The Stone Maps

[Joe Ribaudo]

Aurum,
I must agree, you did not have much to add on Father Rojas. I believe, however, that the only thing you left out, was where the Jesuit Treasure was buried. WOW!
As I understand it, Father Rojas was a traveling inspector for the church for only a short time. I have no doubt, whatsoever, that I am wrong in that assessment. Your insight into the Arizpe Mission was quite a revelation. The harsh punishment and torture of Rojas and Garrucho does raise interesting questions. I think the most interesting question of all is: Why did azmula bring up the good Father? Something tells me we won't find out this year. Azmula, are you holding out on us?

Glad to see you made it back safe and sound. Did you need a boat?

Joe

[azmula]

Joe,
My Mother and Father always told me that anything worth having is worth working for. If the pot at the end of the Stone Map Trail is worth anything we will all have to work to find the trail. I don't intend to tell you where I think it is because like you I still have a lot of searching to do. But I believe in asking thought provoking questions that can lead to more than has been found in the last 150years. Quite honestly the more ridiculing that occurs the more convinced that I am of the intent of the maps. If we stay on the subject we will break the remaining map codes.

There is an enormity of history in and about the SM's but little outside of this thread is going to find El Dorado unless you join a group to loot Indian burial grounds or rob a bank. We all know generally where the Stones refer to, we know when they were carved, by whom, and why. All that is left is the specificity needed for the last leg.

If I say more it wont be worth having. Will it?

azmula

[Aurum]

xx

[Joe Ribaudo]

azmula,

I don't know if you were referring to my post, but there was no ridicule in any of the content or intention to convey that feeling. I believe you have done your homework and way more research then I have. As I have told you before, I think you and I could be bumping elbows in the mountains. It would appear that you are looking for the Jesuit Treasure, like me, and we are likely walking the same trails. The LDM/Cache is more than likely shown on the Stone Maps, but my team will spend little time pursuing that legend.
It does make me feel a little better that "all that is left is the specificity needed for the last leg" in your own search. It would be nice to know what to look for as well as where to look for it.
The records for where Father Rojas did his inspections are available and are detailed as to time and place. I don't believe he made any trips into the Superstitions. Did he store the Stone Maps in Arizpe for a time? That is possible, but only important if you are looking for evidence that they are authentic. The 1847 date on the Stone Maps and the same date at Twin Buttes, and the differences from the surrounding information may be the key to authenticity.
There is enough evidence to convince me that the Peraltas were the author's of the Stone Maps. What I believe shows the location of the LDM on the maps is the best indication for me, but there are many other clues.

Joe

[S.C.]

Charlie,

I have tried - and failed - to find the pdf doucment you refer to. I tried searching using the parameters you state and find nothing close to the referenced document.

Are you able to retrace your steps and give us a complete URL web address?

S.C.

[Aurum]

xx

[Aurum]

xx

[S.C.]

Thanks so much.

[charlie]

S.C.

Sorry about the mis-direction.

Aurum,

Thanks for the cover.

Aurum - AU, gold..interesting selection for a handle.

To All in General,

Who has contact with modern day Jesuits? If I find what I believe lies in the wilderness near Tubac, I may need a contact with the Jesuits.

Does anyone have information on large statues/icons of saints during 1650 to 1800?

I believe I have seen two religious statues laying on the ground in the wilderness. If these are real and not my imagination, they are 50 to 70 meters (210 feet) long.

One may be a bust of "Our Lady of Guadalupe." This is "MY IMAGE" to identify and locate.

The second image may be of "Joseph and Child." The second statue was seen by another member of this group when viewing the images. I do not plan to visit the second area (near the "San Pedro" mine west of Tubac for another year. If someone is interested and can visit the area earlier, I will transmit the data, including image GPS by my estimates. Contact me with email and mailing address so I can drop images and data.

Regarding Rojas and the maps -

I believe the maps are not to the LDM. But that does not mean the maps are invalid. There are several maps and treasures to find. Sounds like the Rojas maps are to several larges cacches of gold, silver and gems.

Money is not the only answer to all success. The older you get, the more you enjoy yourself through the success of others. Just keep me posted.

Besides, how much can you sell a statue for if it is fixed to the ground as a carving on a rock and measures 210 feet long by 30 feet wide. People have to be brought to it rather than taking it to them. I see these statues, if real, being targets for religious retreats and pilgrimages.

[azmula]

It’s time to make Aurum’s life easier. Father Rojas (Roxas) was prominent in the Mexican Jesuit organization and was in charge of several of the mission “chains” in Northern Sonora and Southern Arizona. Rojas made sure that his mission priests were loyal to the church and to him. Rojas traveled often and extensively in the northwest of PA and was noted by the then Visitor General. It was believed that it was his job to spirit away the Jesuit wealth. After his three year tour as the vice-provincial, he returned to Arizpe to his position there as the mission priest there in September of 1766. His picture still hangs on the south wall of the church. One of Rojas’ responsibilities was to gather funds from the churches for the construction of new churches. Therefore, he was well aware of their financial status.

He knew the end of Jesuit occupation of Pimeria Alta was coming to an end, so he waited for the Expulsion of Jesuits in July of 1767. There was only one priest that was treated as prisoner of war, Rojas. He was imprisoned and tortured in Spain. The Spanish believed the Jesuits had cached away millions of pesos in gold and silver and made no hesitation in torturing the priests to divulge its location, such as Sebastian Cava by the Spanish comisarios. No exiled Jesuit priest lived to see the Jesuit Order rebirth in 1814.

The summary above can be verified at the Mexican Jesuit Archives in Mexico.

Rojas had time, position and motive to gather the treasure together and hide out of the reach of the Spanish. He may have been witnessed to the deed. A set of maps were found in the basement of the Arizpe church and were stolen during transport to a secured location. Rojas would have had the time and reason to formulate the Stone Maps and then hide them in his church.

There is a little for Aurum to contemplate for a while. Maybe we can add a little more in the future, if someone wants to.

azmula

[Joe Ribaudo]

Is it possible that Father Rojas is the author of the Stone Maps?

As you are perusing the Jesuit Archives, pay particular attention to the last four years of Father Rojas's time in Mexico and California. Any opportunity for involvement with the Jesuit Treasure and the Superstition Mountains, will come to light in that period. If he was involved, the books have been well cooked indeed. That is highly probable, if you believe he, rather than the Peraltas, created the Stone Maps. It is unlikely that Rojas could have created the maps, without being in the Superstitions and in specific places within that range. Whoever the author was, he was not in the mountains for a short period, but likely spent many weeks if not months or years as a resident. If we decide that Rojas was the "perp", does that give us any insight as to the final location of the Jesuit Treasure? Only if you need verification as to the Stone Maps' authenticity before using them in your own search.
Azmula has done a tremendous amount of research into the good Father.
Kudos are due in profusion.

Joe

[charlie]

Do not mix up the Jesuit Treasure and the LDM. I believe in the existence of both and one is not the same as the other. I am still working on my background knowledge and have to work my beliefs until they are refined to "knows."

If some of the Jesuit Treasure was found at the "missle range", other caches of Jesuit treasure could exist across the range of Jesuit missions.

What would limit the stone maps to the Superstitions?

What characteristic on the map ties it into the Superstitions?

For all we know, the stone maps could lead us up to Utah or Colorado. The only saving grace is how far the Jesuits could travel during these final years in America prior to their expulsion.

[Joe Ribaudo]

"Charlie",

Perhaps the triangle with the slash ties the Stone Maps to the Superstitions. Have you seen anything like that in the mountains?

The Stone Maps could lead us anywhere on the planet and some have proved that to themselves over the years. In doing that, no one has found anything but we all keep trying.

It would be interesting to know if you think the Stone Maps pertain to the Superstitions. That would give us all a better handle on where you were taking us in your last post.

As for how far the Jesuits could have traveled in their last years before expulsion, you might want to check some of your sources to find out how far Father Rojas traveled into California in 1766.

I considered answering your question as to "what would limit the stone maps to the Superstitions?" but feel that would be TMI to give to a man with your background, not to mention the unknown watchers of this forum.

I don't think anyone in this conversation is mixing up the LDM with the Jesuit Treasure. They are, however, closely linked in time and place. Perhaps the answer to that lies in the Jesuit Archives.

"Good Hunting",

Joe

[azmula]

I have not found information that substantiates Father Rojas spending any time in California during the last 4 years prior to expulsion. Especially since he was seen roaming the desert north of Tucson and beyond. Does anyone have prove that Rojas took the boat north to California? Anza did not find a land route until about 1774, did he? Some of the best map makers that the Jesuits had were kept very busy in Tucson and beyond but published maps by the Jesuits show no details of the SM’s, even though there was significant mining in the area by “Spanish” miners that lasted decades.

There are multiple signs and symbols that depict the SM’s on the Stones and limit the location of discovery of the treasure cache and the working church mines. But this has been discussed at length in previous threads here on the forum and else where.

This thread seems to be getting many viewers but not many responses, maybe there are some out there “sand bagging” due to all of the rain. It may be time to focus on research and less on news reports. The desert was beautiful last weekend!

azmula

[Wiz]

Azmula,
I don't think it's sandbagging so much as that there are only a few people with interesting things to say about the maps.

[charlie]

Being a newbee to this forum and to lost mine hunting, I have never seen the stone maps in person. I have seen the pictures of the maps, but have not handled the maps. I have no conclusions on what the stone maps represent, only questions. This spring will be my first trip into Arizona, much less the mountains therein.

I enjoy a puzzle, the environment and fresh air in the wilderness. I was raised on a dairy farm and can shovel shit over my shoulder with a fork and not drop any liquid or solid on me. (An explanation can follow for those who request it.) Therefore, I can sling with the best!

My first trip will be a series of "day-trips" into the mountains. On my second adventur a year later I may try camping with experienced packers.

I still have tons to read and have limited access to special or secret documents explanning more details. I need input.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Azmula,

Sorry for the unintentional misdirection. Baja California would have been the appropriate reference for this forum.

Since you have evidence of Father Rojas roaming the area north of Tucson and beyond, is the size and makeup of his party mentioned? What is the source of these sightings?

The information I have on Father Rojas, shows that he was unable to make his rounds until 1766 even though he was appointed in 1764.

Charlie,
Just how "newbee" are you? Real newbee, kinda newbee or not so newbee? Not that it's really important, because you do have something to say, but I vote for not so newbee. Nice input. Your knowledge is showing.

Joe

[azmula]

Joe,
No party size was discussed, just his presence on several different occasions by a local visitor in the area.

Which appointment was made in 1764? Missionary? Local visitor? Vice provincial? or? Remember he was the last Jesuit to complete his 3 year appointment term as vice provincial before returning to Arizpe in 1766 to await the Jesuit Expulsion in 1767.

I am still researching the details of his movements in the nortern desert area but it is beginning to look more interesting. Circumstantial evidence places him at the scene, with motive, and opportunity that could convict Rojas as the originator of the maps for the obvious purpose.

azmula

[Joe Ribaudo]

Azmula,

Father Carlos Rojas was appointed visitor General in 1764. These "Soldiers of God" were appointed for three years, normally. This was the same term served by California's (Baja) Padre Visitador. Father Rojas's job was to visit the missions, including the most remote, and bring back reports of their hardships and accomplishments. He was sick during the first two years of his appointment. The Vistadores Generals did not make regular or frequent visits so his absence from the missions was not something of note. As I have said before, he did manage to make one trip in 1766. Considering his health problems, it is amazing that he survived the forced march during the expulsion since only half of the Black Robes working in Pimeria Alta lived through it. Many of those who did survive the march and subsequent period of house arrest ended up in Russia and Brazil.

The reason there is no mention of Jesuit led mining in the Superstitions, is because they did none. The Priests kept precise records and they have survived. The Jesuit's needed Indian labor to work the fields and any mines they located. Hostile natives kept them from working many mines in their areas of influence. The mines that were worked in the Superstitions were Peralta not Jesuit. The Jesuit Treasure was placed in the Superstitions by the Peraltas, not the Jesuits. If they had hidden the treasure, it would be in church coffers now. They lost control of the treasure and the maps showing it's location by letting the Peraltas keep the records during their absence.

It is highly unlikely that Father Rojas ever laid eyes on the Superstition Mountains, let alone entered them without a large party of Indians and soldiers. There is not the slightest hint in church records that such an event occurred. That is no guarantee that it did not happen, but the records that do exist make it highly unlikely. In my humble and somewhat uninformed opinion, no one will find a mine or church treasure by researching the activities of Father Carlos Rojas. The history of the Jesuits in the New World, however, is more than worth that effort.

Anyone trying to tie the Jesuits to a treasure or mines in the Superstitions, needs healthy doses of conjecture and rumors, because the hard facts and evidence are nonexistant.

Speaking of conjecture, there is more than a tad in this post.

Joe

[charlie]

Joe,

Life is full of conjecture, guesses and luck. From a "job hunting" book I am reading, Pathfinder by Nicholas Lore, answers are fround from within, without and are created. Someone is going to create the answer that fits.

As a newbee, I read about the LDM during my youth and started over just 1 year ago. I am 54 years old, experienced with observing the not-so-obvious, and have an interest in exploring the Arizona mountain ranges for lost mines. To lost gold mine hunting, I have 12 months of reading and investigation. For puzzle solving and reading between the lines, I have 35 years of engineering. (B.S., M.S., PE if that means anything.) I also have ability to shovel in a crowd while being relaxed.

Friends have said that all the mines have been dug clean of any lode. I am hoping for the few mines that were hidden just before the miners were slaughtered by the Indians. The Peralta mines are just such. I believe that Peralta mines and the LDM are crossed stars.

My friend, Kenneth Horrath from Africa, is interested in the LDM. I am interested in the Jesuit mines near Tubac, but will support him in the LDM venture in 2004. I believe in preparing ahead.

Anyone with Jesuit history on "la Purisima Concepcion", "Esmeralda" and the "Escalante" mines could help me.?! My trip to visit these areas is this fall.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Azmula,

If the markings at Twin Buttes are connected to the Stone Maps, you would need to consider whether Father Rojas had the manpower to create them (or the time) during his rounds in 1766. I have seen no evidence that the Visitor General traveled with a large party, or had the time to dally between missions. The larger the party, the less chance for secrecy.
That might explain the rumors.

Joe

[charlie]

Why would Rojas have to create new markers?

I assume that mining was going on in the area and mines were marked by the trail markers. Locate an old, abandoned mine. Fill it with treasure. Seal the mine and refresh the trail markers.

If the mine were known to have been spent, no one would retrace the path to open the mine. That would limit the number of current residents from digging in the spent mine. After years later, only the trail markers remain.

Why re-invent the wheel? One could even confuse the path by crossing trail markers and making one marker to switch trails. One needs only be devious to out smart the public.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Charlie,

Father Rojas did not make the markings at Twin Buttes. They are trail markers that were meant to last for a long time. The idea of hiding the treasure in an area that was close to the missions was surely considered and thought to be too risky. It is unlikely any Jesuits made the trip to the hiding places, for obvious reasons. They were given instruction on how to locate the treasure when they returned to the New World at some future date. The markings at Twin Buttes could not be missed, but would be misunderstood by those who did not have the rest of the instructions. That's why there was a prospect hole in the center of the heart. If you didn't have the original maps or the later Stone Maps you would not have a clue.

Since we all know the Stone Map Trail is Whiskey Spring Canyon, what's the big mystery? This was all figured out years ago by some pretty savvy treasure hunters. They have managed to keep the finding of the gold ingots secret for a lot of years.

Are you being "devious" as a newbee with more knowledge than some old timers? Fooling the public is not something for amateurs. Those who think it is easy, often end up in prison.

Joe

[azmula]

DELETED

[charlie]

Azmula,

Sorry if I cross paths. Only brainstorming to keep the mind agile.

It would be nice to fins the Jesuit treasure, Montezuma"s treasure, or an Incan cache. If I live long enough and succeed on my early quests, I might look at the Twin Buttes.

Too many easier trails to follow first.

However, I will continue monitoring and commenting. For what it is worth.