Jake's Ore

[Joe Ribaudo]

Late,

You asked LDM:

"Thanks for the additional information regarding the Loveless Collection. Hopefully I will have the opportunity one day to sit down and go through the material. Just curious did she ever talk about the Dutchman having different types of Gold ore. Probably never came up but I thought I would ask."

Perhaps he answered in private, but others may have an interest in the answer.

Loveless dedicated the last three pages of her piece on the LDM, to the "reports" of "Jake's Ore". That would be pages 134, 135 and 136.

"When Jake paid the shoemaker, Charlie Rodig, with ore for mending his shoes, he paid him with gold in pale yellow quartz. The ore he gave to Julia Thomas to pay the mortgage on her house, was gold in white quartz. He was known also to have had wire gold in black quartz, and nugget gold in pink quartz."

"When Jake died, in 1891, some rich pieces of ore were found in a small chest under his bed. These may have come from his bonanza, but there is nothing to confirm this. The ore disappeared the day of the funeral, and no description of it was made known to the palpitating, prospecting public."

Lot's of important information for those who are hunting the LDM is coming out on the old forum. Well....perhaps it is really more important as fill material for someone writing a book on the LDM.

The research that has been done into the hstory of the major players in this mystery, is astounding.

You may be correct as to the importance of LDMs old posts concerning geology. I assume that is what you were referring to.

According to Loveless, Jake discovered his mine about 1874.

Waltz told Charlie Rodig "absolutely nothing" concerning his mine. Charlie got all of his information "from others". I don't know that there is any proof that Charlie ever found anything. The story told by Loveless indicates that he found a rich "placer'. He and his cook were attacked by Apaches, ran from the location, and he was never able to re-find it. It was on "the north side of the river, in the vicinity of Four Peaks". Many believed it was Waltz's placer.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[bill711]

Joe I have one old story on that german and according to it . The german was invited by 2 frenchmen to go with them to the site. The german was in the hole working and he heard some noise and looked out to see the french being killed by indi,s and he sneaked off and made his escape. He didn,t go back if I remeber right. This was in the 4 peaks country. I think he might have told Rose about this location. bill

[late49er]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the follow up information on the ore sample. Think those samples, assuming the information is correct, should give folks pause in thinking that Waltz was only on to one Peralta Mine. But then again one could contend they were just different ore shoots in the same mine. From where I sit the sample containing the black quartz probably came from LDM 1. Bet the white quartz was a mesothermal deposit and the pink quartz probably came from near Miner`s Needle.

No I really don`t talk to folks in private notes. Did help one person who was working the coordinates. He had it pretty much figured out anyway.

Actually LDM`s post I was referencing was not about Geology. One of my associates was reading the board then and his post gave us a lot of heartburn until the problem could be corrected. The man knows more about this stuff than I could know in a hundred lifetimes.

If I am reading you right you are writing a book on the LDM. Good Luck. I imagine you will bring a lot of information to the effort none of us have seen. A few things you might want to look at.

1. Assuming that Waltz`s statement about keeping secrets is as importent as I believe, you may want to think about the connection between Waltz and the Peralta`s. Perhaps Waltz was neither a murderer or traveled to Mexico. Perhaps it is as simple as he ran across a fellow countryman in the Superstitions. They helped each other. Bet you can`t guess his name. The agreement was he had access to certain mines and the two of them could make a buck or two. Actually a lot of bucks. The good life in Virginia City did not come cheap. The passing of his friend was what drove Waltz`s depression in his later years. Not guilt over murdering folks. Waltz was a good decent man. A shame he has been beat up the way he has. It is what it is.

2. Perhaps the reason Waltz wanted to take took Julia and Rhiney into the Superstitions was simply that the main way in had been well taken out. IF one knew the location of the mine one could get there but clues wouldn`t do the trick. Also consider a lot of the clues where dis-information to begin with. They were intended as such. Waltz had to take them.

Oh well I have talked to much again.

Have a good weekend. Save me a copy of your efforts.


Regards,


Late49er

[Joe Ribaudo]

Late,

The problem with writing a book about the LDM, is finding new material as it relates to the mine itself. Those books are being written as we speak. I believe the "new evidence" is being floated in the Dutch Hunting community, and has been, for some time now.

I also believe that any new books/evidence will only lead those who are seeking the LDM farther away, rather than closer.

Not being a "Dutch" hunter myself, brings another approach to looking at the legend. I am not locked into any specific story or area of the mountains. I came to my conclusions, about the LDM, using many stories, some in print and others not, along with a number of maps, some in print and some not.

The many manifestations of Jake's ore, may have a simple explanation.
Over the years, prior to his coming to Phoenix, Jake worked in and around many varied locations where gold was being found. He was a frugal, simple living man.

In those days people held onto their wealth, no matter what it was comprised of. They knew hard times and stayed prepaired. At least those with the background of Jacob Waltz did. All things considered, it seems likely he was a "hoarder" but not a miser. He kept his accumulated wealth close at hand.

Considering his history, that would account for varied types of ore. He would not have kept anything but "cherry pickings". That would account for the legendary "richness" of the man's ore, and the varied reports of the makeup of that ore.

What about the many reports of his trips into the desert? Seem's like a very reasonable ploy, if you have buried years of accumulated ore in your yard, and dig it up now and then for stuff you just "gotta have", or to help a friend in need. Without those trips into the desert, Waltz's yard would have looked like a WWI mine field.

What about the stories he told Julia and Rhiney? Do you think he may have needed a story to explain where the bulk of his wealth actually was, rather than the truth, that it was "out in the garden"? While he was being generous with them, it's unlikely he would take the chance of "giving away the store".

The answers to the LDM mystery, may be very simple. The reasons his mine/cache have not been found, may also be very simple. Perhaps those who are searching have made the trail to the LDM too complicated.

Here is something to chew on: It is said the Dutchman made many trips to his mine. They were very short trips. Another ploy?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[JIM HAMRICK]

The post of Joe Ribaudo on 10-01-05 reflects much of my opinion of the Dutchman's gold. But my opinion and five dollars will get you some coffee concoction at Starbucks.

Thoughts:
1. Waltz was not a poor man as he had 160+/- acres in phoenix with a house.

2. There have been accounts of rich gold ore in his house.

3. Waltz grew a garden and raised chickens ( I don't remember any stories that he hard large livestock ). This along with his ore would allow him to live what would be considered equivelent to a middle class life style today.

4. If Waltz was typical of the old prospectors he would not have his total wealth under his bed. He would likely have it in more than one location for safety.

5. I would not look on Waltz as a hoarder, I would not consider a man who puts money into a savings account to be hoarding.

6. To explain why Waltz would take short trips away from phoenix might be just what a prospctor would do even if reletatively well off. The lure in searching for gold is very strong for some.

7. I do not think there is a mine but if I am wrong then I would believe it to be at Goldfield.

If any one is thinking to explore for stashed gold this might be hard to do, as I think the area of Waltz's house was cleared when Sky Harbor airport bought it for a noise buffer zone and may have businesses built there.

Just something for speculation. If the Dutchman made 6 trips, for example, and brought back 30# of ore each trip that was half gold this would be 180#/2 = 90#. 90 X 12= 1080 oz. of gold, which in todays market would bring about 1/2 million dollars.

Jim Hamrick

[Joe Ribaudo]

Jim,

Nice post, except for the part about Waltz being a hoarder. If you look up the word in your dictionary, you will find a picture of Jacob Waltz.
He would be an excellent example of a person who "hoards" his wealth.

Hope you are feeling better.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[bill711]

Joe; was Jac,s ore ever compared to the 2 crazy prospecters ore? The ones who found the pack saddle pile of gold. I call them silverlock,s and goldielock,s that is how they were referred to in a very old mag. article that I had read! bill I think the nick names were used after they became more ot less a local joke in the area...

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

As far as I know, no one has ever been able to prove they had ore from the LDM. Saying "I got some", don't prove Jack, or Jake, in this case.

Silverlock and Mahlm never showed a speck of gold to anyone, that I have heard of. That does not mean that someone, in the near future, won't produce some rich ore and say it was their's. No doubt a book is in the works, as we speak. (write)

Dr. Glover's work is as close as anyone will ever come to showing there is such a thing as Dutchman's ore and that only rises to the level of maybe.

Take care.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[novice]

In my mind, there are four interesting stories that indicate the LDM "may" exist.

1. Julia and Rhiney believed that it existed. (Waltz told them it did?)
2. Jacob helped Julia get out of financial difficulty after Emil left. (Waltz had Gold?)
3. The warrant for $7,000 in gold ore and the Lawrence, Kansas connection (Waltz had Gold?)
4. The box of Gold under Waltz's bed when he died (Again Waltz had Gold?)

All of these stories may eventually be explained away and that Jacob's LDM never existed in the Superstitions. I haven't reached any conclusions but 1 and 4 seem to have the strongest background.

Addressing No. 4, Dr. Glover did a lot of research concerning the financial transactions of Holmes immediately following Waltz's death. He makes a convincing argument that Holmes did come into some money about that time.

The Dutchman's ore and the Holmes's matchbox appear to be an area where the information is there but is not public. Of course I would be more interested in the documents associated with the jewelry that the actual jewelry.

Both Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn signed affidavits in 1985 (Corbin Book, 1990).

It appears that in about 1982, Bob and Tom viewed the jewelry and documents associated with the ore and jewelry.

Both viewed the ore assay from Goldman's store. (The assay still exists?)

Both viewed the shipping papers for the ore when it was transformed into jewelry.

They apparently were only allowed to "view" the documents and neither reported many details. (Dates, companies, addresses, etc.)

I feel a lot of information could be gleaned from these documents and hopefully someday they will be released to the public. Until then, I suspect we are stuck.

Is the "Arizona Businessman" still maintaining his anonymous status or is his identity widely know within the LDM community?

Garry

[bill711]

Joe; I have seen the sume of 20 to 40 thousand in print several times that they sold the gold for that they allegedly found. I do not know myself. BUT if they sold the gold there in phinix maybe there,s a doc. of the transaction? maybe! Something happened to get these 2 guys to pick and shovel for 30 yrs. there on the slopes. I am not TRYING to make any claims or anything, I was wondering if it was true and iF there was any ore comparision with the so called dutchmans ore? I think I remember Tom K. talking like he thought that the 2 men found some ore or something like that.. MY take on it is was it parelta gold they found? How did it compare to the alledgedlly dutchman,s ore?? bill

[late49er]

Joe, Bill, Jim, Novice

The Peralta Mine, known as the LDM, and I refer to as LDM 1 does exist.

Interestingly enough it is not the richest Peralta Mine in the Superstitions. Its importance is far greater than that.

The ancient ones were there a long time ago and left a gift.

Perhaps it is time to deal with this in a straight forward manner. Perhaps not.

I will need to talk to some folks.

Stay tuned.


Regards,


Late49er

[Joe Ribaudo]

Late,

I would suggest that you contact greyhair on this forum, or wait for the camp out and speak to him in person.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[bill711]

NO Joe; Let,s talk about it NOW. If he will talk. YOU can discuss it at your campout later! I want to know what the late has found. I will know if it is the one the jac. was working on. BUT I beleive the late. and friends found something diff. than what our friend the dutchman worked. bill

[late49er]

Joe,

There is no real reason to speak with Grayhair. We have decided to donate the written material to a University in the South. We are currently discussing placement of the items with with two institutions. It is what it is.

Bill,

The information I am referencing comes from Martin`s diary. We still are debating what to do.



Regards,


Late 49er

[bill711]

Late; I,m sure that Martine wanted to pass the info on otherwise why write it down diary or no? You never write down info unless you want it passed along to someone! If you give the info to a university How long before a person can expect to see the papers or info?? The info might be there but can it be found? bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Late,

Sorry, I just assumed you would be trying to place the material in Arizona. I will mind my own business here.

Bill,

Hope all is well with you.

Take care.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Late: Would his diary have something about a cave with giant furniture? Late when I said he would want to pass the info on; I did not mean anything of a personal nature? BUT a treasure hunt is different or what have you... bill

[late49er]

Joe,

We wanted to place the material in Arizona. It is clear that it is not wanted. We approached several entities in the state.

Bill,

Martin was a mining engineer who was employed by the Peralta`s and left their employ after the Massacre. The diary is a 225 page history of Peralta Mining Operations in the Superstitutions with precise locators of their mines. It also tells the story of the other and the circumstances surrounding its discovery. It tells his story in America. And a lot more.

Regards,


Late49er

[late49er]

Joe,

I need to apologize for my remarks. Irregardless of the circumstances they were inappropriate.

I am sure the folks down there do a wonderful job in promoting Arizona at its history.


Regards,


Late49er

[bill711]

Late; I know how disapointing that type of reaction to a very good historical donation can be! I was going to donate my coin and dollar collection to my old school and was refused! Why? Because they didn,t want to pay the insurance for it. I see now why that old man and woman bought a bunch of A.L. Flag paintings at a rummage sale at the museam to raise money. The painting value were estimated at over 2 million! The old man and woman paid something like 3.00 bucks for them. WELL I would sure like to read and study his map and papers over. I have never found anything that sweet yet. It,s too bad that we can,t have a small pamplet or book made of the paper,s? I thank you alot Late. Hi Joe! bill

[late49er]

Bill

Have to admit there is a certain amount of humor to all of this.

But have to say the people we have selected will do a quality job and at the end of the day that is all that is really importent.

My associates are both from Georgia and we have selected an institution close to them, and actually given their efforts it is appropriate they receive recognition in their own neck of the woods.

Perhaps this history is better stored near the folks who preserved and nutured the area. Personally I am very proud of what has been done.

Hopefully we will post some material here soon that will be of interest to you.


Regards,


Late49er

[late49er]

Joe,

See you have been bad again. Oh well. Hopefully things will work out. Is this part of your conspiracy to take over the board? Have to say you ellict a lot of colorful metaphors.

Bill, Joe

let`s see, if you want to understand Martin`s diary, where do we begin.

Really the first place to research is the history of Eldorado Canyon in Nevada. Eldorado Canyon is south of Las Vegas and sits on the Colorado river. This place is a very importent part of the story and understanding what went on there will help with your understanding of the tie in between the Superstitions and Virginia City. Good Luck.

Next consider the statement: "the direction of my mine is the narrow gorge." This was uttered by Martin in his first meeting with another German in the Superstitions. Guess who? Also consider why does this question also relate to the Stone Maps? Why is it that the trail begins with the heart? Consider the possibility that the LDM and the Stone Maps have always been the same thing. Different sides of the same coin sorta speak.

You have to step back and see the coin,(essence) before you can understand the LDM or the Stone Maps. The coin is the gift.

Also consider the following. If you are not ready for what is you will never see it. Folks have walked right by the truth for a 100 years. "the direction of my mine is the narrow gorge".

You folks have come a long way since February.

Long day hope this at least makes a little sense.


Regards,


Late49er

[Joe Ribaudo]

Late,

You can learn a lot about a man, by looking at his enemies. One seldom knows who a man's real friends are, but there is no doubting the hatred that emanates from his enemies.

When you are in the middle of a firefight you will find the true meaning of friendship. It is easy to find friends when the smell of the smoke is a faint memory.

Those are some of the lessons I hve learned on the road to this place and time.

I am comfortable with the "trouble" I have found on the forum.

I have been at the "heart" for awhile now, and only recently (last few years) decided that it may not be the end of the trail.

When you say "the trail begins with the heart", I believe that may be the case. What that means to me, is that if I begin where the Stone Maps start, and follow the trail to the heart, I will have passed the treasure(s). There are many things that point out the truth of that conclusion.

That also means, that if you know that the heart is not really the end of the trail, then other symbols on the Stone Maps are what you are seeking.
Once you know that, you can approach those symbols from any direction in the mountains. There will be no one place to start, and a number of places to end. It is a map of misdirection, yet precise.

I have known much of that for over thirty years, but focused on the end of the Stone Map Trail, believing that the other locations were secondary. Lots of footprints around that heart. I am now ready to approach the symbols, as the end of the trails. The good part is that I know where each of them are.

See you soon,

Joe

[late49er]

Hi Joe,

Seems like this board is becoming well a bad part of town. A lot of gunslinging and ambushes going on. One would think the evil doers would at least get a bit more imaginative. Wonder what the folks that run this place must be thinking. Oh well.

Always viewed the stone maps as being incomplete at best. There are other maps out there that have not been located. Trust me on this.

Having said that you are right on about the heart. The journey to the heart is aimed a changing the seeker as much as it is taking you to the heart itself. It prepares you to see what has always been there.

There is one trail from the heart. There are only precious few footprints there. It takes you to the other. The other is what illuminates the symbols.

Having said that you are perfectly correct about the other symbols. They are in many ways all destinations. There are things buried in those mountains that go back a long, long time.

Who knows I suspect you may find a cave of gold bars sooner than you think. You now know how to look at the symbols.

Really ought to check out Eldorado Canyon. There is quite a story there about the ancient ones.

Have a good weekend.


Late 49er