As a topic for discussion I present a possible Dutch Hunter life cycle.
Obviously basic character has an influence on the impact of various
stages:
There seems to be a life cycle for the Superstition Mountain prospector, also
known as a Dutch hunter. The following is the worst-case scenario.
1. Attraction to the mountains due to a quest for adventure, wealth, or both.
2. Acquiring or developing a unique knowledge giving a rational or irrational hope.
3. Expending considerable effort and/or wealth in pursuing that knowledge.
4. Realizing one has seriously damaged his personal wealth, career, or health
5. Sharing the damage in step four by seeking to involve others.
6. Admitting defeat, probably out of necessity, advanced years, or poor health.
7. Write a book to mine the tourists, rather than the mountain, a much more
productive enterprise. If the defeat is total and years advanced he will tell all he knows.
Can anyone propose any stages I missed?
Perhaps their is a different cycle for the part time hunter.
Were all the knowledgeable Dutch hunters to gather in weekly meetings and share all they knew, a process known as brainstorming, the search could probably be quickly concluded.
Due to the nature of the quest, information only flows freely toward the end of a lifetime
in the form of a book and not the give and take of a logical discussion. With these limitations the acquiring of knowledge takes decades and the loss of information may be greater than new revelations.
The book writing part is admirable to me for those that have the skill.
I didn't want to leave the impression I thought otherwise.
Just an attempt to perk things up a bit.
Harry
Dutch Hunter Life Cycle
Harry,
I'm not too sure that authors of LDM-type tomes are ready to retire after penning and publishing their epics. If you take a look at LDM books, I'd say a good chunk, if not the majority, are self-published affairs and most are done out of labors of love, rather than the hope of financial gain. I'd be surprised if most of the self-published stuff made a dime in profit for the author.
I think most folks who go this route feel that they want to leave SOMETHING of their search for posterity...whether they think they were close to the prize or not.
Your other points make some sense, though not for most present-day hunters I think.
P
I'm not too sure that authors of LDM-type tomes are ready to retire after penning and publishing their epics. If you take a look at LDM books, I'd say a good chunk, if not the majority, are self-published affairs and most are done out of labors of love, rather than the hope of financial gain. I'd be surprised if most of the self-published stuff made a dime in profit for the author.
I think most folks who go this route feel that they want to leave SOMETHING of their search for posterity...whether they think they were close to the prize or not.
Your other points make some sense, though not for most present-day hunters I think.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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No Laughing Matter
Harry,
I saw nothing unusual in your list and nothing of humor as Nicho suggests.
Seemed fairly straightforward to me. I did not understand your labeling the list as "worst-case scenario".
One part of my own cycle that I thought was fairly normal for everyone was naming the children "Dutch" and "Hunter". The wife fussed a little, but holding the credit cards gave me a lot of leverage. I had hoped for boys, but our girls are just fine. Both now spit tobaco with the best of em.
The wife has refused to have any more kids, says she's afraid to have a girl named "Jacob", but I still hold the credit cards. I will let you know the outcome of our little tiff.
Hopefully you will add more stuff to your list as I have much bigger cycle than you have given us here.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo (Snowbeard)
I saw nothing unusual in your list and nothing of humor as Nicho suggests.
Seemed fairly straightforward to me. I did not understand your labeling the list as "worst-case scenario".
One part of my own cycle that I thought was fairly normal for everyone was naming the children "Dutch" and "Hunter". The wife fussed a little, but holding the credit cards gave me a lot of leverage. I had hoped for boys, but our girls are just fine. Both now spit tobaco with the best of em.
The wife has refused to have any more kids, says she's afraid to have a girl named "Jacob", but I still hold the credit cards. I will let you know the outcome of our little tiff.
Hopefully you will add more stuff to your list as I have much bigger cycle than you have given us here.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo (Snowbeard)
Reply
I also agree that most who write, do so as labors of love. Peter is right. few make much money selling books.
The only exceptions would be Storm's "Thunder Gods Gold," Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine," and Gentry's "The Killer Mountains." Storm's if nothing else because he sold the screen rights to Columbia Pictures. And Ely's and Gentry's because they were published by major publishing houses. Of all, I would not be surprised if Gentry's made the most because of the side publicity going on and the time frame in the public consciousness that it came out. Only one other exception would be perhaps Jenning's book - and only because it came out from a major publisher and was distributed well.
I know if I ever wrote a book I would not expect any compensation. It would be simply a matter - to me - of the "telling my story" and "setting the record straight." Nothing more. I am sure that is how many authors feel.
To them, we take off our hats.
Regarding the cycle of a Dutch Hunter:
I myself followed this process:
A "believer" (because I did not know better)
A skeptic (because I learned more)
A hard-core skeptic (because I learned much more)
Then... a believer (because I learned even more)
Then, a hard-core believer (because I "received secret information")
Then, a one-sided believer (because I "figured out" some things)
And then... a more sedate hard-core believer (because I see no results - other than the sheer joy of experiencing history - from my efforts)
Next... perhaps in my "old age"... I will be more open to other ideas I currently toss aside... (only time will tell...)
The only exceptions would be Storm's "Thunder Gods Gold," Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine," and Gentry's "The Killer Mountains." Storm's if nothing else because he sold the screen rights to Columbia Pictures. And Ely's and Gentry's because they were published by major publishing houses. Of all, I would not be surprised if Gentry's made the most because of the side publicity going on and the time frame in the public consciousness that it came out. Only one other exception would be perhaps Jenning's book - and only because it came out from a major publisher and was distributed well.
I know if I ever wrote a book I would not expect any compensation. It would be simply a matter - to me - of the "telling my story" and "setting the record straight." Nothing more. I am sure that is how many authors feel.
To them, we take off our hats.
Regarding the cycle of a Dutch Hunter:
I myself followed this process:
A "believer" (because I did not know better)
A skeptic (because I learned more)
A hard-core skeptic (because I learned much more)
Then... a believer (because I learned even more)
Then, a hard-core believer (because I "received secret information")
Then, a one-sided believer (because I "figured out" some things)
And then... a more sedate hard-core believer (because I see no results - other than the sheer joy of experiencing history - from my efforts)
Next... perhaps in my "old age"... I will be more open to other ideas I currently toss aside... (only time will tell...)
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Joe Ribaudo
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Do We?
Wiz,
"I'm almost afraid to ask...
When you and your wife go dancing, do you...?
Naahhh!"
Well, of course, we used to but my goute limits my abilities these days. Having to shift my six-shooter to the side so the wife doesn't get bruised, also makes things a little more difficult.
How do you manage with your own wife, what with all the topos and such?
Respectfully,
Joe
"I'm almost afraid to ask...
When you and your wife go dancing, do you...?
Naahhh!"
Well, of course, we used to but my goute limits my abilities these days. Having to shift my six-shooter to the side so the wife doesn't get bruised, also makes things a little more difficult.
How do you manage with your own wife, what with all the topos and such?
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe,
Tell your wife you could have a boy named Sue! Sorry couldn't resist.
Personally I am very fond of the name Jacob, but I am biased.
I find the cycle of the Dutch Hunter an interesting concept. What I also think about is, if there is any parallel in the early lives of the hunters. I do believe they were probably all adventurers before the mine became so much a part of their lives.
I know from the stories my mom has told me that my dad (Crazy Jake) was always a rather independent person and had his own way of doing things, including getting thrown out of the army. Seems he was upset about something and took his uniform off and burned it in the middle of the base! This is not the action of a necesarily normal personality.
In other words the gold and treasure is the strongest lure, but I think for some the staying power is in the hunt and the adventure of the unknown.
Just a simple observation from a rookie!
Tish
Tell your wife you could have a boy named Sue! Sorry couldn't resist.
Personally I am very fond of the name Jacob, but I am biased.
I find the cycle of the Dutch Hunter an interesting concept. What I also think about is, if there is any parallel in the early lives of the hunters. I do believe they were probably all adventurers before the mine became so much a part of their lives.
I know from the stories my mom has told me that my dad (Crazy Jake) was always a rather independent person and had his own way of doing things, including getting thrown out of the army. Seems he was upset about something and took his uniform off and burned it in the middle of the base! This is not the action of a necesarily normal personality.
In other words the gold and treasure is the strongest lure, but I think for some the staying power is in the hunt and the adventure of the unknown.
Just a simple observation from a rookie!
Tish
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Joe Ribaudo
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Sue
Hello Tish,
Nice to see you are still around and one of the select few who are still talking to me.
We do have a dog named "Suzy" but I doubt she would count.
I think your assessment of Dutch Hunters is probably a pretty good generalization. You might want to add "thin skinned" to the list.
It would seem that I have said some things that are just to far "over the top" for some of the people on this forum. My own brother, Peter, will only utter: hahahahahahahahaha in response to my posts. Aurum no longer speaks to me. Dr. Glover, who I have always treated with the utmost respect has turned up his nose at my comments and questions.
This is what happens to people who try to defend the soldiers of the Indian Wars. I have no doubt that my understanding of history is biased by not being Indian. The fact that we stole this country from the British, the French, the Russians, the Mexicans and the Indians should show the world the type of people we have been and still are. It is no wonder that our efforts to take over the world are being viewed with such alarm.
In "Where White Men Fear to Tread" Russell Means said this: You cannot be everything to everyone. I do not propose to be used in such a fashion by my enemies. I am not a leader. I am an Oglala Lakota patriot. That is all I want and all I need to be. And I am very comfortable with who I am." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
Mr. Means has many friends who are Indian. He also has many enemies who are Indian.
Like Russell, I am very comfortable with who I am and like him, I will continue to live well in the midst of my friends and enemies.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Nice to see you are still around and one of the select few who are still talking to me.
We do have a dog named "Suzy" but I doubt she would count.
I think your assessment of Dutch Hunters is probably a pretty good generalization. You might want to add "thin skinned" to the list.
It would seem that I have said some things that are just to far "over the top" for some of the people on this forum. My own brother, Peter, will only utter: hahahahahahahahaha in response to my posts. Aurum no longer speaks to me. Dr. Glover, who I have always treated with the utmost respect has turned up his nose at my comments and questions.
This is what happens to people who try to defend the soldiers of the Indian Wars. I have no doubt that my understanding of history is biased by not being Indian. The fact that we stole this country from the British, the French, the Russians, the Mexicans and the Indians should show the world the type of people we have been and still are. It is no wonder that our efforts to take over the world are being viewed with such alarm.
In "Where White Men Fear to Tread" Russell Means said this: You cannot be everything to everyone. I do not propose to be used in such a fashion by my enemies. I am not a leader. I am an Oglala Lakota patriot. That is all I want and all I need to be. And I am very comfortable with who I am." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
Mr. Means has many friends who are Indian. He also has many enemies who are Indian.
Like Russell, I am very comfortable with who I am and like him, I will continue to live well in the midst of my friends and enemies.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Dutch Hunters life cycle
Joe,
We all know that the Indian and the Mexican were here before us. The British, French,and Russians would probably no longer exit today if the United States had not got involved in World War II. The British have never liked us and still don't. The Russians have been our enemies since World War II up up until recently.The Indians are now reaping their revenge with all the new casinos.You can't walk into any Walmart in Phoenix without tripping over 200 Mexicans,and the French have always Sucked. So what does this really have to do with the soldiers that were involved in the Indian wars and who Really gives a shit what the rest of the world thinks ?
We all know that the Indian and the Mexican were here before us. The British, French,and Russians would probably no longer exit today if the United States had not got involved in World War II. The British have never liked us and still don't. The Russians have been our enemies since World War II up up until recently.The Indians are now reaping their revenge with all the new casinos.You can't walk into any Walmart in Phoenix without tripping over 200 Mexicans,and the French have always Sucked. So what does this really have to do with the soldiers that were involved in the Indian wars and who Really gives a shit what the rest of the world thinks ?
TERRY - Update your email address. Current one is dead and you will not receive notices.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Does Anyone Care?
Terry,
If I didn't care what the rest of the world thinks, I would not be on this forum. If you don't care, what's the point in participating in this conversation? I am interested in what the other guy thinks, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with him.
Someone else will have to answer your (nicely put) question as I am already on the bad side of enough people. I am almost to the point of answering my own questions as it is.
You wouldn't be a "wolf" in sheep's clothing would you?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
If I didn't care what the rest of the world thinks, I would not be on this forum. If you don't care, what's the point in participating in this conversation? I am interested in what the other guy thinks, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with him.
Someone else will have to answer your (nicely put) question as I am already on the bad side of enough people. I am almost to the point of answering my own questions as it is.
You wouldn't be a "wolf" in sheep's clothing would you?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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And You Are Speaking For Whom?
Peter,
I am not sure who I should ask to convey this message to you, so I will break the rules here and address you directly.
Perhaps you would like to tell someone else the "point" and then they can pass it on to me through another intermediary or even (Heaven forbid) directly.
In the event that Peter can't find the words or someone to put them in print for him, I would love for anyone to explain why some prefer not to reply to me. Perhaps I have never been on the receiving side of a caustic reply or been told (in so many words) that my thinking process was sub-par. That would, of course, make it more difficult for me to understand Peter's "point".
When Peter and some other thin-skinned members pontificate their theories and "history" without sources or any supporting evidence, they should expect some resistance from others. Without that resistance we would break an important link in the learning process. To paraphrase some old words of wisdom, ya can't make a decent omelet without breakin' some eggs.
As for comments concerning soldiers/Indians (Apaches), it is possible I may have been the one to inject them into the conversation, although that's not how I remember it. They are seldom discussed in any way that is connected to the topic here: The LDM.
If you don't want to see what others see, stay away from mirrors. That way you can go through your life in the sure knowledge that you are the best looking SOB on the planet.
I have often followed the thread into discussing "Cowboys and Indians" as you put it. The future will not see that happening again. You may make your little anti-American, revisonist history comments without any opposing words from me, unless it deals directly with the LDM or the history of the Superstition Mountains. You will, once again, be the only one who really (?) knows anything about Apache history. You see, Peter, that is actually the only point here.
The one thing that will not happen here, is that I will not let your "bullshit" silence run me off this forum. For the ladies and those with more delicate sensibilities I apologize for putting it that way, but nothing else seemed to work as well.
You can get what you seem to need around your own dinner table with the family nodding their heads in agreement with your every word. Having said all of that, I will place all of this behind me. If you make a statement that concerns the LDM, I will respond if I feel I have something to add. If I make a comment that makes you mad, you will just have to live with it. If you want to continue your silence, we will all be the losers,
which is agot'eehi.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I am not sure who I should ask to convey this message to you, so I will break the rules here and address you directly.
Perhaps you would like to tell someone else the "point" and then they can pass it on to me through another intermediary or even (Heaven forbid) directly.
In the event that Peter can't find the words or someone to put them in print for him, I would love for anyone to explain why some prefer not to reply to me. Perhaps I have never been on the receiving side of a caustic reply or been told (in so many words) that my thinking process was sub-par. That would, of course, make it more difficult for me to understand Peter's "point".
When Peter and some other thin-skinned members pontificate their theories and "history" without sources or any supporting evidence, they should expect some resistance from others. Without that resistance we would break an important link in the learning process. To paraphrase some old words of wisdom, ya can't make a decent omelet without breakin' some eggs.
As for comments concerning soldiers/Indians (Apaches), it is possible I may have been the one to inject them into the conversation, although that's not how I remember it. They are seldom discussed in any way that is connected to the topic here: The LDM.
If you don't want to see what others see, stay away from mirrors. That way you can go through your life in the sure knowledge that you are the best looking SOB on the planet.
I have often followed the thread into discussing "Cowboys and Indians" as you put it. The future will not see that happening again. You may make your little anti-American, revisonist history comments without any opposing words from me, unless it deals directly with the LDM or the history of the Superstition Mountains. You will, once again, be the only one who really (?) knows anything about Apache history. You see, Peter, that is actually the only point here.
The one thing that will not happen here, is that I will not let your "bullshit" silence run me off this forum. For the ladies and those with more delicate sensibilities I apologize for putting it that way, but nothing else seemed to work as well.
You can get what you seem to need around your own dinner table with the family nodding their heads in agreement with your every word. Having said all of that, I will place all of this behind me. If you make a statement that concerns the LDM, I will respond if I feel I have something to add. If I make a comment that makes you mad, you will just have to live with it. If you want to continue your silence, we will all be the losers,
which is agot'eehi.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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Speaking for Yourself.
Peter,
That was a little hard to follow, but I assume that you were trying to say that you don't need others to speak for you and if you should have anything to say in the future, you will speak for yourself.
No one is speaking to me for you so far, so I must assume no one want's the job. Perhaps it pays to little.
If you need someone else to explain your point for you, perhaps they should explain it to you first. Refusing to clarify your point is, well.....pointless.
I will give you the last word here. It would probably be better if you just stick to English.
Respectfully,
Joe
That was a little hard to follow, but I assume that you were trying to say that you don't need others to speak for you and if you should have anything to say in the future, you will speak for yourself.
No one is speaking to me for you so far, so I must assume no one want's the job. Perhaps it pays to little.
If you need someone else to explain your point for you, perhaps they should explain it to you first. Refusing to clarify your point is, well.....pointless.
I will give you the last word here. It would probably be better if you just stick to English.
Respectfully,
Joe
Tish,
The Joe - Peter sniping aside, I for one would love to hear any stories or anecdotes you might care to share about your dad and his adventures. We've all heard the usual Jake stories, but you have a unique angle on him. I'd like to hear yours, if you don't mind sharing.
And, I don't think there's anyone on this forum that would disagree with your statement about why we REALLY do it.
The Joe - Peter sniping aside, I for one would love to hear any stories or anecdotes you might care to share about your dad and his adventures. We've all heard the usual Jake stories, but you have a unique angle on him. I'd like to hear yours, if you don't mind sharing.
And, I don't think there's anyone on this forum that would disagree with your statement about why we REALLY do it.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Western Apache?
[Peter]
"That might be the way things are now, but...... "
followed by:
"Doo tagoon o'lsa'ni da bil (sounds like "beeshk") doo hasdziih da.
(you who are foolish) (with) (I speak not)"
Joe:
Speaking Apache and trying to think in the language at the same time beyond you?
Tagoon?
Respectfully,
Joe
"That might be the way things are now, but...... "
followed by:
"Doo tagoon o'lsa'ni da bil (sounds like "beeshk") doo hasdziih da.
(you who are foolish) (with) (I speak not)"
Joe:
Speaking Apache and trying to think in the language at the same time beyond you?
Tagoon?
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Jake
Wiz,
The last time Tish saw or heard from her father was the summer of 1965.
She was seven years old.
Jake actually began his search for the LDM in Sept. of 1964.
While I have no doubt there are many childhood stories that she can tell us, I would imagine they are mostly personal. My guess is that the LDM stories you may be interested in, would come from people like Ron, Aurum and some of the old timers who knew him. I was under the impression that Tish came here to learn who the man that was her dad really was. It is my own hope that she knew him as a loving father. If that is not so, I don't really want to know more.
While Peter and I take up valuable space with our childish banter, you should not spend a lot of time reading it. While I am finished with this particular round with my "brother", I have no doubt that I will have something to say about his future posts. The historic nature of the Apache or the Indian fighters will not be part of those statements.
Why don't you tell us something about your own personal search and what you are looking for. I know you have spoken on this in the past, but things change. How is it going? Do you have any stories that have never been published? The one thing I have always tried to do on this forum, is to inject information that has not been well known or know at all. If you read the old Peter/Joe exchanges, you will find a lot of little known pieces of information and new ways of looking at old stories. I am not really into rehashing all those well worn tales.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
The last time Tish saw or heard from her father was the summer of 1965.
She was seven years old.
Jake actually began his search for the LDM in Sept. of 1964.
While I have no doubt there are many childhood stories that she can tell us, I would imagine they are mostly personal. My guess is that the LDM stories you may be interested in, would come from people like Ron, Aurum and some of the old timers who knew him. I was under the impression that Tish came here to learn who the man that was her dad really was. It is my own hope that she knew him as a loving father. If that is not so, I don't really want to know more.
While Peter and I take up valuable space with our childish banter, you should not spend a lot of time reading it. While I am finished with this particular round with my "brother", I have no doubt that I will have something to say about his future posts. The historic nature of the Apache or the Indian fighters will not be part of those statements.
Why don't you tell us something about your own personal search and what you are looking for. I know you have spoken on this in the past, but things change. How is it going? Do you have any stories that have never been published? The one thing I have always tried to do on this forum, is to inject information that has not been well known or know at all. If you read the old Peter/Joe exchanges, you will find a lot of little known pieces of information and new ways of looking at old stories. I am not really into rehashing all those well worn tales.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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Short Temper?
Peter,
Perhaps if you switched to trading long, you would be in a better mood.
Respectfully,
"Brother" Joe
Perhaps if you switched to trading long, you would be in a better mood.
Respectfully,
"Brother" Joe
Joe,
If Tish's memories are too personal, she won't share them. If I had wanted the kind of stories I could get from Ron or Aurum, I would have asked them. Tish won't learn about her dad from me, I didn't know him. What she decides to share or not share is up to her.
My own personal search is coming along nicely. I have many stories that have never (and will never) be published. I am looking for enlightenment. The search for the LDM is only a focal point, a vehicle to use to pursue this end. My results have been far beyond (and different from) anything I ever imagined. To take a line from "Shrek", the search for the LDM is like an onion. You dig and dig until you uncover a layer of information, but just when you think you have a handle on things, that you understand what you are seeing, pow - you break through to another, far more complex layer underneath, and you realize you didn't know anything at all!
This sounds like I'm tying to be obtuse, but it's as specific as I care to get.
Like everyone else, if I never find any gold I'll be perfectly happy just to keep looking. The things I have found are far more valuable.
In fact, things would get quite complicated very quickly if I DID find gold!
If Tish's memories are too personal, she won't share them. If I had wanted the kind of stories I could get from Ron or Aurum, I would have asked them. Tish won't learn about her dad from me, I didn't know him. What she decides to share or not share is up to her.
My own personal search is coming along nicely. I have many stories that have never (and will never) be published. I am looking for enlightenment. The search for the LDM is only a focal point, a vehicle to use to pursue this end. My results have been far beyond (and different from) anything I ever imagined. To take a line from "Shrek", the search for the LDM is like an onion. You dig and dig until you uncover a layer of information, but just when you think you have a handle on things, that you understand what you are seeing, pow - you break through to another, far more complex layer underneath, and you realize you didn't know anything at all!
This sounds like I'm tying to be obtuse, but it's as specific as I care to get.
Like everyone else, if I never find any gold I'll be perfectly happy just to keep looking. The things I have found are far more valuable.
In fact, things would get quite complicated very quickly if I DID find gold!