It has been interesting to see a number of the better know and respected members of the forum, run from taking sides, because they don't want to be drawn into a fight. I consider a number of them my "friends". Some have spent a few days as guests in my home. Each of them have been defended by me, both in public and private, over these last few years.
Most of those peope have remained silent while I have been called every name in the book, as well a being lied about. I have also spoken in defense of those who were not my friends. Truth does not have a side.
Not taking sides in something that is affecting the flow of ideas in a forum you enjoy participating in, on a fairly regular basis, reminds me of Neville Chamberlain's efforts to appease Adolph Hitler prior to WWII.
While there is no comparison in the two events and places, the common thread between them, is the act of appeasment. If we don't make either side angry, we can "keep the peace".
The results of appeasment is seldom the desired peace. The forum is a good example of the escalating behaviour that results from appeasment or silence.
Some have spoken out in a general denunciation which could be taken by either side as as an endorsement. While your silence and two-sided comments have effectively silenced any defense on my part, it will only embolden the "victors" to attempt to silence others.
You may notice that my attackers are now speaking for the entire forum, except for those who have spoken directly to them. If that is the voice you want representing your thoughts, by all means remain silent.
Since there are no "real" moderators or rules for the LDM Forum, it is up to the members to mold the forum into a source for the free flow of information and ideas, concerning the Lost Dutchman Mine, which they would like for it to be.
It is not in me to be a party to the politics of appeasment.
Joe Ribaudo
Silence
Silence
Joe,
It just simply is not right. If folks down there can`t see that it says a lot more about them than it does you.
A great man once said our destiny is our intergrity. If I was you I would be ok with your destiny. On the other hand the folks sitting on the sidelines or activly involved in this nonsense need to look in the mirror. What they see is not very pretty.
Regards,
Late49er
It just simply is not right. If folks down there can`t see that it says a lot more about them than it does you.
A great man once said our destiny is our intergrity. If I was you I would be ok with your destiny. On the other hand the folks sitting on the sidelines or activly involved in this nonsense need to look in the mirror. What they see is not very pretty.
Regards,
Late49er
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Joe Ribaudo
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Silence
Late,
Thanks for your comment.
What you say is true, but I was more interested in the silence of my "friends", as opposed to the membership in general.
A friend worth having, is a friend worth defending. I have done so a number of times here, at times against the words of others I consider "friends".
I expect the general silence to continue. Once you crawl under your bed, it's difficult to drag yourself out into the open.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Thanks for your comment.
What you say is true, but I was more interested in the silence of my "friends", as opposed to the membership in general.
A friend worth having, is a friend worth defending. I have done so a number of times here, at times against the words of others I consider "friends".
I expect the general silence to continue. Once you crawl under your bed, it's difficult to drag yourself out into the open.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Nothing too personal, Joe, but I suspect you would be better received
if you would shut up about things you know little or nothing about.
"I must admit, I am clueless as to what you are talking about.
I always have been. Just trying to keep the conversation flowing."
There was an "authority" on one of the aviation bulletin boards, respected
by all. His knowledge was amazing. In one case He even gave the chip
number for the integrated circuit used on the vibration sensors on the
space shuttle turbo pumps. He had to be asked for that info, he didn't
lay it out there, unwanted, to show how much he knew.
Our topics are different in that we seldom deal in the realm of hard
facts but I think there is something to learn from why "Henry" was
so well respected with his stunning aviation knowledge and you,
with maybe a similar knowledge, some make fun of.
No one yet knows how to take Team Fever with certainty.
They passed on the opportunity to meet us and there isn't
enough information out there about us for an informed judgement.
We are not wasting bandwidth to make others believe we know more
than we know or even to show how much we know.
You could do the same.
Just my opinion on why you may have lost your "friends."
Harry
if you would shut up about things you know little or nothing about.
"I must admit, I am clueless as to what you are talking about.
I always have been. Just trying to keep the conversation flowing."
There was an "authority" on one of the aviation bulletin boards, respected
by all. His knowledge was amazing. In one case He even gave the chip
number for the integrated circuit used on the vibration sensors on the
space shuttle turbo pumps. He had to be asked for that info, he didn't
lay it out there, unwanted, to show how much he knew.
Our topics are different in that we seldom deal in the realm of hard
facts but I think there is something to learn from why "Henry" was
so well respected with his stunning aviation knowledge and you,
with maybe a similar knowledge, some make fun of.
No one yet knows how to take Team Fever with certainty.
They passed on the opportunity to meet us and there isn't
enough information out there about us for an informed judgement.
We are not wasting bandwidth to make others believe we know more
than we know or even to show how much we know.
You could do the same.
Just my opinion on why you may have lost your "friends."
Harry
silence
Harry; Are you saying that we should not ask questions or have our say on a subject? How does the conversation CARRY FORWARD if we all do this? I think we would just be in a yes and no type of forum if we do! NOTE we are in a forum where we are ALL WELCOME to SPEAK our piece regardless of who we are and this includes JOE, true maybe some of the members may take him the wrong way but he helps keep the conversation from dying out completly. I have not seen Joe abuse anyone here. WE have kicked www,s nasty rear BUT that is a god given duty when he gets too far out and flaky. ARE YOU saying that I love Joe is doing the right thing? I think who ever is doing it has lost control of his good judgement. NOTE; The stupid question is the one not asked; The lost information is the piece NOT spoken. YOUR TURN Bill 8)
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Joe Ribaudo
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Maybe So
Harry,
You could be right.
Do you want to give me a few examples?
I admitted I did not know what you were talking about, which only has to do with you.
Part of keeping the conversation flowing on a site like this, is not knowing everything about every topic, but knowing what to ask to elicit more information from those who do.
If you should decide to research some of the places where I have asked questions, and you think I did not know what I was talking about, you will find that the questions did not come from a place of complete ignorance.
I know a little about a lot of subjects, and a lot about a few. It is useless for you to try to figure out which are which, as I am never sure myself.
Someone like Late49er, who obviously knows a great deal about geology, has no idea what I know, even though I have stated many times, I don't know shit about rocks. The reason he is not sure, is because I have asked some questions and made some observations that seem to make me a liar.
That has helped keep the conversation going, and Late interested. It has also been of interest to some of the members who do know shit about rocks. I admit guilt, just don't know what crime was commited. Without those comments and questions, the topic would have died at once. If I had asked uninformed questions or made stupid (in error) comments, it also would have ended.
You had no idea I did not know what you were talking about, until I told you so. In case you didn't notice, it kept the conversation flowing.
Exchange of ideas if the life blood of this forum. Without that exchange, the forum dies. Without someone asking an informed question, there is no exchange. My questions and comments are always informed. That does not mean I am an expert, only that I am an excellent researcher.
I came back and added to this reply, because I believe you deserved something better. I hope you look at it that way, but I realize I did not treat you with respect in the statement you quoted.
I apologize for that lack of respect. We are all able to rise to the level of assholes on occassion. I may do it more often than others.
Respectfully,
Joe
You could be right.
Do you want to give me a few examples?
I admitted I did not know what you were talking about, which only has to do with you.
Part of keeping the conversation flowing on a site like this, is not knowing everything about every topic, but knowing what to ask to elicit more information from those who do.
If you should decide to research some of the places where I have asked questions, and you think I did not know what I was talking about, you will find that the questions did not come from a place of complete ignorance.
I know a little about a lot of subjects, and a lot about a few. It is useless for you to try to figure out which are which, as I am never sure myself.
Someone like Late49er, who obviously knows a great deal about geology, has no idea what I know, even though I have stated many times, I don't know shit about rocks. The reason he is not sure, is because I have asked some questions and made some observations that seem to make me a liar.
That has helped keep the conversation going, and Late interested. It has also been of interest to some of the members who do know shit about rocks. I admit guilt, just don't know what crime was commited. Without those comments and questions, the topic would have died at once. If I had asked uninformed questions or made stupid (in error) comments, it also would have ended.
You had no idea I did not know what you were talking about, until I told you so. In case you didn't notice, it kept the conversation flowing.
Exchange of ideas if the life blood of this forum. Without that exchange, the forum dies. Without someone asking an informed question, there is no exchange. My questions and comments are always informed. That does not mean I am an expert, only that I am an excellent researcher.
I came back and added to this reply, because I believe you deserved something better. I hope you look at it that way, but I realize I did not treat you with respect in the statement you quoted.
I apologize for that lack of respect. We are all able to rise to the level of assholes on occassion. I may do it more often than others.
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe,
Someone finally got your attention.
Giving you your own forum didn't do it. Telling you to shut up didn't do it.
Criticizing you didn't do it. Making fun of you didn't do it. People leaving
the forum didn't do it. Answering your posts with an exaggerated parody
of your posts finally did it. Brilliant idea. Give that guy a medal.
If you want to know what your peers object to, read the parodies.
The implied message and perceived purpose in most of your posts is
"I know more than you". That gets old pretty quick and since you will
even enter a thread addressed to someone else they can't get away
from it.
One of the parodies accused you of having two other login ids?
For a guy that prides himself on using his real name that is pretty
poor. Is it true?
Probably most of what you know has already been said so why not
shut the f*** up for a while and see what happens? My guess is that
the forum will slow down but will pick up eventually when those that
left come back. There are others that want to imply "I know more than
you." Give them a shot.
Yes, I did know you didn't know what you were talking about.
For a short time I was even willing to explain our understanding
of the 1, arced line, and triangle. I think I may have offered it
but no one was interested.
The forum could use more walkers and fewer talkers who want to
discuss ad infinitum which hand ole' Jake used to wipe his butt.
Adding walkers to the forum would be a good goal.
Just my opinion,
Harry
Someone finally got your attention.
Giving you your own forum didn't do it. Telling you to shut up didn't do it.
Criticizing you didn't do it. Making fun of you didn't do it. People leaving
the forum didn't do it. Answering your posts with an exaggerated parody
of your posts finally did it. Brilliant idea. Give that guy a medal.
If you want to know what your peers object to, read the parodies.
The implied message and perceived purpose in most of your posts is
"I know more than you". That gets old pretty quick and since you will
even enter a thread addressed to someone else they can't get away
from it.
One of the parodies accused you of having two other login ids?
For a guy that prides himself on using his real name that is pretty
poor. Is it true?
Probably most of what you know has already been said so why not
shut the f*** up for a while and see what happens? My guess is that
the forum will slow down but will pick up eventually when those that
left come back. There are others that want to imply "I know more than
you." Give them a shot.
Yes, I did know you didn't know what you were talking about.
For a short time I was even willing to explain our understanding
of the 1, arced line, and triangle. I think I may have offered it
but no one was interested.
The forum could use more walkers and fewer talkers who want to
discuss ad infinitum which hand ole' Jake used to wipe his butt.
Adding walkers to the forum would be a good goal.
Just my opinion,
Harry
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
OK
Harry,
You could be right.
The one (1) is a starting place in a canyon. The curved line is a trail, very old, that leads directly to a stone heart. It is maybe fifteen feet tall.
Below the stone heart is a triangle. You can't miss it. If you know that, you can find the rest of the map with ease.
"Answering your posts with an exaggerated parody
of your posts finally did it. Brilliant idea. Give that guy a medal."
You give him the medal, that's just what he expects. He had nothing to do with what I am trying to do now. I can see where some people might think the same as you. He was not playing to me, but to you.
It is obvious that he is speaking for you, as well as some of the other members of the forum. Same as Wyatt was.
It is good that you understand what they have been trying to say. I admit I am clueless. The fact that you don't know if DED, Bill and I are not the same person, shows you have been paying close attention.
Does this mean you have accepted my apology?
I meant it.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
You could be right.
The one (1) is a starting place in a canyon. The curved line is a trail, very old, that leads directly to a stone heart. It is maybe fifteen feet tall.
Below the stone heart is a triangle. You can't miss it. If you know that, you can find the rest of the map with ease.
"Answering your posts with an exaggerated parody
of your posts finally did it. Brilliant idea. Give that guy a medal."
You give him the medal, that's just what he expects. He had nothing to do with what I am trying to do now. I can see where some people might think the same as you. He was not playing to me, but to you.
It is obvious that he is speaking for you, as well as some of the other members of the forum. Same as Wyatt was.
It is good that you understand what they have been trying to say. I admit I am clueless. The fact that you don't know if DED, Bill and I are not the same person, shows you have been paying close attention.
Does this mean you have accepted my apology?
I meant it.Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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dutch elm disease
- Part Timer
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:06 pm
Im not even going to waste energy any more denying these silly claims thatI,bill and joe are one and the same.If the fools wanna believe....then let them...the fools will ALWAYS believe!
This latest in a long series of attacks on 1 individual is typical of the actions of the "forum clique". whether that "clique" is several individuals or just 1 person under numerous user names i personally dont know...or even care.I suspect the author of these attacks has an agenda which is something after the fashion of "if i cant be "king" of the forum ,then ill destroy it".Im not gonna name that person..(a)cos its pretty obvious who he is ..and (b) cos the guy is a jerk. and would prob derive some personal satisfaction from seeing his name mentioned.
lifes too short for all this....methinks this forum is rapidly disintegrating and its a pity.
This latest in a long series of attacks on 1 individual is typical of the actions of the "forum clique". whether that "clique" is several individuals or just 1 person under numerous user names i personally dont know...or even care.I suspect the author of these attacks has an agenda which is something after the fashion of "if i cant be "king" of the forum ,then ill destroy it".Im not gonna name that person..(a)cos its pretty obvious who he is ..and (b) cos the guy is a jerk. and would prob derive some personal satisfaction from seeing his name mentioned.
lifes too short for all this....methinks this forum is rapidly disintegrating and its a pity.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Same Old Story
Bill and DED,
If these guys had anything to say, they might get off that old song and dance. Truth is, it's the best game they have. Don't look for anything meaningful.
Hope you guys have a good weekend.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
If these guys had anything to say, they might get off that old song and dance. Truth is, it's the best game they have. Don't look for anything meaningful.
Hope you guys have a good weekend.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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WyattWestwood
- Part Timer
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:35 am
Your full of it!
Billy,
You are so full of shit that it's pathetic! Your the one that needs therapy.
People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
Rochha
You are so full of shit that it's pathetic! Your the one that needs therapy.
People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
Rochha
silence
www; What you need is to have some of that outhouse crap kicked out from between your ears and have your loose lips modified alot. YOU have tried to keep the forum tied up in a big hubbubloo ever since you first started posting. NOW get back in your ooze and shut up. JOE that is the little mouthy girls who keep putting the Joe is cool crap on here, and excretment like www is egging it on. Bill 
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WyattWestwood
- Part Timer
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:35 am
silence
NOBODY is trying to shut you up! We do expect you to QUIT your fussing and name calling and conduct your self in a sane and orderly way while you are on the forum! This means NO more Wild claims and NO more cussing people out! Conduct yourself! bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
What?
Bill,
Speak for yourself. I would be just as happy if he "shut up". Guys been an asshole since his first post. Came in as a dick, and will go out as a dick. Says I jumped on him right out of the box. If he could figure out how to do it, he needs to go back and read his first post. Pure asshole.
Respectfully,
Joe
Speak for yourself. I would be just as happy if he "shut up". Guys been an asshole since his first post. Came in as a dick, and will go out as a dick. Says I jumped on him right out of the box. If he could figure out how to do it, he needs to go back and read his first post. Pure asshole.
Respectfully,
Joe
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WyattWestwood
- Part Timer
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:35 am
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Creating Nothing
Billy,
There was no need to create " a dumbass inbread hillbilly....Mongoloid", as we already have our quota here on the forum. He calls himself, Wyatt Westwood. We know for sure he is all of the things listed above, because he spells inbred, "inbread".
That explains a lot of your behaviour.
When are you going to visit the Moderated Forum? I am waiting to hear from you and the I love twins, so I can boot your asse's out of there. Of course you might say something worth leaving on the site.....nah.....
"Right now it seems that you are the one everyone wants to shut up."
I understand why you believe you can speak for "everyone". You believe you are everyone, and the way things are going on the forum, that may become the truth.
"double-dog Dick Heads".
Only you could come up with that.
Joe Ribaudo
There was no need to create " a dumbass inbread hillbilly....Mongoloid", as we already have our quota here on the forum. He calls himself, Wyatt Westwood. We know for sure he is all of the things listed above, because he spells inbred, "inbread".
That explains a lot of your behaviour.When are you going to visit the Moderated Forum? I am waiting to hear from you and the I love twins, so I can boot your asse's out of there. Of course you might say something worth leaving on the site.....nah.....
"Right now it seems that you are the one everyone wants to shut up."
I understand why you believe you can speak for "everyone". You believe you are everyone, and the way things are going on the forum, that may become the truth.
"double-dog Dick Heads".
Only you could come up with that.
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
J,s in the Sup,s
Joe; I beleive that www watches cartunes too! Maybe that where he gets all his fantises of himself? bill
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dutch elm disease
- Part Timer
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Joe Ribaudo
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Right or Wrong?
Bill,
You asked me to go back and read LDM and Dr. Glover's last posts on the old forum. I had done that a number of times already, but did follow your advise.
The problem, as I see it, is this: Some people confuse the process of proving something right or wrong, with proving someone right or wrong.
They do the same thing when deciding not to speak out against something that is wrong, for fear that they will be seen as taking the side of someone.
When people have opposing views of the "truth", and one of them decides his version of the truth is no longer worth proving, if possible, the only thing lost is the truth.
When this happens with historical statements of the "facts", given time, real history will be rewritten. Some people find that important enough to research the "facts" and correct the mistake. I have done that to myself a number of times on this forum.
LDMs post, made it clear that providing evidence that Perico did move to the Mescalero Reservation was secondary to NOT showing that Peter was
still making a false statement and possibly hurting his feelings. He also made it clear that the main motivations in most of my posts, was to "come in first" or to be "right".
He then stated that he would no longer post, because of that.
Right after that, Peter made his standard "Happy now, Joe? You must feel proud....clueless" post. He must keep it tacked up on the wall.
After that, I felt I explained my reasoning to LDM with the next post. I also apologized to him. That was fruitless.
As for my other friend, Dr. Glover, his post was edited, but this part was not: "However, it seemed that things were changing, but it was only an illusion. I had thought of rejoining the Forum when it looked to be turning around."
The only thing that changed on the forum, which was "turning around" was that I returned to posting on a single topic. The net results was that LDM and Dr. Glover will no longer be posting.
Was it something I did wrong? Yes! I returned to my own topic, and provided facts on the subject. I did not lay down and let LDM or Peter talk down to me, or my sources, which were not only well respected by their peers, but by the Apache as well. Another small fact here, is that they were right. I was not right, they are the ones who spent those decades with the Apache, and they are the ones who deserve the respect, and apologies from LDM and Peter, both. Like I would do for any friend, I stuck up for them.
When either of those two decide to provide the same type of resumes as Eve Ball, Morris Opler, Grenville Goodwin and Angie Debo, I will be the first to apologize. As it was, I always thought LDM walked on water, but I never confused him with these folks.
The only reason LDM and Dr. Glover are no longer posting on the LDM Forum, is because neither of them ever had the backbone to stand up and defend it from those who were trying to tear it down. They, along with the other silent, well respected members are the real cause of it's demise. If they belived it was me, they should have stood up and said so, I would have respected them, even if I disagreed.
Now, they are both off jousting windmills, instead of fighting a real enemy.
The Forum was worth fighting for, there were just no generals/soldiers willing to take up the battle.
Peter and Wiz,
Yes I am proud. It is you and your little army of piss-ant retards that have run off LDM and Dr. Glover. I have to admit, you were good little generals. When you are proud of what you have done, you will also be able to sign your names at the bottom of your posts.
Joe Ribaudo
You asked me to go back and read LDM and Dr. Glover's last posts on the old forum. I had done that a number of times already, but did follow your advise.
The problem, as I see it, is this: Some people confuse the process of proving something right or wrong, with proving someone right or wrong.
They do the same thing when deciding not to speak out against something that is wrong, for fear that they will be seen as taking the side of someone.
When people have opposing views of the "truth", and one of them decides his version of the truth is no longer worth proving, if possible, the only thing lost is the truth.
When this happens with historical statements of the "facts", given time, real history will be rewritten. Some people find that important enough to research the "facts" and correct the mistake. I have done that to myself a number of times on this forum.
LDMs post, made it clear that providing evidence that Perico did move to the Mescalero Reservation was secondary to NOT showing that Peter was
still making a false statement and possibly hurting his feelings. He also made it clear that the main motivations in most of my posts, was to "come in first" or to be "right".
He then stated that he would no longer post, because of that.
Right after that, Peter made his standard "Happy now, Joe? You must feel proud....clueless" post. He must keep it tacked up on the wall.
After that, I felt I explained my reasoning to LDM with the next post. I also apologized to him. That was fruitless.
As for my other friend, Dr. Glover, his post was edited, but this part was not: "However, it seemed that things were changing, but it was only an illusion. I had thought of rejoining the Forum when it looked to be turning around."
The only thing that changed on the forum, which was "turning around" was that I returned to posting on a single topic. The net results was that LDM and Dr. Glover will no longer be posting.
Was it something I did wrong? Yes! I returned to my own topic, and provided facts on the subject. I did not lay down and let LDM or Peter talk down to me, or my sources, which were not only well respected by their peers, but by the Apache as well. Another small fact here, is that they were right. I was not right, they are the ones who spent those decades with the Apache, and they are the ones who deserve the respect, and apologies from LDM and Peter, both. Like I would do for any friend, I stuck up for them.
When either of those two decide to provide the same type of resumes as Eve Ball, Morris Opler, Grenville Goodwin and Angie Debo, I will be the first to apologize. As it was, I always thought LDM walked on water, but I never confused him with these folks.
The only reason LDM and Dr. Glover are no longer posting on the LDM Forum, is because neither of them ever had the backbone to stand up and defend it from those who were trying to tear it down. They, along with the other silent, well respected members are the real cause of it's demise. If they belived it was me, they should have stood up and said so, I would have respected them, even if I disagreed.
Now, they are both off jousting windmills, instead of fighting a real enemy.
The Forum was worth fighting for, there were just no generals/soldiers willing to take up the battle.
Peter and Wiz,
Yes I am proud. It is you and your little army of piss-ant retards that have run off LDM and Dr. Glover. I have to admit, you were good little generals. When you are proud of what you have done, you will also be able to sign your names at the bottom of your posts.
Joe Ribaudo
silence
Joe are you charging ldm and doc Blover with P.C.?? Being above the fray? an so on? You didn,t really think that your books could carry as much weight as some old indian fart,s imagination do you? He probily only had so many strokes that only the sane part of his brain was effected! NOW you understand why I said that indians like to brag alot! Remember Joe I heard the little pig sing and it wasn,t oink Johnson either!! Remember this JOE when these people go to practicing indian culture and learning indian ways they THINK they have to get protective of it and turn mean. Bill