Despite Peter's "notion", the evidence shows he died while setting on that rock."

I had no inkling that you would take my "light hearted" jab at "Peter's notion" as a personl affront. As I have been on the other end of those little jabs for the last few days, it was hard to pass up the opening. Looking back, I can see where you would make the unintended connection.

Because I am not "divinely inspired", I can only base my replies on what you have written, not what you might actually know or think. That would be why I did not attack you, but questioned the facts based on my own personal experience.

Somehow I knew that my entering this conversation would lead to trouble.
I will leave it to those whose opinions and knowledge are both greater and, less confrontational than my own. :)

Take care,

Joe
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Post by djui5 »

Does anyone have the ME's report?

I'm not sure I believe the sun could "badly blacken" only one side of someones face. There would be other spots that were burnt. How long would it take the sun to burn someones skin after they died? That's quite a vital question in the Sun/Blood debate.

You are right thought Joe, any competent ME should be able to tell the difference. Hell, you could probably tell the difference from a good photograph.

The camp question is a killer one too. Why was it there if he never made it to camp? Who said he never made it to camp? How would they know if he did or not?

:D

This is fun.
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Post by LDM »

LDM
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Minor Issues

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Matthew,

Sorry you took my post as a "blasting", even a minor one. I speak my mind and on occassion, even have a small idea of what I am talking about. :lol: That tends to put a burr under many a saddle here.

I will let others hash out the Gassler mystery. They are doing a fine job of asking the right questions.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by Jesse J. Feldman »

For whatever it's worth,

Gassler's story is tough to crack. Speaking in short, and only on one of the unknowns. I knew Don Shade very well, who found Gassler. Don had identified another person near the discovery site of Gassler's body. To my knowledge, Don took that information to his grave. However, and only speculation, he may have told his son, who is really not a Dutch Hunter, and may not care one way or the other. I believe that Don saw someone that he knew very well, almost like the Ruth/Barkley stories. My take is that Don thought the person was not guilty of murder and that he did not want to "stir up a hornets nest" as he would always say. One might think that Don had broken the law by telling authorities that he did not recognize the man. One other thing is that Don did not touch the body, as he knew it would only cause more paperwork, and more of his involvment in the investigation. Glover's discussion with Don on page 242 seems to make the reader think that the mysterious man had killed Gassler. If that is true, then many on this forum have probably met or know the murderer. Who knows.... My personal opinion is that he died on his own, however, Matthew brings up a good point that contradicts that belief. Maybe the mysterious man had set Gassler up and rifled his backpack? For the blood to blacken the side of Gasslers face I would guess that the body had been laying on it for at least 12 hours in those temperatures, but now I am only speaking from experience with dead animals.

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Post by djui5 »

Thanks Jesse,
that clears up some, and raises some more :)
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Post by LDM »

LDM
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Post by Gregory E. Davis »

Greetings Gentlemen: Sure glad to see the forum returing to topics of historic interest. As with many others, I also knew Don Shade for many years. Finest old gentleman you would ever want to meet. Here's my contribution to this discussion. Sometime after the Glassler affair I asked Don straight forward why he would not disclose the identities of the person or persons he saw that day in the mountains. Don's reply was: "Greg I still want to stay alive when I go in the mountains". The other item pertains to his son. I visited with Vince several years ago. I was trying to get him started orgainzing his fathers papers. I ask him if Don had every told him the names of the person or persons he saw near Gassler that day. His reply was: "No, Father would never talk about it". One more thing, and I do not want to muddy the waters here, so remember this was Don's first impression. When I asked him what his thought when he came upon Gassler that day, Don's reply was: "Well Greg, He looked like an old man who just sat down by the trail and died". I do NOT know if that was before or after Don spotted the other persons on the trail. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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Post by Jesse J. Feldman »

Matthew,

Sherwood?
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Post by LDM »

LDM
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How Much Is Too Much?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Matthew,

I have no comment's to make on the surrounding stories about Walt Gassler, or about what you personally experienced and witnessed. My "piece" dealt only with the physical evidence that was conveyed in the published story.

That is the only knowledge I have on the matter. While I did make a rather short observation which should have been worded in another manner, my main point had to do with the facts as they were, and had been presented.

What is missing here, is the condition of lividity in the rest of Walt Gassler's body. That is something that any M.E. would have noted in his report. There are a number of other things that occur after death, that would have come into play, that would effect the ability of someone to "place" Gassler in a sitting position on that rock.

I could quote sources that would support that what happened to the side of Gassler's face was not lividity, but there is always a fine line between proving a point and.... how much is too much?

Take care,

Joe
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LDM
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The Mystery Deepens

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Matthew,

It's also possible he was leaving or just coming back onto the trail.

Joe
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A Strange Twist of Events

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A Strange Twist of Events

Note: This information comes from a couple of sources. Due to Copyright material by the writers, the exact wording has been changed except for a brief quote at the end of this article.

Remember, I am only the messenger, so please do not kill the courier.

One strange event after Walter Gassler’s death, was a visitor to Tom Kollenborn’s home. According to the account a man claiming to be Roland, Walter Gassler’s son, told Tom that his father had found the famed Lost Dutchman Mine in the Superstitions Mountains. The man exhibited some rich gold ore, that according to Tom Kollenborn, looked almost identical to the gold that allegedly come from under the Dutchman’s deathbed. The man claiming to be Roland, said the gold ore had come from his father’s backpack. He then ask Kollenborn if he could have his father’s notes. Tom suggested that he call Bob Corbin, the attorney general at his office in the state capital, and the subject was dropped.

Tom called Bob a week later asking if he had heard from Gassler’s son, he said no.

A couple of months later, while down in Florence, Arizona, after he had finish his well-known slide show on the Superstitions, Kollenborn was approached by another man who introduced himself as Walter Gassler’s son. When the man made the same request asking for Walter’s notes, Tom went to the phone and called Bob Corbin.

It was later established, that this was the real Roland Gassler.

Short quote from “The Dutchman’s Lost Gold Mine” by Lee Paul:

“Who was the first man who claimed to be Roland Gassler? It appears that he was an impostor who needed Walt’s map so he could search for himself. But, how did he get the gold ore sample? When Walt died, the sheriff’s report listed a backpack among Walt’s belongings, but the real Roland Gassler never received it. Furthermore, Don Shade, the man who found Walt’s body, remembered seeing the backpack. He also remembered seeing a stranger in the area. When he learned of Kollenborn’s description of the man that came to him and who showed him some gold, it matched the description Shade remembered of the stranger in the area.”

Source: The Curse Of The Dutchman’s Gold by Helen Corbin

The Dutchman’s Lost Gold Mine by Lee Paul

buscar :)
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Post by djui5 »

I just read this on another forum...not sure if it helps anyone..



"When Walter Gassler was in his eighties, he came back to the Superstitions , because he knew just where the LDM was located. He was so old, nobody wanted to pack him in. He walked in by himself. "In May of 1984, he knew exactly where to find the LDM, and the next thing anybody saw of him was on May 4th, when Don Shade and a guide from the OK Corral were riding up Charlebois Ridge and found his dead body sitting upright on a rock, just leaning back against another rock. Up the ridge a ways, they saw a man darting in and out of the brush, but couldn't see him well enough to get a description. Don Shade said he knew who the man was, but was afraid that if he told, he would be killed next time he went into the mountains."

Before going into the mountains, he had loaned Tom Kollenborn some manuscripts and a map (I think). "
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Post by TGH »

:?:
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Post by djui5 »

I don't think his plan was to stick around. I think it was to get the notes and disappear....
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Another Difficult Question

Post by buscar »

Another difficult question: Who or what gave the impersonator the idea, that Kollenborn had Walter Gassler’s notes? :?

buscar :)
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LDM
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