Two Dutchmen

[S.C.]

I present the following (light-heartedly) as a means of perhaps generating some discussion again.

A couple of years ago, the following arguement was presented on another treasure hunting forum. That forum has since become defunct. However, for what it is worth, here was the gist of it...

"There were two Dutchmen. The one in Phoenix had no money. He was Jacob Waltz. The real Dutchman was named Waltzer. He is the one who had gold. He rode the stage out of Florence and would always want to be dropped off on the south side of the Superstitions near present day "Florence Junction." He would go into the mountians for several days then come out with gold. The stage driver saw the gold. That is who the real Dutchman was. Not the guy in Phoenix. You got to remember, he had to go where there was water. Keep that in mind. He had to go where there was water... He wasn't gone that long, so he had to go where there was water... And his name was Waltzer. Not Waltz, it was Waltzer..."


I know of at least one person who is a member of this present forum who knows all about this... I hope he is biting his tongue now... I know his fingers are probably still sore from typing so many messages to set things straight on the subject then...

Anyone have any comments on those statements that were presented back then?

[Tracy L Hawkins]

SC
When Ernie Province and I were living out there we had an old mexican come into the store with a story like that, He swore his father was the stage driverand had seen the gold. Never placed much stock in the story as that is the only place I had heard it
TLH

[Aurum]

xx

[S.C.]

Aurum,

You are correct. The basis of that old posting was a mis-interpretation of the Waggoner story. That map and the story are in Storm's book. I believe others have printed it as well.

The name was Waggoner. But, the person who posted that story/arguement back then kept saying the man's name was Waltzer, Waltzer, Waltzer. It was somewhat frustrating. No matter how much people kept trying to correct the person - he kept saying Waltzer.

The "near water" issue is obvious. Nobody does nothing in the Superstitions without water - or being near it.

S.C.

[Wiz]

Wait - I thought the two Dutchmen were Jacobs and Ludi??

[Aurum]

xx

[Wiz]

You got to remember, he had to go where there was water. Keep that in mind. He had to go where there was water... He wasn't gone that long, so he had to go where there was water...

Sounds backwards to me.

[S.C.]

Welcome "back" everyone.

[Peter]

Well SC.

I am glad you received some intelligent replys on this subject. I was about to grab my shotgun and stick it in my mouth if I had to deal with this again.....lol

[Heidi]

SC
Why did you say you presented this topic "light-heartedly"? Is it some kind of inside joke? I don't want to look into a story that is not true.
H

[S.C.]

Yes. There is an inside joke there. Peter had an on-going battle with that guy years ago. No matter what Peter tried to tell the guy, he kept going back to the "Waltzer" story... and the importance of water...

The truth is, the Waggoner story was the root of the mis-interpretation. I present it to get discussion going about Waggoner and if his story had any credence. Does it?...

That story seems to point to an area over by Coffee Flat Mountain... Squaws Teet, as Bob Ward would have called it... That area was where Bob Ward's interpretation of the Stone Maps (and other things) led him. Also, others like George Miller (George Draculich) and Henry Bruderlin (James Brolin's father) were interested in that area. So.... was the Waggoner tale that off base? Or could there have been something there?

[Tracy L Hawkins]

Does anyone have a map showing the old stage road from Florance to Mesa?? The old mexican I refered to in a previous post took Ernie and I to a spot where there apeared to have been an old road and said that this was the spot that his father had let this guy off and later picked him up ----he pointed towards thered tanks as the dirrection he went, I would like to see if a map of the stage road corralates with this spot.

TLH

[Aurum]

xx

[Tracy L Hawkins]

Aurum
Thanks for the reply
I have tried to follow the stage route from the air a couple times ( I am a pilot ) and the faint traces I could see were to the east of highway 60, closer to the mountains. I believe you are right about the water as there are tanks about every ten miles---how long they have been there I don't know but likely for a long time, they may have been improved in later years for cattle but the location wouldn't have changed.
TLH

[Peter]

Coffee Flat is an interesting mountain. Was Waltz sighted climbing up one of its tributary canyons? Who can say.

I have also seen Coffee Flat refered to as Pankins Mountain. You might want to check your Bark Notes for the story of Pankin (aka Blank). Earnest Pankin spent much time in the vicinity of Coffee Flat on the information he obtained from a friend he met in Alaska.

Was Coffee Flat the Swampers Oxbow?

[Ron]

Peter,

You are right, I believe. Chuck Aylor, who I knew well, always refered to it as the oxbow. The whole Panknin story , I think hasn't generated much interest, compared to everythin else.

[Peter]

Ron

You are correct about Pankin. There has never seemed to be much interest generated by him amongst latter day Dutch Hunters. However, he seemed to have caught the attention of Bark and Ely as Ely tried to convince Jim Bark to go "partners" with Pankin, based on the information he received from his friend in Alaska.

If Pankin was correct about his info..then he was one of the few people who may have had a map to the mine drawn by an Anglo whose best interests were served if Pankin actually found the mine. Some of the Pankin clues intrigue to this day: the Oxbow, the Z-Trail, the Flat Topped Mtn, the Stair Step Cliffs...all of these clues (I beleive) still fit a certain area of the mountains today and can be readily seen if one is standing in the proper canyon.