LOST OR.....FOUND?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

"I’m never quite sure what Joe really believes"

A or would have taken the bite out of that comment. I will delude myself with the notion that you just forgot.

I am not sure what book that map came out of. It's not my picture, so it's possible I don't even have the book. I will be able to find out and when I do, I will let you know.

The original story, as far as I know, came from Mitchell's "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest", which came out in 1933. By the time Mitchell wrote "Lost Mines & Buried Treasures" in 1953, the story grew a bit.

The area in his story is explicit and the map, whoever drew it, is an accurate reflection of the story. If you like, I will copy both stories and post them here. I may have done that already.

To understand why many people believe the mine is the LDM, including those who cleaned it out, you need a lot more background than I am willing to provide here.

Most of the information was given to me. It is not the results of any research done by me. I have, on my own, uncovered facts which only bolster that conclusion. Those facts have to do with the decade in which the pit mine was found by those who eventually worked it, and other stories which, while well known, are not associated with this mine.

Many of those facts will never see the light of day, at least not by me. Sorry to leave you hanging, but no one really believes it's the LDM anyway, so......no harm......no foul.

You may take this to the bank: I believe this mine is the LDM. I also believe I have seen the ore that came out of it.

Take care,

Joe

[novice]

Joe,

You’re self admission that you sometimes throw things out there to facilitate discussion was what drew my comment about not being sure what you believe.

It’s probably not necessary to copy the Mitchell articles in full but I would like to have some guidance on how we get from the Mitchell story to the Carpenter map location. Perhaps you can share those passages that you feel point to the area on the map of “Where Waltz’s Carpenter Searched”.

As I read my book, which is a reprint of the 1933, the only recognizable landmark for me is Whitlow’s ranch and there is no indication that the mine is located nearby. Also the map seems to imply that the Carpenter searched for the mine but Mitchell doesn’t indicate that in 1933?

Any clarification will be appreciated,

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

This is what I posted from Mithcells 1953 book:


Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:27 am Post subject: Changing Stories

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Glover and S.C.,

I have always considered Mitchell a good read, but have never taken him seriously concerning the LDM.

By 1953, Mitchell's story had become:

"A month later Jacob Walz reappeared in Florence looking for someone to make a dry washer or rocker small enough to be packed on the back of a burro. He was directed to another German known only as Frank, who was making his living doing odd jobs of carpenter work around Florence. While the placer machine was being completed Walz told the carpenter he had found some very rich placer gravel near Iron mountain on a branch of Pinto creek and that he was prospecting upstream to find the vein from which the gold came."

He than said:

"Old Frank, who later lived in the Pioneers' Home in Prescott, said the location of the much hunted mine did not seem to be much of a secret in those days and that many old timers like himself knew that it was located somewhere on Pinto creek not far from Iron mountain."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Your book does not contain nearly the information that the 1953 edition grew to........on this subject.

Take care,

Joe

[novice]

That certainly explains the introduction of the map and the carpenter story. I am still interested in the source of the map.

I have never seen the 1953 Mitchell book. Was it common for Mitchell to build on the stories from 1933 or is the Lost Dutchman story unique in that regard?

Another item that has apparently been raised is the possibility that the pit mine is the Silver Chief. What is the background for this argument and has the Silver Chief been located with certainty?

Thanks,

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

I have never really compared Mitchell's stories between books, other than the carpenter story.

As for how the pit mine came to be called the Silver Chief, I can only tell you that some very knowledgeable people have visited the pit and believed it was the Silver Chief. I can assure you that the people who worked the mine fostered that idea.

I have a reliable source that visited the pit mine back in the mid-eighties, and tells me the finders knew then what they had. I don't believe there was ever any question that it was not the Silver Chief.

Thanks to Greg Davis, who has also made that claim, I have the location notice for the Silver Chief. While the precise locations were a bit of a crap shoot in those days......thus claim markers, the Silver Chief has been visited and is around two+ miles from the pit mine. As they were using a very well know location to reference, (Rodgers' Spring) it seems unlikely they could have been two miles off base.

I doubt you can find a Dutch Hunter alive, who wants to call this location the LDM. That would go double for people who have a vested interest in keeping the mystery alive.

All of the above is just my opinion, based on the history of the LDM, the evidence on the ground and a few documents, which are of public record . That means I could be wrong.

If I receive the permission of a source (for the public records), I will add to this evidence.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Someone who has been mentioned on this Forum in the past, but not given much play, is John Reed. Not much mention, if any, in any of the better LDM books.

For more information on Reed, I would suggest you enter his name in the search tab here.

If you assume that Reed's story, as told in the Clay Worst article and the letters is true, (for the most part) then there are some big clues in the contents.

One of the things mentioned, that might have slipped by was: "We never were south or west of the needle." Further on was this:

[Here, Weaver's Needle presented itself in an unobstructed view to the south. Here, Reed again became sure of himself. "I don't ever think I was here," he said. "We must have come too far."]

Those two passages, if true, make it unlikely that the LDM is north, south or west of Weaver's Needle.

If we are using this information to "test" the pit mine to the east, there is more. On page 28, Reed is quoted as saying: [The first thing you've got to know, "Reed advised, "is the nature of the ore. It isn't a placer mine at all..............There are two kinds of rock in the mine. One was a very hard, white rock. You had to be careful of your eyes, because it threw sharp chips when you hit it. Fresh broken pieces glistened in the sunlight, but when it layed out in the weather, it turned dull............On the side there was a very soft greyish brown rock. It had been scraped from the wall, but still showed in places."]

The following picture shows samples of the rock that makes up the waste dump from the pit mine:



Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Anyone else think the following picture contains any "sharp chips" that "glistened"?

The picture, of course, is from the inside of the pit mine.



There is much more to the John Reed story, but I will wait to see if anyone else has something to add.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

Anyone else think the following picture contains any "sharp chips" that "glistened"?

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,
You can find stuff like that anywhere, so that isn't helping

[pippinwhitepaws]

Anyone else think the following picture contains any "sharp chips" that "glistened"?

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,
You can find stuff like that anywhere, so that isn't helping

there is a pile of that rock, about a saddlebag full...at the old rock foundation on williow creek and first water trail...
lol...for those of you who don't believe a word..go to first water road...pull over at the first spot on the left...look at the base of westernmost concrete parking block...lolol...yes..there was once a house on that corner...and there is a pile of grey chips...sparkle in the sun...lolol watch out..they are sharp.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

There will be no smoking gun in this debate. There will, however, be a series of circumstantial facts. None of them, standing alone, will prove anything.

There are a good many Dutch Hunters who believe in the John Reed story.
Here is a short list of some last names of those believers:

Ruth, Ely, Bark, Barkley, Worst, Aylor, Ribaudo and Provence. Many others believe the story, which is why you don't see much written about it.

"You can find stuff like that anywhere, so that isn't helping".

How about you and pip put your heads together and show me where there's a pit mine......like this one, in the Superstitions, with all the other landmarks and stories all over it. Perhaps over at "willow creek and first water trail".

You may be right that it "isn't helping", but I would counter that it isn't hurting the debate either.

pip,

"there is a pile of that rock, about a saddlebag full...at the old rock foundation on willow creek and first water trail...
lol...for those of you who don't believe a word..go to first water road...pull over at the first spot on the left...look at the base of westernmost concrete parking block...lolol...yes..there was once a house on that corner...and there is a pile of grey chips...sparkle in the sun...lolol watch out..they are sharp."

I suppose some people would consider "about a saddlebag full" indicative that a pit mine was just up the hill.....somewhere.

Had you read the statement, you would know that the rock mentioned would be dull white after exposure to the elements.....much like the rock in my picture. It came from the waste dump.

Tell me again, what are the reasons this just can't be the LDM? Is there anything since Waltz's death, that comes closer?

Take care,

Joe

[pippinwhitepaws]

sorry, you posted photos of copper ore..i posted a piece about grey/white shiney, sharp, chips of rock. i don't imply anything, i state provable fact...i used saddle bag as a reference, as in about enough rock placed in a bag and dumped on the ground.

[djui5]

There are a good many Dutch Hunters who believe in the John Reed story.
Here is a short list of some last names of those believers:

Joe

Damn Joe, I wasn't talking about the Reed story, I was talking about the "metallic shiny rock". I also fail to see how the Reed story fits this mine. All we know from what you've printed is that Reed said he wasn't South or West of the Needle. So he could have been anywhere NE of the needle, or East. Wow, that's a lot of area to cover.

Just trying to think rationally here Joe. People like to jump to conclusions sometimes

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

I am offering up information that MAY fit this location. To be fair, some of it will also fit OTHER locations. I would assume most folks would, at least, consider each piece of circumstantial evidence and judge it, along with, everything else........to get the whole picture.

If you can take everything that fits the pit mine location and match it up somewhere else, let's see it.

No one, other than the folks who found and worked this location is claiming it is the LDM. I was hoping to to see some good reasons why it couldn't be the LDM.

I did not eliminate any direction from Weaver's Needle. What I said was "unlikely". I respect your opinion, but I would like to see why you are so quick to dismiss this location. I am not basing my opinion on just what has been presented here.......so far. I am presenting facts, backed up by pictures to support my opinion.

Everyone says....."where's the Dutchman ore"? That's the only real proof. Randy, you told me where that ore is at the last Rendezvous.
I knew where if was going to turn up....a few years ago. No real surprise there. I will not be saying anything further about that, and hope you will also leave it there.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Pip,

"sorry, you posted photos of copper ore".

Since I know nothing about rocks, you may be correct. On the other hand, I believe the pictures I posted from the waste dump are silver sulfides. The samples are on my bookshelf, so I could ask any of the friends I have here who do know something about rocks.

I used your exact words about your pile of rocks, so any misunderstanding about what was meant came from you.

Many people have a habit of reading their own meanings into what I write. It may be, since it happens so often, that I am at fault. Knowing that some folks are going to pick apart each and every word I write, I do try to be careful. That's the best I can do.

If my photos don't match up to what Reed wrote, I am open to reading why.

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

Randy,
I was hoping to to see some good reasons why it couldn't be the LDM.

Well I have offered a few in this thread somewhere.

I respect your opinion, but I would like to see why you are so quick to dismiss this location.
Take care,

Joe

Joe,
I'm not quick to dismiss anything. I've been to the site twice. I walked from a road, through the trail, through the bushes, climbed over trees literally to visit this site. I was blessed that someone was kind enough to take me there. I have seen the place first hand Joe. I've seen the "dog ear", I've seen the cave across from the pit. I've seen the 2 pits and the tunnel. I've seen the quartz lying all over the place. I've seen the "gun sight" with my OWN EYES. I've seen the tintype, held it in my hands. I've seen it's history, and the history of people who've passed it down. I've seen the picture of the "bible cache", and it's location. I've talked to people who were there. I've also added in a couple of my own reasons why I don't think it fits. I'll say it again, it's too easy to get to from the board house. Way too easy. Rhiney and Julia didn't go East from the board house because they were never told to. That tells me the mine probably isn't straight East of the board house. Simple enough right?

I have many many reasons for believing this isn't the LDM. I've been to the site, and seen it in person, not just photographs. Until I am convinced otherwise, I will stand by my beliefs.

I will agree with one thing though, this is a great candidate for being the LDM. Now don't go twisting my words here, I said it's a great CANDIDATE. By that I mean a lot of stuff can be construed as being similar to clues left to the location of the mine. One has to ask themselves though, where did those clues come from?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"I'll say it again, it's too easy to get to from the board house. Way too easy."

Remind me again.......Did Waltz say the mine was hard to get to, or hard to find? Without being shown where to go from the board house, I imagine you are right..........it would be a cakewalk to find that mine.

"I've been to the site twice. I walked from a road, through the trail, through the bushes, climbed over trees literally to visit this site. I was blessed that someone was kind enough to take me there."

Funny, you don't make it sound all that "easy". Probably a little tougher for a woman and a young drinker without a guide. Reckon there was a road to walk, part way, back then?

Glad you have been to the site "in person". How did you get lined up with your guide?

"I will agree with one thing though, this is a great candidate for being the LDM. Now don't go twisting my words here, I said it's a great CANDIDATE. By that I mean a lot of stuff can be construed as being similar to clues left to the location of the mine. One has to ask themselves though, where did those clues come from?"

I suppose I deserve that slight. The meaning of words is something I am pretty good at, so when folks say or write something, I usually have a pretty good idea of what they mean. Like to think I don't twist other peoples words, but few of us recognize our faults......like our friends do.

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

Remind me again.......Did Waltz say the mine was hard to get to, or hard to find?

Joe,
When I said the mine was easy to get to I meant the AREA the mine is in is easy to get to. Finding that mine when it was covered up, with no trail leading to it must have been hell, literally. I am amazed that it was uncovered at all considering where it is. What is easy to get to is the AREA the mine is in. From the board house it's straight East. Waltz would have told Rhiney and Julia to go East from the board house, but he never did. That tells me the mine isn't straight East from the board house. Makes sense right? Once Waltz knew he wasn't going to be able to take Julia and Rhiney to the board house all he had to say was "Go East from the board house, over the saddle between the big mountains and follow the canyon until it empties into an open basin. The mine is on the other side of the mountain right in front of you."
What is so hard to understand how easy that is to explain? Julia and Rhiney went North from the board house. Why? You have to ask yourself what they knew that sent them North, not EAST.

I suppose I deserve that slight.
Take care,

Joe

That wasn't directed towards you personally, but in general. Don't take everything so personal Joe.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

I believe I just told you that I understand the meanings of the written and spoken word very well.

The following was a comment posted to "Joe".

"I will agree with one thing though, this is a great candidate for being the LDM. Now don't go twisting my words here, I said it's a great CANDIDATE. By that I mean a lot of stuff can be construed as being similar to clues left to the location of the mine. One has to ask themselves though, where did those clues come from?"

If you wanted to address that comment to everyone "in general", you might have written......Now don't everyone go twisting my words here.

I assume I have now "twisted" your words. My apologies.

Now back to the important parts of your comments.

"That tells me the mine probably isn't straight East of the board house. Simple enough right?"

Are you saying that the pit mine is "straight East of the board house"?
Are you using the Quarter Circle U as the "board house"?
As you have been to the mine twice, are you sure it's "straight East" from the board house?

I don't have your contacts or experience in those mountains, so I will accept your directions on how to get to the mine. Had you been there to tell Julia exactly what you have just written here, do you believe they would have found the mine?

"I was blessed that someone was kind enough to take me there."

Interesting comment for someone who has written that the location is "too easy to get to from the board house. Way too easy." Why did you need to be blessed? Go to the board house, turn east.....bottle of water and a bag of peanuts, and you're there.

"Finding that mine when it was covered up, with no trail leading to it must have been hell, literally. I am amazed that it was uncovered at all considering where it is."

The people who found the mine did not just stumble through the brush and fall on it. They found it by design and by following someone's instructions.

Of course, after all that, it's still just a copper mine......right?

Did you get a chance to hike in with Paul? Damn nice guy.

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

Randy,

Joe...

"That tells me the mine probably isn't straight East of the board house. Simple enough right?"

Are you saying that the pit mine is "straight East of the board house"?
Are you using the Quarter Circle U as the "board house"?
As you have been to the mine twice, are you sure it's "straight East" from the board house?

I always understood the QCU was the "board house". Are you going to tell me something different? I know there was more than one board house in those mountains during that time, but I always thought the QCU was THE "board house".

If you wanna get really picky, it's actually NE. That's not the point, the point is that you can tell someone to head East (or NE if you wish) from the QCU and they can wind up right near the mine area.

I don't have your contacts or experience in those mountains, so I will accept your directions on how to get to the mine. Had you been there to tell Julia exactly what you have just written here, do you believe they would have found the mine?

Maybe not exactly, but I have no doubt I could have easily got them to the ridge above the mine. Easily.

"I was blessed that someone was kind enough to take me there."

Interesting comment for someone who has written that the location is "too easy to get to from the board house. Way too easy." Why did you need to be blessed? Go to the board house, turn east.....bottle of water and a bag of peanuts, and you're there.

Ok, Joe, you're being difficult now. Just because the place is easy to get to doesn't mean you'd know where it was if someone didn't show you. I say blessed because I didn't have to hunt for this mine. I was taken there by a friend. We drove right up to the trail and hiked the well clipped trail right to the top of the ridge above the mine. Had someone not taken me there, or shown me where the mine was on a map...ah forget it.

The people who found the mine did not just stumble through the brush and fall on it. They found it by design and by following someone's instructions.

No they found it...well forget it.

Of course, after all that, it's still just a copper mine......right?

Is it?

Did you get a chance to hike in with Paul? Damn nice guy.
Joe

Nope. I had dinner with Paul, but work changed my schedule at the last min so I had to cancel our hike. Wish I could have made it. I tried to stop by his camp earlier today but he wasn't there.

Joe,
I've said my piece on this mine. I've said what I feel. I've been there. I know the history. I'm done trying to explain to you why I feel the way I do. I've said it over and over. Until I see more evidence to persuade me otherwise I will continue to believe that this isn't the LDM. I also believe I know things you don't about this place. Things that if you knew, you also might feel differently. Things I'm not obliged to share. I think you can understand.

[pippinwhitepaws]

if i understand your direction dj, that area is criss crossed with both historic and prehistoric trails...
reevis's grave is almost on top of your directions...reevis trail is right there...tortilla ranch trail, woodbury cabin, hewitt canyon, millsite canyon...rogers canyon....i ramble...

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

It's amazing how work gets in the way of our hobbies.

Thanks for your replies. I understand there are things none of us can make public. It's the nature of the beast.

I assume you're now saying that Waltz could not just say... go to the board house, turn east and find the mine. I believe he said he would point out the way from there.

Do you know if there was another house in the same general area that might have been considered a board house?

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

Randy,

It's amazing how work gets in the way of our hobbies.

Tell me about it

I assume you're now saying that Waltz could not just say... go to the board house, turn east and find the mine. I believe he said he would point out the way from there.

NO, Waltz said specifically, from what I understand, "I'll show you the trail to the mine when we go to the board house". Right? Isn't that what he said?
My point about this mine is when he was dying, why didn't he just tell Rhiney to go East from the board house (or NE, whatever)? He didn't. That's my problem. Did I miss something here? The LDM mine site has to be somewhere that is hard to explain how to get to. That's why no-one can find it, because Waltz had a hard time explaining how to get there. If I wanted to I could send someone to the mine area in question with just a simple direction, using only a couple of easily identifiable markers. One being the board house (assuming it's the QCU). MY POINT IS THAT IT IS TOO EASY TO GET TO THE MINE AREA FROM THE QCU. Does that make sense? It's like saying the mine is at Massacre Grounds. Yeah right.

Do you know if there was another house in the same general area that might have been considered a board house?

Take care,

Joe

No, do you? I know of one NW of the QCU, and far N, but not East of the QCU. I always understood the board house to be the QCU, but could possibly have been another house to the NW. I think this has been debated before?

I can't explain this any clearer. This is just frustrating me Joe. If you don't understand, then so be it. I can't repeat this again. I think I've said the same thing 15 times in a single thread.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

No need for frustration. We are simply giving our opinions and asking questions to explore the possibilities. If that has become burdensome
for you, by all means simply drop out of the conversation. Your having secret, inside information that would convince me that this is not the LDM is good enough for me. I will accept your conclusion.......as fact.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[Cubfan64]

not that it would be easy for Waltz to have given directions TO the mine, but that it WOULD have been easy for him to give directions to get into the right general area - as long as one assumes the QCU was the board house he was referring to. I think this is one of if not THE most telling argument against this location indeed being Waltz's mine.

Although I don't know specifically where the location of the photos was taken, I have a feeling I was in the right general location at one point of my hikes last week. If I'm not mistaken, there are a good number of claims up in that vicinity - that bothers me when I consider Waltz's claim that no miner would find it - that's a pretty strong statement to make when there were active claims in the area.

On the other hand, there continues to be the strong argument that someone(s) risked a great deal to dig out whatever it was they found there. One wouldn't go to that kind of trouble and effort for a copper deposit.

I think this discussion will continue to get bogged down at this point - the proponents of each side have what they believe to be convincing evidence of their claim - that evidence is just something that neither side is willing or able to share (at least at this time). Even with full sharing of facts, the two sides may not come together, but it's definitely true that without the rest of the facts, they never will.

It makes for a pretty difficult continuation of the discussion because it tends to just rehash old comments that lead to the same conclusions over and over.

I think we're at a point where either new facts need to come out, or we've reached the end of this particular path.

Just my $0.02

[Joe Ribaudo]

Paul,

Glad you have returned safely. Your week in the Superstitions sound like no grass was allowed to grow under your feet.

Since Waltz's death many, many people believed they were "in the area" of the mine. In truth, some spent years and thousands of dollars trying to find the illusive pit. That effort continues to this day, with nothing being uncovered, that I have heard of, that even comes close to what was found below that ridge.

It's amazing how many people had all the evidence they needed to convince themselves that they had finally found the correct location, and still did everything in their power to get someone else's information. The period just after Adolph Ruth's death is a prime example of those frantic efforts.

Some of, what most people would consider, the best Dutch Hunter's around knew "the area" back in the early thirties. They have all ended up with....."what the little boy shot at". At that time they were trying to bring in new partners who had their own "evidence" to supply. Those efforts continue to this day with fresh legs and minds to help in the search.

Just to make it clear, they knew "the area" around 80 years ago, or more. Do any of them have the pit mine.........uncovered? Any pictures of something that looks like what Waltz is said to have described? As you have seen, many of the "clues" and landmarks can be found in a number of places in the Superstitions. For that matter, they can be found many places outside the Superstitions.

Sounds like you were in the mountains at the perfect time. You just missed being in there at the same time as Matthew Roberts. That would have been an interesting campfire to sit at.

Welcome back,

Joe