The University of Arizona Southwest Electronic Text Center has been digitizing a number of books related to the history and geology of Arizona. Their site is located at:
http://dizzy.library.arizona.edu/swetc/projects.html
There has been a good discussion on the Forum about the Spanish missionaries and missions in Arizona. One book in the digitized collection on this subject is "History of Arizona - Volume 1" by Thomas Edwin Farish (1915) which has been referenced. The book is at this site:
http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/hav1/index.html
For those of us that can't easily get to Arizona, happy reading!!
Roger
University of Arizona Digitized Library
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Joe Ribaudo
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Books?
Roger,
I am surprised at you, offering up a book to be used as a source of information. Surely there must be a more reliable source for information on the subject.
I don't have a full set of the Farish books, but I do have Vol. 1 & 2. Great reading, if that's your thing.
A lot of the things we have been discussing here, have been hashed-over before. Anyone interested in the subject should go back and read, "Spanish Treasure Symbols".
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I am surprised at you, offering up a book to be used as a source of information. Surely there must be a more reliable source for information on the subject.
I don't have a full set of the Farish books, but I do have Vol. 1 & 2. Great reading, if that's your thing.
A lot of the things we have been discussing here, have been hashed-over before. Anyone interested in the subject should go back and read, "Spanish Treasure Symbols".
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Thomas Farish Books
Joe, if you're interested, you can buy the entire 8 volume set of Thomas Farish's work for $275 at the below web site. The set apppearss from the description to be in decent condition. This is the cheapest I have seen the full 8 sets priced.
Roger
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDet ... =602407659
Roger
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDet ... =602407659
Thomas Farish Books
Joe, my error above. The sale only includes volumes 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7 - not the full 8 volumes. Have to watch that detail!
Roger
Roger
Farish Books - All 8 Volumes
Of course, if one wanted to save the $275 purchase price for 5 of Thomas Farish's 8 volume set, one could go to the same website and read all 8 as they are digitized and available on line.
http://dizzy.library.arizona.edu/swetc/projects.html
One needs to be frugal somewhere in this holiday season!!
Roger
http://dizzy.library.arizona.edu/swetc/projects.html
One needs to be frugal somewhere in this holiday season!!
Roger
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Joe Ribaudo
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Frugal
Roger,
That's an excellent site, but there is no place in "frugal" that extends to old books. There is nothing like holding a piece of history, heavy with the scent of years, in your hands.
The only consideration is: "Whatever you can afford".....well, usually.
Respectfully,
Joe
That's an excellent site, but there is no place in "frugal" that extends to old books. There is nothing like holding a piece of history, heavy with the scent of years, in your hands.
The only consideration is: "Whatever you can afford".....well, usually.
Respectfully,
Joe
Rudo Ensayo
The U of A digital library also contains "Rudo Ensayo" by Juan Nentvig. This text is a description of Sonora and Arizona in 1764. The text covers several of the old missions and rancheria's that have been talked about on the Forum. There is a map included, but it is difficult to read in the scanned copy - hard enough to read from the hard copy I have.
Some more reading to go with your reading of Farish's 8 volumes! Look at all the money you've saved at this one site!
Roger
http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/rudo/
Some more reading to go with your reading of Farish's 8 volumes! Look at all the money you've saved at this one site!
Roger
http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/rudo/
Great find Roger!
Did you happen to notice how many times the year 1751 appears in the text? Seems to have been a very important date in Jesuit history! Is it just by coincendence that the year 1751 also appears on one of the stone crosses that Mike Bilbrey found? Hmmm. Sure makes you wonder doesn't it?
Did you happen to notice how many times the year 1751 appears in the text? Seems to have been a very important date in Jesuit history! Is it just by coincendence that the year 1751 also appears on one of the stone crosses that Mike Bilbrey found? Hmmm. Sure makes you wonder doesn't it?
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Joe Ribaudo
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1751
Jan,
1751 was a very important year for the Jesuits, but I don't believe it is mentioned in excess, as compared to any other year, in Nentvig's work.
The important event for that year was the Pima uprising. Father Nentvig bairly escaped Saric with his life, so he may have found it of some importance. He had been here less than a year at the time of the uprising.
Have the "Bilbrey Crosses" ever been submited for scientific examination?
If not, do you know why?
While interesting reading, I don't see any "treasure" connection in "Rudo Ensayo". Want to give us a hint?
If I wanted to make some kind of connection with the Stone Maps, or the Bilbrey Crosses, I suppose it would be interesting that the ship Father Nentvig arrived in was called "The Heart of Jesus".
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
1751 was a very important year for the Jesuits, but I don't believe it is mentioned in excess, as compared to any other year, in Nentvig's work.
The important event for that year was the Pima uprising. Father Nentvig bairly escaped Saric with his life, so he may have found it of some importance. He had been here less than a year at the time of the uprising.
Have the "Bilbrey Crosses" ever been submited for scientific examination?
If not, do you know why?
While interesting reading, I don't see any "treasure" connection in "Rudo Ensayo". Want to give us a hint?
If I wanted to make some kind of connection with the Stone Maps, or the Bilbrey Crosses, I suppose it would be interesting that the ship Father Nentvig arrived in was called "The Heart of Jesus".Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Joe,
You are asking the wrong person. I am rather new to the Bilbrey crosses compared to some of the members on this site. I've just been keeping an ear to the ground for historical events in 1751 because that year appears on one of the crosses. An Indian uprising could explain how them came to be lost. Just keeping an open mind.
Roger has made some interesting posts concerning the crosses, maybe he knows if they have ever been scientifically evaluated.
jan
You are asking the wrong person. I am rather new to the Bilbrey crosses compared to some of the members on this site. I've just been keeping an ear to the ground for historical events in 1751 because that year appears on one of the crosses. An Indian uprising could explain how them came to be lost. Just keeping an open mind.
Roger has made some interesting posts concerning the crosses, maybe he knows if they have ever been scientifically evaluated.
jan
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Joe Ribaudo
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Rebellion
Jan,
The Pima uprising was a momentous event in Jesuit history. Having the 1751 date on the cross does not seem that strange. Perhaps the crosses are more of a historical record, rather than some kind of treasure map.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
The Pima uprising was a momentous event in Jesuit history. Having the 1751 date on the cross does not seem that strange. Perhaps the crosses are more of a historical record, rather than some kind of treasure map.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Re: Rebellion
Joe,Joe Ribaudo wrote:Jan,
Perhaps the crosses are more of a historical record, rather than some kind of treasure map.
Joe Ribaudo
I suppose one could come to that conclusion if they had never translated the words on the crosses.
Jan
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Joe Ribaudo
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Familiarity
Jan,
It would seem you are much more familiar with the stone crosses than some. I thought you had posted some pictures and made a few comments that you deleated.
Perhaps it was only the heart.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
It would seem you are much more familiar with the stone crosses than some. I thought you had posted some pictures and made a few comments that you deleated.
Perhaps it was only the heart.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Bilbrey Stone Crosses
I can't say I'm much of an expert on the Stone Crosses, but will offer what I know on them in summary form:
1. I had a discussion in the early 1990's with a somewhat grizzled individual that worked at Goldfield for Bob Schoose who said that the Stone Crosses were found at the head of Cottonwood Seep on the SW side of Tortilla Mountain.
2. With my interest piqued some, I got the SMHS Museum in Goldfield to take down the photographs of the Stone Crosses that were mounted on the wall so that I could make tracings of them using clear transparency sheets and foil marker pens. I couldn't find much published info on them at that time.
3. I had made contact with Greg Davis thru the SMHS which I was a member of for a year or two and found out about his maintaining the SMHS collections as well as his personal collection on the LDM and AZ history. I visited his home on several occasions taking a small portable copy machine with me. I would dig thru the collections and make copies of anything of interest - maps, journals, topo's w/photographs, etc. Greg did have some items that he did not want me to copy and some that he let me copy on the condition that I didn't distribute it any further. I have honored that to this day.
4. Greg has in his collection an audio tape of an interview he did with Mike Bilbrey in July, 1978, about his adventures in the Supers. Mike tells of his pursuing the LDM using the Peralta Stone Maps and winding up on Tortilla Mountain from his reading of them. Pursuing the markings and clues he found there led to him finding the Stone Crosses on the SW side of Tortilla (not above Cottonwood Seep!) and his adventures trying to dechiper them. He filed mining claims on the SW side of Tortilla plus a number of them on the NW corner of Tortilla. Greg had copies of the mining claims and topo's showing their locations which I made copies of. I played around with the Stone Crosses a little while more and then moved on to other areas of LDM interest.
5. I became aquainted with Jim Hatt and we made a hike into the Supers together and met once in Apache Junction to go over LDM stuff in July, 1999. I gave him a copy of my tracings of the Stone Crosses plus some other materials. I also forwarded him a copy of the Bilbrey tapes with Greg Davis's premission and that may be where he tied the Stone Crosses in with the Peralta Stone Maps. Guess this got him started on the stone map adventures that led to his book on them.
I'm not aware of anyone doing any authenticity analysis on the Stone Crosses - just what Bilbrey had to tell of them and his attempt to follow them to a mine - and there is clearly a Spanish mine symbol on them.
Now you know what I know.
Roger
1. I had a discussion in the early 1990's with a somewhat grizzled individual that worked at Goldfield for Bob Schoose who said that the Stone Crosses were found at the head of Cottonwood Seep on the SW side of Tortilla Mountain.
2. With my interest piqued some, I got the SMHS Museum in Goldfield to take down the photographs of the Stone Crosses that were mounted on the wall so that I could make tracings of them using clear transparency sheets and foil marker pens. I couldn't find much published info on them at that time.
3. I had made contact with Greg Davis thru the SMHS which I was a member of for a year or two and found out about his maintaining the SMHS collections as well as his personal collection on the LDM and AZ history. I visited his home on several occasions taking a small portable copy machine with me. I would dig thru the collections and make copies of anything of interest - maps, journals, topo's w/photographs, etc. Greg did have some items that he did not want me to copy and some that he let me copy on the condition that I didn't distribute it any further. I have honored that to this day.
4. Greg has in his collection an audio tape of an interview he did with Mike Bilbrey in July, 1978, about his adventures in the Supers. Mike tells of his pursuing the LDM using the Peralta Stone Maps and winding up on Tortilla Mountain from his reading of them. Pursuing the markings and clues he found there led to him finding the Stone Crosses on the SW side of Tortilla (not above Cottonwood Seep!) and his adventures trying to dechiper them. He filed mining claims on the SW side of Tortilla plus a number of them on the NW corner of Tortilla. Greg had copies of the mining claims and topo's showing their locations which I made copies of. I played around with the Stone Crosses a little while more and then moved on to other areas of LDM interest.
5. I became aquainted with Jim Hatt and we made a hike into the Supers together and met once in Apache Junction to go over LDM stuff in July, 1999. I gave him a copy of my tracings of the Stone Crosses plus some other materials. I also forwarded him a copy of the Bilbrey tapes with Greg Davis's premission and that may be where he tied the Stone Crosses in with the Peralta Stone Maps. Guess this got him started on the stone map adventures that led to his book on them.
I'm not aware of anyone doing any authenticity analysis on the Stone Crosses - just what Bilbrey had to tell of them and his attempt to follow them to a mine - and there is clearly a Spanish mine symbol on them.
Now you know what I know.
Roger
Thanks Roger,
That’s quite a detailed summary and it is appreciated!
I can add a little. It falls right in with a 4 page email I got from Jim Hatt about 6 months ago. In the email he states that he first got interested in the stone maps in 1991 or 92 when he attended a presentation on them given by Richard Robinson at a Superstition Mountain Museum Board or Directors meeting. After the presentation he ordered a full size set of the stone map reproductions from Mr. Robinson which he used in later years to make latex molds and second generation reproductions of the stone maps, when number of people expressed the desire to own a set of them and Mr. Robinson was no longer selling them because his molds had worn out and he could not get access to the original stones to make more. In the email Jim says that he thought it was in the 1993-94 time frame when he obtained a copy of the Bilbrey tape (originally made by Greg Davis) and stone cross tracings from Roger Newkirk (You I assume) and began to consider the possibility that they were fabricated by the same group of people that made the stone maps. He also mentions the mining claims that Mike Bilbrey had on the S/W corner of Tortilla Mountain which he later verified at the BLM office but could never find any documented record of Mr. Bilbrey having any claims on any other part of Tortilla mountain. I followed up at the BLM office myself and could not locate any other Bilbrey claims on Tortilla mountain either.
According to Jim’s email Estee Conatser author of The Sterling Legend who Jim became friends with after she retired and moved to Apache Junction, had the stone crosses in her possession for a while when she was still living in California and had them analyzed somewhere (location not stated so there is no way to tell how scientific the evaluation was) and that she never became comfortable with the idea that they were authentic artifacts from the Jesuit or Peralta era, although she was never able to prove they weren‘t either. According to Jim, the stone crosses were clearly NOT made from the same type of stone (tan/brown colored sandstone) that the stone map slabs were made of BUT… The heart insert in the stone maps was not made from the same type of stone that the slabs were made of either. However, the original heart insert, the Latin heart insert AND the stone crosses all seem to have been made from the same type of reddish smooth stone (not sandstone).
And now you know what I know.
Jan
That’s quite a detailed summary and it is appreciated!
I can add a little. It falls right in with a 4 page email I got from Jim Hatt about 6 months ago. In the email he states that he first got interested in the stone maps in 1991 or 92 when he attended a presentation on them given by Richard Robinson at a Superstition Mountain Museum Board or Directors meeting. After the presentation he ordered a full size set of the stone map reproductions from Mr. Robinson which he used in later years to make latex molds and second generation reproductions of the stone maps, when number of people expressed the desire to own a set of them and Mr. Robinson was no longer selling them because his molds had worn out and he could not get access to the original stones to make more. In the email Jim says that he thought it was in the 1993-94 time frame when he obtained a copy of the Bilbrey tape (originally made by Greg Davis) and stone cross tracings from Roger Newkirk (You I assume) and began to consider the possibility that they were fabricated by the same group of people that made the stone maps. He also mentions the mining claims that Mike Bilbrey had on the S/W corner of Tortilla Mountain which he later verified at the BLM office but could never find any documented record of Mr. Bilbrey having any claims on any other part of Tortilla mountain. I followed up at the BLM office myself and could not locate any other Bilbrey claims on Tortilla mountain either.
According to Jim’s email Estee Conatser author of The Sterling Legend who Jim became friends with after she retired and moved to Apache Junction, had the stone crosses in her possession for a while when she was still living in California and had them analyzed somewhere (location not stated so there is no way to tell how scientific the evaluation was) and that she never became comfortable with the idea that they were authentic artifacts from the Jesuit or Peralta era, although she was never able to prove they weren‘t either. According to Jim, the stone crosses were clearly NOT made from the same type of stone (tan/brown colored sandstone) that the stone map slabs were made of BUT… The heart insert in the stone maps was not made from the same type of stone that the slabs were made of either. However, the original heart insert, the Latin heart insert AND the stone crosses all seem to have been made from the same type of reddish smooth stone (not sandstone).
And now you know what I know.
Jan
Scientific evaluation of the stone maps
While on the subject of scientific evaluations, I am still trying to find the post that discussed the FBI evaluation of the stone maps that was supposed to have been done when Bob Corbin was interested in them. I have searched this site over and over and cannot find any reference to it. If I remember correctly, someone that knew how to get in touch with Mr. Corbin was going to follow up on it and see if there ever was an evaluation of that nature done. I am getting the impression that this is a "taboo" subject since all posts relating to it have mysteriously disappeard and nobody out there seems to have been able to contact Mr. Corbin to verify or dismiss the idea that this evaluation ever happened.
Aurum, Dr. Glover, Azmula or LDM (I hope you all are still reading even tho you no longer post) if it was in one of your deleted posts could you be so kind as to PM or email me the details you once had posted?
Jan
Aurum, Dr. Glover, Azmula or LDM (I hope you all are still reading even tho you no longer post) if it was in one of your deleted posts could you be so kind as to PM or email me the details you once had posted?
Jan