Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

[Joe Ribaudo]

DED,

I don't know if I would be so hard on the content of Helen Corbin's book.
There is a good deal of information in there, some having nothing to do with the LDM, but historically interesting.

I believe the "spitting and hissing" may have had more to do with people believing that a trust had been broken rather than the information being inaccurate.

Perhaps a little more time and effort should have been spent vetting her sources and "documents", but she may have been under some pressure from her publisher to "get it all together".

I would not take anything Corbin says, of importance, as anything but factual until it is proved otherwise. As you pointed out, there are a number of small, some might say foolish, mistakes. They seem inconsequential considering the volume of material, and the scope and objectives of the book.

I pass over a good many book on the LDM and this was one I did not purchase right away. Because of a number of comments on this forum, I decided to buy it. It was worth the money. I have spent a great deal more, on books or pamphlets that did not contain one-tenth the information.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

WELL JOE; If you have the same info. from 4 different sources and you want to use it BUT 1 source says no they want theirs kept confidential BUT you have to use some of the material for the story do you use the material? Who do you give the credit?Which source since they are all pretty much the same words, BUT this one thinks he,s the only source when everyone knows about it, What do you do? MAYBE you are NOT using that man,s source BUT someone else,s very simialer to the NOT use source? AND he think,s it his? JOE when you have 50 years of material from all sources much of it is 5plycated and someone will think you are using his source and get mad.. AS I said Ms Corbin put togather a good general informative book about the LDM. She did not say or claim the material was her own investigative work, Claim it as the living truth, or anything She just said here What makes the most sense out of of 2 ton,s of material we have accumalated over the last 50 years of our investigating the Jacob Waltz story. period. AS for these people claiming the material used was theirs, CRAP if one had it 5 dozen had it BUT if asked I am sure they would each one swear that THEY were the only ones who knew that, and gave it to the Corbin,s. So much for now. Bill Hi DED. ALSO over the past 50 years the Corbin,s did not have the investigating method that we have now, They had to rely on the word of mouth mostly. You cannot judge their material by todays standard,s.....

[bill711]

UH HUH, UH HUH NOVICE yes yes yes YOU do make mistakes huh? NOW I do not know if I can beleive anything you write now until I personnally check it out. It might be faulty figuring?? Bill HUMM

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

As I understand it, your theory does not fit this particular case.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

huummmmm looks very dark indeed hummmm. Bill

[novice]

"spitting and hissing" - "I would not take anything Corbin says, of importance, as anything but factual"

I'm not sure where I am in this conversation. I can tell you up front that I cannot PROVE the manifest as presented in Corbin is NOT A FACT! I can tell you that all I can do is try to VERIFY that it is a FACT. That's why you see so many of the terms: appears, maybe, possibly, could be, etc. used in everyone's posts. They couldn't PROVE O. J. killed his wife.

I have reviewed my posts on this subject and I think there were 3 main points and these all had to do with a public source. Not the kind of information that had been passed down verbally over the last 100 years that easily becomes garbled.

1. There was no ship Olbers arriving in New Orleans on November 17, 1839 in the conventional public sources. (National Archives Microfilm for Ship Passenger Lists arriving at Ports in the United States)

2. The ISTG site does not have the Arrival of this Olbers with this manifest posted on their site.

3. The Manifest for the Ship Cimbria that Gottfried and Helene Petrasch (Rhiney's parents) arrived on. This was initially added to compliment Corbin on her use of primary images in her book and then after I reviewed it, it seemed improbable that these were Rhiney and Herman Petrasch's parents. I commented that this was not the same kind of error that "may be" involved with the Olber's Manifest. I have done no research on this aspect of the story!

I will also say that the Manifest is IMPORTANT to me as it's tentacles seem to reach into many aspects of the Lost Dutchman Mine Story. It gives legitimacy to the boyhood friend Jacob Weiss (Wieser), provides a tie to a sister who married a Schmidt that ended up in Kansas/Missouri that Jacob sent money to, and also suggests a brother of Jacob (Ignote Waltz).

People have to make up their own minds as to what makes sense to them!

Perhaps some of you might enjoy a short research quiz regarding the Olber's manifest. If so try this.

On November 8, 1851 the THIRD ship named Olbers (The Corbin Olbers was number 2) arrived in New Orleans.

Go to the Immigrant Ship Transcribers Guild site.

http://www.immigrantships.net/

Select Passenger Lists from the Tool Bar and then Select Volume IV.

Enter Olbers in the Search window and then find the one that landed in New Orleans, November 8, 1851.

RECORD the name of the Ship's Captain (Master)

Get your Corbin Book (2002) and you find the 1851 Olbers Captain's name in her book.

Hint: The manifest is the key.

If you find the name, please post your thoughts on the meaning.

Smoking Gun, Coincidence, Immaterial, etc.

Have fun!

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

"spitting and hissing" - "I would not take anything Corbin says, of importance, as anything but factual"

"I'm not sure where I am in this conversation. I can tell you up front that I cannot PROVE the manifest as presented in Corbin is NOT A FACT! I can tell you that all I can do is try to VERIFY that it is a FACT. That's why you see so many of the terms: appears, maybe, possibly, could be, etc. used in everyone's posts."

Which is why I take her "evidence" as factual, until it is proven to be false.

There are a lot of records from that era, which seem to be at odds with each other. Here is something you might find interesting:

"The German ship 'Olbers', with an English Captain, Exter, left the German port of Bremen, September 10, 1834, carrying 5 immigrants and arived in Jamaica near the end of December."

Exter and the Olbers in 1834? Did he also skipper the Russian Frigate named Olbers?

The Fechter, Exter and Fochter, sounds like a law firm, coincidence, can only be straightened out by seeing the original documents. My guess is that it is a transcriber's error.

Even though the passage time seems unlikely, I would like to see a little more time trying to verifying the manifest before calling it a hoax.

You have done a ..... ( trying to cut down on my adjectives here) job trying to pin this down. I wouldn't call it a "smoking gun" just yet, but it certainly seems suspicious.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

SEE NOVICE; If you hang in here you will be as crazy as the rest of us and turn to hissing and spitting out of frustration. It,s a way of letting off the stream buildup and clears the mind up for another round of study. It,s so hard to figure out if it,s a lie, a misprint or mistranslation or what??? bill P.S. I do give Ms Corbin the credit for poking a hole in the dam of informative books that we have now: before everyone was sitting on their information and not saying anything..

[novice]

My quiz went over like a lead balloon.

I'm going to post the answer on the chance someone else tried it or some may not have had all of the resources to work through it. Joe was the only respondent and I'm pretty sure he found the answer, although his post certainly didn't reveal it.

1. The CAPTAIN on the Ship Olbers arriving November 8, 1851 in New Orleans was C. H. Fechter.

2. C. H. Fechter appears in Corbin's book on Page 9 in the H. W. Exter Declaration Statement on November 17, 1839.

3. C. H. Fechter is listed as the COLLECTOR for the Port of New Orleans, District of Mississippi

C. H. Fechter, Captain of the German Ship Olbers in 1851 and the U. S. Collector for the Port of New Orleans in 1839? Was this the same person, a different person with the same name or someone trying to fill in what they thought may have been a blank?

Perhaps the following observations will provide some additional insight. I also tried to identify the COLLECTOR when reviewing the microfilms. I had seen a couple of the Declarations on the ISTG Site where a transcriber had tried to assign a name to the Collector. There is a Collector Notation on the lower right-hand portion of the preprinted form.

I reviewed numerous manifests and it became apparent that the Collector's signature was not required. It appeared to me that the blanks on the form (for the larger passenger ships) were filled in by a ship's clerk and the Captain simply signed the form, usually in the area somewhere above the Collector Notation.

I concluded the reason for the confusion was that in some cases the Captain's signature was so messy it wasn't apparent that's who it was.
The ISTG transcriber's COLLECTOR on the November 8, 1851 manifest is a good example.

This was the ISTG transcriber's entry. "C. H. Fochter ???tz* Collector"

It was obviously difficult to read and he assumed that this must be the Collector's signature when in reality it was the Captain's signature.

I haven't seen this particular manifest, but the Name of the Ship's Master would probably have been filled in by a clerk at the beginning of the form (I C. H. Fechter, Master......)

If everyone's not totally bored to death by now, I do promise to refrain form anymore quizzes.

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

Sorry, I should have elaborated a little more, but that tends to get some people crosswise.

As I said, I think you would need to see the original documents to get a better idea of what is going on here.

Because this was all done in longhand, it's possible the transcriber may have gotten confused. A good many portions of the manifest were not readable, and the transcribers had to guess.

That may not be what happened, but without seeing the original, it's a crap shoot.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Thomas Glover]

When leaving the house I grabbed some reading material. It was not what I thought it was, it was a copy of the Bark Notes, the version done by Thomas Probert. I noticed on page 6 the following footnote added by Probert: “The name Jacob Weiser was an alias used by Waltz to enter the U.S. at Baltimore in 1837.”

I knew Thomas Probert, but I never asked him his source for this item. I neither endorse or otherwise this statement, just thought there might be some in the forum that may find it interesting.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Thomas,

It would be interesting to know where that story came from. Why would Waltz need an "alias" to enter this country? That seems a stretch in those days for any reason that might seem plausable today.

As I understand it, the Weiser story came from Julia Thomas and or Rhiney (from Waltz) and through them to Bark/Ely. Did they make up the Wieser story, as we know it, out of whole cloth? If so, what was the value of the fiction?

I understand that you are just relaying this story to us, but do you have any ideas related to my questions?

I hope all is well with you and the family.

Respectfully,

Joe

[S.C.]

It could be Probert got that reference from Milton Rose.

Rose had many interesting ideas about Waltz, his family, and origins. I believe Waltz using the name Weiser - or that both were one and the same - was one. Interesting thoughts. But many of Rose's theories have not been verified.

Rose's article "The Last Days of Jacob Waltz" might be of interest to some. It appears in one of the earliest volumes of the Superstition Mountain Journal (I do not remember which one). But I do know it was was reprinted and also appears in Volume 15.

[bill711]

I saw where you had c.h. all up and down the page BUT I couldn,t say anything about it. I haven,t seen the Olber. fest. I would not trust anyone named probert. He seems like a mighty poor horse to BET your money on. I still stay with the helen and rhiny story for some reason. No hissing and spitting here for now BUT be careful; I have my feelers all stung out accross the floor, Somebody is bound to touch them somewhere and I can get OFF-EN-DED. and have a hissy fit. and go silent. bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Steve,

I can remember smiling as I read some of Mr. Rose's theories. Uncle Obie used to tell some stories like that. I knew they were complete fiction, but he knew they were factual.

History is rewritten every day.

Respectfully,

Joe

[azdave35]

i wouldnt put much stock in what milton rose said....he was a good story teller...thats about it

[Joe Ribaudo]

Dave,

I would, on the other hand, place a lot of stock in anything that azdave35 says, and have.

Always a good idea to know who to trust.

Take care.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

To All; I give the Milton Rose some credit for his early days work in hunting treasure and lost mines, and I do beleive that he found several. BUT He said in one mine Him and his pardner only got about 20,000 for their gold, NOW in the 19teens 10,000 dollars was a good amount of money! Rose said it didn,t last long, I wondered What he did with his money? Cigerettes and whisky were not that high? What was he spending his money on? I beleive he did find several old mines but he blowed the money? I beleive he said he found the lost soap maker mine in the 4 peaks country and got 20,000 plus out of it but he said it wasn,t so much? What was he doing with it? In the teens a average worker only earned about 40.00 dollars a month. I was very disapointed in the Rose, I beleive he was wastful and the older he got the more disparate he seemed to get for money. I would not have trusted him for anything. Bill

[azdave35]

rose also said he found lost mines in the estrella mountains...and the pure conception mine...and many others...most treasure hunters never find one lost mine...let alone the 2 dozen or so he said he found....

[bill711]

Well az. I have to agree with you. I have found 3 small treasures in my life. 2 of them I made money on because I,m a coin collecter. SO they were worth much more than the 700 or so dollars that were the total amount. The 3rd was a joke on me and my couzin. We did find where the 15000. in gold was supposed to be BUT somebody left us a note wrote on a old wrapper like they used to wrape things in the early days before sacks were used. The note said SUPPRISE I found it first! BUT I left you a little treasure, WE found 1.86 cents in change in the old bisket kettle, that was hide in the rocks over 100 years ago. The money was from 1850 to 1895 so we figured that somebody found the money right away. My cousins grand uncle was a horse raiser and would only sell his horses to the army. He was single and would salt his money away and died without anyone knowing where it was at. His brother said he intended to tell him where it was BUT uncle ott fell over of a heart attack before he actually did. Everyone looked but nobody found it or admitted it. MY take on the deal was a seated quarter and sheild nickle, 1/2 dime. I didn,t want to take it but since I found it My cuz insisted on my taking something for my trouble. He took the old dutch oven and lid with the note and the rest of the change. That loot had been searched for for many years. My couzins still own the land today. They use it for hunting now. When I found that old kettle my blood pressure shot up so high I got dizzy. I had to go back over and sit down where my couzin was, I told him I found the treasure and HE got exited too. We checked to make sure nobody was around and then we was almost afraid to pull it out of its hole in the rock. WE made a deal I would pull it out and he would pull the lid off. I knew when I moved the pot that something was wrong, It was too lite to have that much gold in it. I set it on the ground and told him somebody had robbed us that I thought the pot was empty. He took the lid off and we found the paper and the change in it. BUT the hunt was fun. We were taking a break resting on a big rock when I got up an walked over to the rock bluff to take a leak when I seen it in a hole in the rock facing. Bill

[murphy]

We know that the Passenger List of the Ship Olbers (1) that docked in New Orleans in January of 1839 does not match the Corbin list. The Captain is different also, but he is a Captain of another ship Olbers(2) that arrives in New Orleans on November 8, 1851.

We also know that the Ship Olbers(1) that arrived in New Orleans on January 21, 1839, under Captain Exter, was on its maiden voyage, having been first launched October 1, 1838. This ship was in service from Bremen through 1848, running exclusively from Bremen to North America.

The Immigrants Ships Transcribers Guild has the Olbers(1) Captained by H.W. Exter arriving in New Orleans on Jan. 21, 1839 with 181 passengers and on June 3, 1846 with 191 passengers. Other sources also show arrivals for this Olbers in New Orleans on May 28, 1847 and Nov. 11, 1847.


The ISTG has the ship Olbers(2) Captained by C.H.Fechter (Fochter) Arriving in New Orleans on Nov.8 1851 with 290 passengers.

The ISTG has a third ship Olbers(3) under Captain Exter arriving in New Orleans on December 8, 1836. Two Years before Olbers(1) was built. (Probably the Russian Frigate Alexander Petion renamed Olbers when she arrived in Bremen in 1829)

It could be that when the New Olbers(1) was given to Captain Exter in 1838, the old Olbers(3) was given to Captain Fechter, who would later move up to the new Olbers(2) in 1851. And maybe the oldest Olbers(3) continued to make trips across the ocean, and maybe one of these was to New Orleans on Nov. 17, 1839.

I know, that’s a lot of maybes. But it makes sense. Until we can find the passenger list or how Helen Corbin’s list was found it’s just a guess.

[djui5]

Any updates on this? Did anyone find out where she got her manifest from?

[Gregory E. Davis]

Hi Joe: I was going through the posts under the heading of: "Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest," where I came across a post you made on Sunday, May 8, 2005 at 6:23 am, subject heading; "Das Twist." Here you made the following statement at the end of the post. "I happen to know that Tom Kollenborn keeps tabs on the LDM Forum, and have it on good authority that he was the source for Corbin's manifest." Joe, with all due respect I need to correct you on this statement. Granted, Tom does keep an eye on the Forum, but I know for a fact, absolutely and without question!!!, that Tom did NOT give the Corbin's the ship manifest. I know this for I was visiting the Corbin's with a good friend of mine long before her book was published. It was during this visit that Helen and my friend discussed the subject of the manifest which he had given her along with other papers. I was there and saw the material and heard the discussion. Sorry, but I cannot reveal the name of that person for reasons of confidentiality. It's up to that person to make it know if they want to do so. Respectfully, Gregory E. Davis

[Joe Ribaudo]

Greg,

That post was followed by this one on May 17:

"Redison and Novice,

Are you saying that my "good authority" ain't so good?

===============================================

S.C.,

What do you think?"

My source was a good one, but I must assume that he was wrong. I hope the original source speaks up, but I can see where it would take more than a few words to satisfy the curiosity. I assumed I was wrong long before your post, and was fairly certain I knew who the real source for Helen was. Never thought about my previous mistaken post to be honest.

I refute my assumption, and will now go with a better source,
that being one Gregory E. Davis. I thought the above post put my comments in some doubt. Sorry for any confusion.

Mr. Kollenborn,

I have made more than a few assumptions about you, based on what others have told me and some written statements by you. Always an iffy thing to do, and I apologize for putting your name to any unfounded rumors.

Feel free to castigate me on this Forum, on the phone, E-mail or in person at any time, the 2006 Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous would be a perfect time.

Now how about telling us what you know about the author of the Stone Maps? That assumes you, as the elder statesman of the Dutch Hunting Community, know who carved them. I don't know would be fine.

For those who are scratching their heads, the above is no rumor and is completely a hunch on my part. Mr. Kollenborn can clear it up with one post, as his word is good with me.

Greg, your word is also good with me. Thanks for clearing up the "source" for the Corbin manifest.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Roger]

The ISTG web site has a large number of passenger lists for ships arriving from Europe to a number of American ports. The below page of their site is sorted down to just German departures:

http://immigrantships.net/bremenproj/bremenproject.html

I have searched all of the ship manifests for the 1820's, 1830's, 1840's, and the 1850's in this list and there is not a single "Waltz" immigrant on any of the lists. However, the ISTG continues to translate more manifests and enter them on this web site. Note that the Oblers arrived in New Orleans on 1/21/1839. It is quite possible that the Oblers was able to return to Germany and make another trip to New Orleans and arrive late in 1839 as Helen Corbin's printed manifest shows. I suspect this is the case.

I have sent the ISTG an email to see if they have the manifest for the Oblers arriving in November, 1839.

Roger