I’m hoping some of you will humor me on this one.
The other day I was trying to pinpoint a single definitive point in time that would provide a benchmark for this story. In short a single unmuddled starting point maybe from a different angle if you will.
With that in mind, if you could go back in time for a twenty-four hour period in order to unravel the Lost Dutchman story when would it be and why.
My first thoughts, naturally tended toward the night that Jacob died. However, considering Helen, Rhiney, Holmes, and Gideon were there and yet they found nothing I don’t think I’d squander my time there.
Right now I’m leaning toward Christmas of 1890 at Helen’s dinner where Jacob discussed the location of the mine and caches.
Why Not
Dutchman Time Travel
For a 24 Hr. Time Travel, I would go back to a day around 1868 and spend it with Jake Waltz as he visited his hard rock mine and his placer mine in the Supers. I would ask him to tell me the history with the LDM mine(s) as he knew it and how he came to know about the mine(s) and his experiences with them - Indians, claim jumpers, etc.
If you are going to go back in time, might as well go directly to the primary source and skip the fringe players.
Roger
If you are going to go back in time, might as well go directly to the primary source and skip the fringe players.
Roger
Good choice
Good choice and I'm with ya.
But you have to pick a 24 hour period. I couldn't come up with an exact time frame that put him in the mountains. Even if you picked a certain week I don't think you'd be assured of seeing him and which spot would you go to. This guy was like smoke when he got near the mountains everywhere and nowhere.
But you have to pick a 24 hour period. I couldn't come up with an exact time frame that put him in the mountains. Even if you picked a certain week I don't think you'd be assured of seeing him and which spot would you go to. This guy was like smoke when he got near the mountains everywhere and nowhere.
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Joe Ribaudo
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24 Hours
Knun,
What a great idea. The problem is, that no one has a specific 24 hour period to choose from. Your parameters are too confining because the legend is seldom precise.
Having said that, I will abide by your rules.
I will pick the hours of 7:30 AM on June 15, 1931 to 7:30 AM June 16. I would be camping with Adolph Ruth.
The "why" is fairly simple. Something took place in that specific time period which may have had a great deal to do with finding the LDM.
It will be interesting to see if anyone can come up with a date certain for their 24 hour choice. TGH can't come up with a specific date for his 24 hours with Joe Deering because, other than the date of his accident and death, there is nothing documented on the man.
You were wise to avoid the time of Jacob Waltz's death. It is unlikely he said anything that would place anyone close to his mine. If he had, it would now be called the "Holmes Gold Mine".
You did make a few errors in your own choice. "The event took place at Waltz's adobe home". The dinner was made by Helena "with food she had brought with her..." The date was Dec. 28, 1860. That was the last Sunday of the month. Christmas day was on Thursday.
That would have been my first choice, but you were there first.
Anyone else have a specific date and time?
Respectfully,
Joe
What a great idea. The problem is, that no one has a specific 24 hour period to choose from. Your parameters are too confining because the legend is seldom precise.
Having said that, I will abide by your rules.
I will pick the hours of 7:30 AM on June 15, 1931 to 7:30 AM June 16. I would be camping with Adolph Ruth.
The "why" is fairly simple. Something took place in that specific time period which may have had a great deal to do with finding the LDM.
It will be interesting to see if anyone can come up with a date certain for their 24 hour choice. TGH can't come up with a specific date for his 24 hours with Joe Deering because, other than the date of his accident and death, there is nothing documented on the man.
You were wise to avoid the time of Jacob Waltz's death. It is unlikely he said anything that would place anyone close to his mine. If he had, it would now be called the "Holmes Gold Mine".
You did make a few errors in your own choice. "The event took place at Waltz's adobe home". The dinner was made by Helena "with food she had brought with her..." The date was Dec. 28, 1860. That was the last Sunday of the month. Christmas day was on Thursday.
That would have been my first choice, but you were there first.
Anyone else have a specific date and time?
Respectfully,
Joe
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RU Kidding
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Jesse J. Feldman
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24 hour
Since it can be all conjecture, I will attempt to only produce a date and reason on that premises.
I would have to choose 1864 with Waltz and Weisner helping the small group of Peraltas, who were here to seceretly remove caches and start mining as the Peralta seniors did years before, excape their deaths at the hands of Pima scouts under Walker. Now that is a run on sentence.
The 24 hour period would have to be after escape, south of the Gila River when Waltzer and Weisner Aquirred the Peralta Mine Deed and was given all information about mines and caches in the Superstition Mountains.
I have to edit my dates. 1864-1865 - Since there are historians in this forum that can be criticle, I feel guilty by letting some things go.
Jesse
I would have to choose 1864 with Waltz and Weisner helping the small group of Peraltas, who were here to seceretly remove caches and start mining as the Peralta seniors did years before, excape their deaths at the hands of Pima scouts under Walker. Now that is a run on sentence.
The 24 hour period would have to be after escape, south of the Gila River when Waltzer and Weisner Aquirred the Peralta Mine Deed and was given all information about mines and caches in the Superstition Mountains.
I have to edit my dates. 1864-1865 - Since there are historians in this forum that can be criticle, I feel guilty by letting some things go.
Jesse
Last edited by Jesse J. Feldman on Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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24
Knun,
It would appear that your question is just too difficult to grasp.
Perhaps you need to reword it, as explanations of the concept have not cleared up the topic here.
RU,
You realize that Adolph Ruth was the motivating factor behind Gassler's search?
Respectfully,
Joe
It would appear that your question is just too difficult to grasp.
Perhaps you need to reword it, as explanations of the concept have not cleared up the topic here.
RU,
You realize that Adolph Ruth was the motivating factor behind Gassler's search?
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
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What?
Joe
What do you mean - Helena - dinner - 1860?
Jesse
What do you mean - Helena - dinner - 1860?
Jesse
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Joe Ribaudo
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Typo?
Jesse,
Simple typo. Just to clear up the inadvertent confusion, make that 1890.
As for the rest of it, page 96 "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Sims Ely.
Now that you are paying attention, why not try to come up with a specific 24 hour period, difficult for sure, which would address Knun's original question.
I don't believe "it can be all conjecture" in answering Knun's question. There are a few things which can be pinpointed to a specific 24 hour period. As Knun has pointed out, the dinner on the last Sunday of December in 1890, The 24 hours surrounding the death of Jacob Waltz and my own 24 hour period for Adolph Ruth, are all specific times in the history of the LDM. I would place the dinner as number one, and my second choice as number two.
You guys must be ready to take your timber, and start working it into a life boat about now.
Take care.
Respectfully,
Joe
Simple typo.
Just to clear up the inadvertent confusion, make that 1890. As for the rest of it, page 96 "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Sims Ely.
Now that you are paying attention, why not try to come up with a specific 24 hour period, difficult for sure, which would address Knun's original question.
I don't believe "it can be all conjecture" in answering Knun's question. There are a few things which can be pinpointed to a specific 24 hour period. As Knun has pointed out, the dinner on the last Sunday of December in 1890, The 24 hours surrounding the death of Jacob Waltz and my own 24 hour period for Adolph Ruth, are all specific times in the history of the LDM. I would place the dinner as number one, and my second choice as number two.
You guys must be ready to take your timber, and start working it into a life boat about now.
Take care.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Hi Joe
To me - my answer is unmuddled. I say all conjecture because I or anyone alive today was not alive during the most important dates. If there was a priviledged person, would you believe them without video tape. Even that can be made to look different depending on point of view. Same with books, accounts, even records. I know how you stress everyone for the smoking gun and push them to their best, but I will take this question lighter. I could not answer if I didn't. I would be handicapped. I would be limited to somewhere I didn't want to be, like in 1931. How about Julias attempt to find the mine? Well documented and I suppose if you look at the furthest point she went to you might stir a question. How about Herman P. and Pearl Frickers conversations at Reavis Ranch? How about Weisners capture at the Walker Ranch when the Peralta mine deed was taken from him. A ride to town with Elisha? So on and so on. As for a specific 24 hour period I could choose any day for a number of years on many happenings.
I'm sure you know all the unmuttled facts. That is your calling. It is just that my unmuttled facts are more muttled than yours. I believe you have to be more malleable.
Jesse
To me - my answer is unmuddled. I say all conjecture because I or anyone alive today was not alive during the most important dates. If there was a priviledged person, would you believe them without video tape. Even that can be made to look different depending on point of view. Same with books, accounts, even records. I know how you stress everyone for the smoking gun and push them to their best, but I will take this question lighter. I could not answer if I didn't. I would be handicapped. I would be limited to somewhere I didn't want to be, like in 1931. How about Julias attempt to find the mine? Well documented and I suppose if you look at the furthest point she went to you might stir a question. How about Herman P. and Pearl Frickers conversations at Reavis Ranch? How about Weisners capture at the Walker Ranch when the Peralta mine deed was taken from him. A ride to town with Elisha? So on and so on. As for a specific 24 hour period I could choose any day for a number of years on many happenings.
I'm sure you know all the unmuttled facts. That is your calling. It is just that my unmuttled facts are more muttled than yours. I believe you have to be more malleable.
Jesse
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Joe Ribaudo
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OK
Jesse,
It looks like you need to go back and read Knun's first post. As I said, there have been three answers given, two of which are well documented.
The dinner could be "just a story", but it is unusual to have such a specific time given in LDM lore.
Knun posed a simple, straightforward question. No need to turn it into a term paper.
Respectfully,
Joe
It looks like you need to go back and read Knun's first post. As I said, there have been three answers given, two of which are well documented.
The dinner could be "just a story", but it is unusual to have such a specific time given in LDM lore.
Knun posed a simple, straightforward question. No need to turn it into a term paper.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Thomas Glover
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Knun,
Interesting question, and I must say a pleasant diversion this morning. For me a central issue is would one be going back as a “fly-on-the-wall” or as an active participant.
If as a “fly-on-the-wall” I would choose the night Waltz dies. Unlike some others I believe that Waltz did try to give instructions to Gideon Roberts and Dick Holmes. The operative word is “try”. For various reasons I consider it most probable that Waltz’s revelations to Roberts and Holmes were more accurate or reliable than those given to Julia and Rhinehart over the previous weeks. Unfortunately for both Roberts and Holmes, I believe that neither one was very good at understanding what Waltz was saying, nor were they very good at asking the right questions. Simply neither was up to it. Consider that interviewing, interrogation, and so forth are skills that need to be learned. How many rookie police officers do you think get it right the first time? Layer on the lack of agreed place names and the question for me is not: “Why did Holmes not find the mine?”
If as an active participant: October 30th, 1864. Site: “Massacre Grounds”. Self-explanatory.
Interesting question, and I must say a pleasant diversion this morning. For me a central issue is would one be going back as a “fly-on-the-wall” or as an active participant.
If as a “fly-on-the-wall” I would choose the night Waltz dies. Unlike some others I believe that Waltz did try to give instructions to Gideon Roberts and Dick Holmes. The operative word is “try”. For various reasons I consider it most probable that Waltz’s revelations to Roberts and Holmes were more accurate or reliable than those given to Julia and Rhinehart over the previous weeks. Unfortunately for both Roberts and Holmes, I believe that neither one was very good at understanding what Waltz was saying, nor were they very good at asking the right questions. Simply neither was up to it. Consider that interviewing, interrogation, and so forth are skills that need to be learned. How many rookie police officers do you think get it right the first time? Layer on the lack of agreed place names and the question for me is not: “Why did Holmes not find the mine?”
If as an active participant: October 30th, 1864. Site: “Massacre Grounds”. Self-explanatory.
I too think the Massacre Grounds would be an excellent place to be.
If you weren’t able to unravel the Dutchman you could at least watch the ore drop (or be cached), come back, and have a grand hike.
But with that said I could not get within a 12 month period as to when I would want to be there, let alone a 24 hour time frame.
This begs the question why October 30, 1864?
If you weren’t able to unravel the Dutchman you could at least watch the ore drop (or be cached), come back, and have a grand hike.
But with that said I could not get within a 12 month period as to when I would want to be there, let alone a 24 hour time frame.
This begs the question why October 30, 1864?
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Thomas Glover
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I believe the Arizona Volunteers (Edwards and Green) who found the site of the massacre came through in Dec./Jan. of 1864/’65. There was enough sign to indicate a battle with heavy casualties, that the victims were Mexicans and they were miners. The spring/summer/fall of 1865 the trail was fresh or strong enough that with patience it could be followed to the Mexican main camps and associated sites. The fall before the sign would have been at least as fresh, and if there were winter rains between late October and when the Volunteers found the site the sign would have even been fresher.
On the ground that early one could have gotten a pretty good idea of the lay of the Mexican mining operation, possibly even have found one of more of the mines and/or caches. Should the Apache presence in the mountains force one out and you were patient you could wait it out over a period of years. By the early to mid-1880s with a reasonably big force you could return to the mountains knowing enough from previous findings to very likely be successful in locating and opening a mine or mines. If one found the massacre ground site when one was, say, in their mid-twenties then when in their mid-forties (at the latest) they would be opening some very rich mines. Such a find would result in enough of a white-eye presence to ensure success. By late fall the weather is cooler and there could well be water in the mountains – after all, if one had not been in the mountains one would not yet know about march Valley and their springs.
On the ground that early one could have gotten a pretty good idea of the lay of the Mexican mining operation, possibly even have found one of more of the mines and/or caches. Should the Apache presence in the mountains force one out and you were patient you could wait it out over a period of years. By the early to mid-1880s with a reasonably big force you could return to the mountains knowing enough from previous findings to very likely be successful in locating and opening a mine or mines. If one found the massacre ground site when one was, say, in their mid-twenties then when in their mid-forties (at the latest) they would be opening some very rich mines. Such a find would result in enough of a white-eye presence to ensure success. By late fall the weather is cooler and there could well be water in the mountains – after all, if one had not been in the mountains one would not yet know about march Valley and their springs.
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Tom,
I believe your barking up the wrong tree with the Massacre Grounds. There is no way to prove this massacre had anything to do with the Peralta Mines. As I said before, I believe Chief Chuntz massacred Pima Homeguard at the M. Grounds. If you think the L.D.M. is anywhere near there, you are mistaken.
Your choice of Waltz's death is the correct one since we know his death happened on a certain day. That has always been the highlight of the story. He was dying in the company of friends. Sounds crazy and very restrictive. Makes you wonder if anyone believes he lived.
Since it is raining today I have nothing else to do but bug you guys.
Jesse
I believe your barking up the wrong tree with the Massacre Grounds. There is no way to prove this massacre had anything to do with the Peralta Mines. As I said before, I believe Chief Chuntz massacred Pima Homeguard at the M. Grounds. If you think the L.D.M. is anywhere near there, you are mistaken.
Your choice of Waltz's death is the correct one since we know his death happened on a certain day. That has always been the highlight of the story. He was dying in the company of friends. Sounds crazy and very restrictive. Makes you wonder if anyone believes he lived.
Since it is raining today I have nothing else to do but bug you guys.
Jesse
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Joe Ribaudo
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Date Confusion
Tom,
I think you may have a problem with your "Dec./Jan. of 1864/'65" date.
There was no Fort McDowell in 1864. Colonel Bennett did not reach the future site of the fort until Sept. 7, 1865.
Prior to that date, I believe they had spent June through Augest at Maricopa Wells. Dec./Jan. of 1865/'66 would be the first such period which matches what you have suggested.
Knun's question concerning the date seems valid.
Jesse,
"I believe your barking up the wrong tree with the Massacre Grounds. There is no way to prove this massacre had anything to do with the Peralta Mines. As I said before, I believe Chief Chuntz massacred Pima Homeguard at the M. Grounds. If you think the L.D.M. is anywhere near there, you are mistaken."
That is a pretty bold position. Is there any way to prove one word of the above statement?
Dr. Glover has the history of the Peralta family, which at least, shows that there may have been a large battle between the Peraltas and the Indians somewhere in the vicinity of the Superstitions in 1842 or 1846. Is there another place in the Superstitions which has been identified as a "massacre grounds"?
I understand that you said "I believe", but in this thread that's all any of us should be saying, except of course, for my own 24 hours.
Respectfully,
Joe
I think you may have a problem with your "Dec./Jan. of 1864/'65" date.
There was no Fort McDowell in 1864. Colonel Bennett did not reach the future site of the fort until Sept. 7, 1865.
Prior to that date, I believe they had spent June through Augest at Maricopa Wells. Dec./Jan. of 1865/'66 would be the first such period which matches what you have suggested.
Knun's question concerning the date seems valid.
Jesse,
"I believe your barking up the wrong tree with the Massacre Grounds. There is no way to prove this massacre had anything to do with the Peralta Mines. As I said before, I believe Chief Chuntz massacred Pima Homeguard at the M. Grounds. If you think the L.D.M. is anywhere near there, you are mistaken."
That is a pretty bold position. Is there any way to prove one word of the above statement?
Dr. Glover has the history of the Peralta family, which at least, shows that there may have been a large battle between the Peraltas and the Indians somewhere in the vicinity of the Superstitions in 1842 or 1846. Is there another place in the Superstitions which has been identified as a "massacre grounds"?I understand that you said "I believe", but in this thread that's all any of us should be saying, except of course, for my own 24 hours.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Joe,
I don't believe it is a bold statement. I believe it is obvious as the sky is blue.
Yes, there is a way to prove a massacre somewhere else that actually pertains to the Peraltas and Perro Mucho. You would have to have permission for an archaeological dig in the wilderness of grave sites. The graves would probably produce enough artifacts to support such a claim. Since suvivors buried their dead in catholic graves, it is not a problem to see them. So, in answer to your question, Yes, there is another place and two massacres. There is also another way to support this. We are slowly working on that.
Joe and Tom,
If Tom had the complete history of the Peraltas, there would not be a "Lost" Dutchman Mine. No offence Tom. Which branch? and so on. For Joe to say you have the history of the Peraltas is kinda wrong. No offence Joe. I don't believe the Peraltas alive today have the history, unless they are not speaking up.
Respectfully,
Jesse
I don't believe it is a bold statement. I believe it is obvious as the sky is blue.
Yes, there is a way to prove a massacre somewhere else that actually pertains to the Peraltas and Perro Mucho. You would have to have permission for an archaeological dig in the wilderness of grave sites. The graves would probably produce enough artifacts to support such a claim. Since suvivors buried their dead in catholic graves, it is not a problem to see them. So, in answer to your question, Yes, there is another place and two massacres. There is also another way to support this. We are slowly working on that.
Joe and Tom,
If Tom had the complete history of the Peraltas, there would not be a "Lost" Dutchman Mine. No offence Tom. Which branch? and so on. For Joe to say you have the history of the Peraltas is kinda wrong. No offence Joe. I don't believe the Peraltas alive today have the history, unless they are not speaking up.
Respectfully,
Jesse
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Jesse J. Feldman
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Tom
You are correct on most of your Massacre Ground info.
Joe
I agree with you on the 65/66 date for the finding of the "Peralta" (or is that Arvisu, Gonzales or Ochoa ) remains?
Jesse
Much of your information is entertaining, but is on shaky historical ground. Tom Glover is for the most part quite right. If and when the LDM is found it will be found much closer to the Massacre Grounds than the eastern end of the range....IMHO
You are correct on most of your Massacre Ground info.
Joe
I agree with you on the 65/66 date for the finding of the "Peralta" (or is that Arvisu, Gonzales or Ochoa ) remains?
Jesse
Much of your information is entertaining, but is on shaky historical ground. Tom Glover is for the most part quite right. If and when the LDM is found it will be found much closer to the Massacre Grounds than the eastern end of the range....IMHO
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Joe Ribaudo
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History
Jesse,
If Aurum wishes to supply further information on his rich historical ancestry, he will do so. I am not at liberty to provide information on any of the members of this forum.
Right now, the sky is pitch black, so what is obvious at one point in time and from one view, becomes less than obvious depending on ones perspective.
Until such time as you dig up these graves, your proof is nothing more than a story.
It would appear that you have not read Dr. Glover's book. If you had, you would know that he gives a fairly complete history, including "which branch", starting on page 55 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz" and ending on page 66.
Since no one is left alive from that period, we must all rely on historical books. You have intimated that you know more about the Peralta's than Dr. Glover. I am not saying that is not possible, but you will need more than "no offence" and "kinda wrong" to make your case here.
Dick Holmes was not "friends" with Jacob Waltz, he was a casual acquaintance. There were people there during that 24 hour period, who, no doubt, made every effort to get the location of Waltz's mine out of him.
They found nothing. It seems obvious that he gave nothing. No point in being that "fly-on-the-wall".
Why do you believe "Chief Chuntz" was involved in the deaths at the Massacre Grounds? Why not Chalipun and his band? He was know to be in the Superstitions in the early 1860s.
TGH,
I appreciate that you "agree" with me on the 65/66 date for the "finding" of the "remains". We have disagreed so many times in the past, that it pains me to point out that I made no such statement.
There is a good deal of information that is posted on this forum, that
"is on shaky historical ground". That does not include the posts of Aurum and Dr. Glover. I know I am leavinng out a number of people who have done there historical homework, but it's late.
Respectfully,
Joe
If Aurum wishes to supply further information on his rich historical ancestry, he will do so. I am not at liberty to provide information on any of the members of this forum.
Right now, the sky is pitch black, so what is obvious at one point in time and from one view, becomes less than obvious depending on ones perspective.
Until such time as you dig up these graves, your proof is nothing more than a story.
It would appear that you have not read Dr. Glover's book. If you had, you would know that he gives a fairly complete history, including "which branch", starting on page 55 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz" and ending on page 66.
Since no one is left alive from that period, we must all rely on historical books. You have intimated that you know more about the Peralta's than Dr. Glover. I am not saying that is not possible, but you will need more than "no offence" and "kinda wrong" to make your case here.
Dick Holmes was not "friends" with Jacob Waltz, he was a casual acquaintance. There were people there during that 24 hour period, who, no doubt, made every effort to get the location of Waltz's mine out of him.
They found nothing. It seems obvious that he gave nothing. No point in being that "fly-on-the-wall".
Why do you believe "Chief Chuntz" was involved in the deaths at the Massacre Grounds? Why not Chalipun and his band? He was know to be in the Superstitions in the early 1860s.
TGH,
I appreciate that you "agree" with me on the 65/66 date for the "finding" of the "remains". We have disagreed so many times in the past, that it pains me to point out that I made no such statement.
There is a good deal of information that is posted on this forum, that
"is on shaky historical ground". That does not include the posts of Aurum and Dr. Glover. I know I am leavinng out a number of people who have done there historical homework, but it's late.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Thomas Glover
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Knun and Joe,
I may well be a year early in my date. It could be 1865/’66, and not 1864/’65. I do not have access to my materials here at my father’s house. I will check that when I have the opportunity, as for being there in late October of 1864, well that would depend on whether or not the massacre would have already taken place. If it had then the sign would be even fresher. My guess is yes it had taken place by then, but WDIK. I would, however, want to skip being there when it was taking place!
I do not necessarily associate the finding of the remains in what we call the Massacre Grounds by Co. F of the Arizona Volunteers with Camp/Fort McDowell's existence. I do think that it may have to do with the movement associated with Co. F being moved from south/central Arizona to the Prescott area.
Thomas
I may well be a year early in my date. It could be 1865/’66, and not 1864/’65. I do not have access to my materials here at my father’s house. I will check that when I have the opportunity, as for being there in late October of 1864, well that would depend on whether or not the massacre would have already taken place. If it had then the sign would be even fresher. My guess is yes it had taken place by then, but WDIK. I would, however, want to skip being there when it was taking place!
I do not necessarily associate the finding of the remains in what we call the Massacre Grounds by Co. F of the Arizona Volunteers with Camp/Fort McDowell's existence. I do think that it may have to do with the movement associated with Co. F being moved from south/central Arizona to the Prescott area.
Thomas
24 hr. time frame
Knun,
Your scenario is an interesting one to say the least. For me the 24 hour period I would like to go back to would be the placement of the mislabeled “ Peralta” Stones. I say mislabeled because I don’t believe the Peralta’s had anything to do with them. I think they should be labeled the “ Jesuit “ Stones. Tho I cant give you the exact date I will try to narrow it down. It would be June of 1767, I don’t have some papers in front of me here but I believe the expulsion of the Jesuits was in June of 1767.
I know the Stone maps are a controversial topic for a lot of the forum members, especially those who believe they are fake. I on the other hand believe all of them are real and that they lead to something other than the “ Lost Dutchman Mine “ of Jacob Waltz.
That’s my two cents worth! Which of course is just my opinion.
Great thread Knun.
Rochha
Your scenario is an interesting one to say the least. For me the 24 hour period I would like to go back to would be the placement of the mislabeled “ Peralta” Stones. I say mislabeled because I don’t believe the Peralta’s had anything to do with them. I think they should be labeled the “ Jesuit “ Stones. Tho I cant give you the exact date I will try to narrow it down. It would be June of 1767, I don’t have some papers in front of me here but I believe the expulsion of the Jesuits was in June of 1767.
I know the Stone maps are a controversial topic for a lot of the forum members, especially those who believe they are fake. I on the other hand believe all of them are real and that they lead to something other than the “ Lost Dutchman Mine “ of Jacob Waltz.
That’s my two cents worth! Which of course is just my opinion.
Great thread Knun.
Rochha
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
24 hour
Joe,
I believe R. Holmes was more than a casual friend. Where do you get that? It was said R. Holmes helped Jacob dig up Weisner at Walkers Ranch in 1890 to rebury him. It is said R. Holmes helped Jacob sell bullion. It is said Jacob told R. Holmes of a cache that he later retrieved. How about the court winnings. I believe R. Holmes was in neutral territory with the powers to be and that he was on a friendly basis with everyone unless he became nosey. That is why R. Holmes is written to not know where the L.D.M. is. Im not saying he did for sure but I believe he wanted to stay out of the matter. Richard Holmes was more of a player than you think. And he played it safe.
Here is an account that helps with Chuntz.
"The U.S. started sending Union Troops into Arizona more or less concentrating on a grand sweep eastward from the forts on the Colorado River, hitting the Yumas Mohaves by slow painful degrees, but allowing the ones who realized the futility of fighting to surrender and live peacefully by the forts. Of course there were others who refused to surrender and fled instigating many young warriors and even women and kids to flee. They were joined by other Indians such as the Hassayampas and Yavapais, Verdes, Mazatzals and Tontos. They fled into the Salt River Canyon and were joined by the Sierra Azule Mexican Survivors who instigated them to attack and massacre the Pima Home Guard at Indian Gardens. The Apaches under Chief Chuntz Massacred the Pima Home Guard and recaptured their relatives."
Can you add anything to this that gives you ideas, helps or hinders? That is what this is all about. I'm sure the estimated massacre date is a big factor. Can you help?
I believe, from other supportive accounts, there was a running battle-massacre starting at Indian Gardens, now Indian Spr., and ending at the Massacre Grounds. I don't know if Chuntz is responsible for the Massacre Grounds. There is other explainations of course, but one thing is for sure to me, the M.G. are not Peralta. The Home Guard definitely had loot to loose and also was combined of a few types of people. So the remains could be of any descent and any clothing, items etc.
I knew you would argue the night sky. Thats funny. Have a good day.
Jesse
I believe R. Holmes was more than a casual friend. Where do you get that? It was said R. Holmes helped Jacob dig up Weisner at Walkers Ranch in 1890 to rebury him. It is said R. Holmes helped Jacob sell bullion. It is said Jacob told R. Holmes of a cache that he later retrieved. How about the court winnings. I believe R. Holmes was in neutral territory with the powers to be and that he was on a friendly basis with everyone unless he became nosey. That is why R. Holmes is written to not know where the L.D.M. is. Im not saying he did for sure but I believe he wanted to stay out of the matter. Richard Holmes was more of a player than you think. And he played it safe.
Here is an account that helps with Chuntz.
"The U.S. started sending Union Troops into Arizona more or less concentrating on a grand sweep eastward from the forts on the Colorado River, hitting the Yumas Mohaves by slow painful degrees, but allowing the ones who realized the futility of fighting to surrender and live peacefully by the forts. Of course there were others who refused to surrender and fled instigating many young warriors and even women and kids to flee. They were joined by other Indians such as the Hassayampas and Yavapais, Verdes, Mazatzals and Tontos. They fled into the Salt River Canyon and were joined by the Sierra Azule Mexican Survivors who instigated them to attack and massacre the Pima Home Guard at Indian Gardens. The Apaches under Chief Chuntz Massacred the Pima Home Guard and recaptured their relatives."
Can you add anything to this that gives you ideas, helps or hinders? That is what this is all about. I'm sure the estimated massacre date is a big factor. Can you help?
I believe, from other supportive accounts, there was a running battle-massacre starting at Indian Gardens, now Indian Spr., and ending at the Massacre Grounds. I don't know if Chuntz is responsible for the Massacre Grounds. There is other explainations of course, but one thing is for sure to me, the M.G. are not Peralta. The Home Guard definitely had loot to loose and also was combined of a few types of people. So the remains could be of any descent and any clothing, items etc.
I knew you would argue the night sky. Thats funny. Have a good day.
Jesse
Last edited by Jesse J. Feldman on Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Help?
Jesse,
Since you put your story in quoatation marks, it will make it much easier to help you, if you give me a starting point. What source are you quoting?
I would ask the same question concerning your comments on
"R. Holmes".
Right now, most of the things you are saying sound like someone laying the groundwork for a new book on the LDM exposing "new, never before seen evidence" which will create a "stir" in the "Dutch Hunting Community"
Where is Peter when we need someone to keep score?
I think Dr. Glover is so far ahead in the "proof" game, that we should probably invoke the "mercy rule". At what point will you provide any proof for anything you have said here, other than your "raining today" statement?
Not having read everything there is to read concerning the history of Arizona, I will assume you will put me in my place at any moment. I will have no problem "eating crow" when that moment comes, but you will need more than a few quotation marks.
Just keeping it light.
Respectfully,
Joe
Since you put your story in quoatation marks, it will make it much easier to help you, if you give me a starting point. What source are you quoting?
I would ask the same question concerning your comments on
"R. Holmes".
Right now, most of the things you are saying sound like someone laying the groundwork for a new book on the LDM exposing "new, never before seen evidence" which will create a "stir" in the "Dutch Hunting Community"
Where is Peter when we need someone to keep score?
I think Dr. Glover is so far ahead in the "proof" game, that we should probably invoke the "mercy rule". At what point will you provide any proof for anything you have said here, other than your "raining today" statement?
Not having read everything there is to read concerning the history of Arizona, I will assume you will put me in my place at any moment. I will have no problem "eating crow" when that moment comes, but you will need more than a few quotation marks.
Just keeping it light.
Respectfully,
Joe