Petalta Battle - Where Did It Start???

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Roger
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Petalta Battle - Where Did It Start???

Post by Roger »

Brownie Holmes in his manuscript writes on Page 41 of a young Indian taking a Mr. Spears of Phoenix into the Supers. to "where a white man had gotten gold". He writes:

"Mr. Spears took a buck board with supplies and hay for their team and drove about eight miles east to Tortilla Spring and from there Northwest over a dim trail and at noon stopped in the shade of an overhang and ate their lunch of sardines and bread. The Indian took Spears to the head of a steep canyon and told him to go down the canyon and hunt but refused to go with him. Mr. Spears being a very heavy man said he was afraid to go down fro fear that he might not be able to get back. Learning of this, I made several trips to Indian Springs (note: today's name for Tortilla Spring) trying to locate the canyon. ....... The Indian also told Spears that the early Spaniards loaded their animals at Indian Springs, to return to Mexico which was where the afore-mentioned fight had started."

I have run across at least two other mentions of the Spanish having a camp at the head of Peters Canyon. If this is where the Peralta battle with the Indians took place and they were driven westward to the North side of Superstition Mtn. for the final stand, they would have had to travel over Peters Mesa and down Charlesbois to get there. This would account for the Kochera gold being found on the North end of Peters Mesa as the Indians cut the gold off the mules where they captured them.

Has anyone else found information on where the Peralta battle with the Indians started? It would pass reason that they would have had their camp as close as possible to their mining operations to minimize travel and ore hauling.

Roger[/b]
Peter
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Post by Peter »

I am not terribly sure the Spears story is accurate...heres why...

NO Apache would eat thlog (fish). To them it was "chandesii-b'itzi" (ghost meat) and therefore taboo. (eating fish, of course, was a sure way to contract the "ghost sickness").

There are various humorous first hand accounts given by white soldiers relating the following story.

Apache boys seemed to have a sweet tooth and were always pestering the soldiers for sugar and molasses at the fort commisaries at San Carlos and Fort Apache. How did the soldiers chase the boys away? Simple.
They placed a can of crab or lobster or sardines on the table and the boys would flee in panic . Bourke said that firing a howitzer over their head would not ellicit a more frenzied response !

In any event, I have always doubted the Spears tale because of the information I have related above....now if they had just eaten jerked beef instead... lol

As to the Peralta/Mexican fight...which one are you refering to? I am convinced there was more than one fight with the Apache. One most likely occurred in the late 1840s and the other in the early '60s. The fight we are concerned with is probably the second one.
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Peralta battle, where did it start?

Post by Ron »

Peter,

Your one of the only other one's that believe in two such dates on the Apache massacre. Please elaborate. As far as the other post , that it was probaly close to their mining area, I too believe that to be the case. Now where do you think a major mining activity with enough gold, silver could of happened? As for Kochera's gold being part of this, it was not, for Kochera told me of the rotted saddlebags , and they were not of this vintage.
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Kochera Saddle Bag?

Post by S.C. »

Ron,

That is an interesting tid-bit about the Kochera saddle bag. It was NOT Mexican vitage 1840 or 1860? What was it then? I have not heard this twist because it is often assumed that it was a Mexican bag - and could have been from the escaping Mexican mining party. Please elaborate. You have peaked our interest.

S.C.
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Post by Peter »

Ron,

This is all conjecture on my part, I may well be wrong in my "theories". But here goes.

This is based mainly on what I know of Peralta family history and my other sources, which I do not elaborate on.

To understand the presence and ultimate "eviction" of the Mexican (Peralta?) mining parties in the Superstitions, one must first understand where the Mexicans began their mining operations and the logical conclusions that they reached. For whatever reason (old Church documents, mineral grants, treasure maps, mineral formation, luck) something lead fairly large and well equipped parties of Mexican miners to the Goldfield and a little later the interior of the Superstitions proper.
Being human, their operations focused on the easily developed mineralized areas first..Goldfield and perhaps areas on the periphery of the Wilderness: Mormon Flat, Tortilla Creek, Horse Mesa, Mesquite Flats, etc... Eventually these areas played out, but their scouting parties reported
good color in the various creeks and canyons leading into the interior of the mountains and they probed more deeply into the mountains.

At this time the Indian problem was not a major threat. As most of you folks know, the Superstitions were not the home of any Apache bands and the Mexicans did not seriously threaten any surrounding bands of Indians.
They had guns, the Apache did not, and they were a large and well armed party. Sure, animal herds were a prime target for small bands of Yavapais ,Pinaleno and Coyotero and I am sure a sentry or scout went missing every now and then, but it wasnt anything major, as the miners expanded their operation into the interior of the mountains.

By the 1840s much of the western part of the range was explored and prospected by the Mexican parties. I beleive the Needle Canyon/Bluff Springs Mtn area was a hub of activity. I also beleive Tortilla Mtn had several active areas.There was good water there (Marsh Valley) at that time, and Bluff Springs Mtn was a natural fortress to guard animal herds against small raiding war parties.

At this time, something happened that changed the Apache attitude towards the mining parties. Were innocent "friendly" Indians killed by callous Mexican? Apache women abused? Holy places defiled?Who knows for sure...perhaps it was a little of everything.

The Apache began intensifying their raids and ultimately succeeded in driving the large Mexican party out of the mountains. This would probably have taken place in the late 1840s/early 1850s. There was no massacre, but the toll on the mining parties was exacting, and they felt it better to leave than stay and die.

Again, we have a significant event occur during this time frame that would cause the Mexicans to risk all a scant decade later. Sometime in the mid-late 40s the area where the Dutchman is located was found. Mining began, but they were just barely able to scratch the surface when they left because of Apache pressure.

Fast forward 10 years. The American Civil War is in full sway. The desire to unearth the wealth of the LDM burns in some Peralta members hearts.
There is no American army anywhere in Arizona. There are hardly any Americans, except in Tuscon and with the California Column who are busy
fighting Confederates in New Mexico and Cochise further south.

The Peraltas decide on one last trip north to unearth the rich mine they have uncovered. Perhaps they arrive in the 1860-61 time period. For a while things go well, they are able to work a pair of shafts into the mountain and start on a tunnel below the shafts. They have a main camp and a work camp. They have an arrastra near the mine area. All is well...

Until the storm breaks. This time it is a concerted effort of different bands of Apache: Yavapais under Nanni-Chaddi and Chal-i-pun, Coyoteros and Pinalenos and this time the Apache royalty..the Bedonkohe Chiricahua join the fray.

This time it IS a massacre. Probably sometime in the 1862-64 timeframe
the big fight takes place. The work camps are over run, the main camp destroyed and the last remnant of fleeing (or herded) Mexicans fall near what today we call the Massacre Grounds.

WHERE did all of the above take place? Good question. Most likely in the interior of the mountains, east of the Mexican camps near Bluff Springs Mtn.

Am I right? Who knows. But it's as good a guess as any.

As to the Kochera (and I do not want to get into this debate again) find,
he either found the ore exactly like he says, that is it seemed to have been discarded on the trail..or he found it someplace else. And I beleive the latter is correct.
Ron
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Peralta battle, wheredid it start?

Post by Ron »

S.C.

First I want to say again , I knew Kochera for over 20 years. I will relate to you what I remember he said about the saddlebags. He felt they were of 1870-1890's vintage. I believe from style , straps, etc. Of course he may have been wrong, but he did not feel they were from Mexican prospectors coming out with gold. They were in my mind what I envision as cavalary style. Remember the key here is they were well rotted from his description. So indentification may not of been too complete. I will also say that he never believed the massacre to of taken place on Peter's where he absolutely found the gold ore. He never told tall tales or in my opinion ever lied. The gold was were he said he found it , and you can take that to the bank. Again as I said I agree with Peter on two massacres, 1840's and again 1860's, too early for the style of saddlebags Kochera told me about. Also thank you Peter for your rendition of the massacres.
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Post by Peter »

Ron,

Your revelation about the type (and especially the dating) of the Kochera saddlebag makes perfect sense in relation to what I know about the true history of the area. Interesting that
a "cavalry" saddlebag would hold ore that very closely matched the known
Dutchman ore samples....isnt it?

This of course, begs the question: where exactly did this ore come from and who lost or discarded the saddlebag in that location?
Ron
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Peralta battle where did it start?

Post by Ron »

Peter,


Yes it is very interesting. Again that was Kochera's take, which as you , I think is plausible. If they were in fact calvary bags , they could of belonged to others that were not army. I guess as to your question where it came from, when one finds ore that matches it at it's source we'll know the answer of where the Dutchman mine is.
Roger
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Kochera's Gold - From Whence It Came

Post by Roger »

If Kochera's gold was from the 1870-1890 period and in cavalary saddle bags, what would be the possiblitities of its's origin? Here are a few of the individuals that are "known" to have found the mine that might match from Dutchman history:

1. Jacob Weiser: Weisner and Waltz were at the LDM in the mid 1870's as estimated by Tom Kollenborn. While Waltz was away, Weiser was attacked at the LDM mine or his and Jacob Waltz's camp and he was found by some Pima Indians along the Salt River and taken to Dr Walker for help. Could Weisner have been attacked by Indians when coming from the mine back to camp with a load of gold and in the ensuing chase his horse or enven a 2nd mount with a load of gold was seperated from him and later the Indians cut the ore off on Peters Mesa. Right time and the saddle bags could be correct.

2. Two Soldiers: In the summer of 1884 the two soldiers that mustered out of Ft. McDowell found the LDM and then went to the Silver King only to later be killed when they went back to stake their claim on the mine and work it. One of their bodies was found close to the Bark Ranch and another was up close to Bluff Springs Mtn. Bark claimed the one body near his ranch had been riding his horse hard as if chased and they backtracked the trail quite a ways into the Supers. Could the killer(s) have been in pursuit of the two soldiers and one of them lost their saddle bag of gold ore in the run? The time would be right and they would have certainly had calvary saddle bags at the time.

3. John Pipps: John was a comporary of Waltz and knew where the mine was located. He died in a well digging accident and it is doubtful he would have lost that big of a gold load.

4. John Deering: Found the mine and died shortly thereafter in a Silver King accident in 1885. Not likely he lost the gold either.

There is always the possiblity that another person found the mine and met a dark fate that left the gold up on the Mesa. These are a couple of possibilities - food for thought.

Roger
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Post by Peter »

Roger,

While your candidates for "losing" the saddlebag of ore intrigues and are logically thought out, I dont believe any of them are likely candidates .

I am also not convinced the saddlebag was "lost". Folks who know the "real" story of Kochera and where the saddlebag was found (not on the "Charlebois trail" as is commonly believed) know something out of the ordinary took place.
Roger
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Kochera's Gold - From Whence It Came???

Post by Roger »

I agree with you 100% that Kochera's gold was not found "on" the Charlebois Trail but some distance from it. From research, I know the exact location it was found. Ron Feldman documented some details of John Kochera finding his gold in the SMHS 1995 Volume 13 Journal and in his book, Zig Zag Canyon. A quote from the Journal article:

"Well, that's it," John announced at about 2:00PM the second day on the mesa. "We're out of waater and we have to get off this mountain tonight. The map shows a spring off the west side of Peter's Mesa down in what is called Chralebois Canyon. We can reach that easy enough tonight." ........ As he and Joe hurried toward the trail that led off the mesa and down into Charlebois, John spied something unusual in th brush at the base of a mesquite tree. "That looks like a piece of leather," he said. He pushed the thorny brush aside and reached the weathered and faded object. His first tug tore a sizeable piece of rotted leather from it and he knew he had found something very old. As he fought his way closer, he was able to get his hands under and around the object, lifting it out of the brush and into the open. It was a set of saddle bags. As John lowered the bags oto the ground, one ruptured and spilled its contents. They could not believe their eyes. About a dozen fist-sized chunks of white rock lay on the ground - chunks of white quartz streaked with gold. As they later discovered, these rotted saddle bags contained 24 pounds of ore that assayed $48,928 per ton (1962)."

If Ron was factual in his article, several conclusions could be drawn from it:

1. Kochera and Joe were up on Peter's Mesa.
2. They found the gold some distance off the trail.
3. The saddle bags were not burried but up under some brush against a mesquite tree. They might have been buried originally and eroded to the surface over 100+ years - the age of the mesquite tree would be a good clue as this being the case.
4. The saddle bag location was not significantly hidden as behind a boulder, next to a cliff, etc, as John was able to see them while walking.

The Mexicans working the LDM in the mid 1860's would have been using mules with special ore bags and not saddle bags as Kochera found. However, one of the Peralta Don's could have had such bags. Could Kochera distinguish between a Spanish saddle bag and a calvary bag? Who knows.

The one clear fact out of all of this is: Someone in the late 1800's had Dutchman ore in their posession and due to the gold being left behind, probably met a bad fate in the Supers.

Roger
Peter
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Post by Peter »

I agree with you that the folks who had possession of those saddlebags met a bad fate. But it wasnt in the Superstitions, and it wasnt until some years later.
Roger
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Intimations of ????

Post by Roger »

It appears that you are intimating one of two things:

1. The Kochera gold was taken from someone at a different location than the Supers and then depositied there in the saddle bags for reasons unkown.
2. Kochera did not find the gold in the Supers, but somewhere else.

The latter would not appear to pass common sense. Why would Kochera spend years of his life searching for the LDM from Peter's Mesa outward if he had found the gold in a different location.

Any enlightments on this???

Roger
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Post by Wiz »

Roger,
As I understand the story, the Kocheras got a map from a guy named Haywood. About 25 years earlier, Haywood and some other guys had gone into the Superstitions, found a cache, and made off with some of it. It could be that the saddlebags were dropped at this time. Then, Haywood gave the map to Kochera because he was never going back himself. Being (part?) Apache, Haywood knew he was in trouble if he did. About a year later, I believe Haywood died in a car wreck. Peter may be referring to this event. I don't have my reference materials with me so I'm going by memory, but I think I have it basically right.
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Post by Peter »

Please forgive my propensity for speaking in riddles regarding certain subjects...this just happens to be one of them.

While the Haywood story (he was a full-blooded Apache from San Carlos)
is pretty much true and the possiblity that the saddlebag belonged to Haywoods group and was lost by them on the trail is intriguing...it is not Haywoods group that I was refering to.

For Haywoods group to have recovered ( and a more apt definition would be "to have stolen") gold from the Superstitions, there would have had to have been someone who left it there originally.
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Haywood Origin of Kochera Gold

Post by Roger »

Ron Feldman in Zig Zag Canyon says that Haywood and 14 other Apache Indians in 1942 took out "hundreds of pounds of the richest gold ore you ever saw". The gold was to be used to send young Apaches to university. A few points around this possibility:

1. Kochera found the gold loaded saddle bags in 1962 which would be 20 years later than when Haywood took gold out of the Supers. A saddle bag either buried or out in the elements that long could have been weathered to the degree described by Kochera. This time frame is a fairly good fit.

2. The possiblity exists that someone in the Apache band that Haywood worked with could have tried to secretly hid one set of saddle bags for themselves and then later come back to retrieve it. For some reason that retirieval could have not taken place and thus created the find that Kochera stumbled upon. If the Apache's caught an Indian trying to steal some of the gold for themselves, the punishment may have been severe - example, one Indian shows up at the destination point missing a saddle bag of gold.

3. Even Kochera's Tribal Elder grandfather appeared to view that the Apaches were "stealing" the gold removed in 1914. In Ron's book he said "Right or wrong, under the white man's law, we did steal it". (Know Ron made some abstractions on these quotes!).

The "hard facts" around Kochera's gold would seem to be where it was found and that it was in high likelyhood, Dutchman ore.

Roger
Peter
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Post by Peter »

If you or anyone else beleive the ore was taken to send young Apache to a University...theres a bridge here in Brooklyn that I have the deed to..anyone want to buy it?

Apache, like any other race have their bad apples. However, in light of reservation conditions one can understand the motivations of this bunch that attempted to pirate away the ore. Whatever ore was found by Haywoods group was placed in that location where Haywood found it for a reason...and that reason had nothing to do with storing it for a rainy day, but involved cultural and deep religous significance. The reason Haywood fled AZ was because he knew he crossed the line and that certain traditionalist Apache would consider him and his group the worst sort of traitors. Rather than end up as ant bait, Haywood left for parts unknown...only to find that while he might be able to hide from the physical guardians of the site, the spiritual guardians had a long and deadly reach.
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Post by Wiz »

There are a few things that don't make sense about the whole massacre thing.
First, the general feeling seems to be that there were two massacres, one in the 1840's and another in the 1860's. As detailed in Tom Glover's book, the 1860's massacre seems fairly well documented by the accounts of the men who found a number of skeletons, one with dental work, and also some gold in a leather sack. However, I don't recall hearing about large numbers of skeletons being found to support the 1840's timeframe. Only the legends.
Another thing is the discarded saddlebags of gold. The stories say the Apache ate the mules and discarded the saddlebags of gold. This just doesn't ring true: for one thing, Apache spiritual beliefs entail returning gold to their god, and protecting it with spirit guardians. Religious beliefs do not just spring up overnight, so I can't understand why they would discard large amounts of milled gold. These weren't rocks with a little gold in them, they had been ground down to as pure of gold as could be done on-site. Second, if the Apache had cut the saddlebags loose, there would be a LOT more of them laying around, if the accounts of the size of the Peralta party are to be believed. Third, the Apache were not stupid. They knew what gold meant to the white men, and wouldn't have left it there to attract more of them to the mountains.

This tells me that they took the gold with them. What has been found here and there is what was inadvertantly lost on the way, or perhaps during the battle. It wasn't left deliberately by the Apache. They took it and stashed it somewhere. Maybe this is what Waltz found, or maybe he found a storage cave that hadn't been cleared out by the miners.

It seems like if you could precisely locate each old saddlebag or pile of gold that had been found, you could trace either the route of the battle or the route taken by the Apache as they made off with the loot.

This must have already occurred to many of you. Has anyone tried tracing this trail of gold? What did you come up with?
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Post by Peter »

Good post and you make many valid points.

A slight correction. When refering to the Apache you refer to "their God"
as if it was very different from our Judeo-Christian God. The Apache beleived in monotheism and whether you call God Yahweh, Jehovah, Jesus, Yeshua, or Ussen (the Apache name) we are talking about the same fella upstairs, methinks.

I have traced the trail of the ore/saddlebags in some detail. It lead somewhere east of the Massacre Grounds (and thats about all you are going to get out of me on the forum..lol).
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Post by Wiz »

Yeah. One problem is, though, are all the saddlebags of the same vintage? Which ones were coming and which were going? Too bad we don't have samples of the ore from each of those findings to test.

If you are of a religious nature, it might not be wise to equate all the gods into one: if it's not true, you might piss one of them off! The Hindus have tons of gods. The Catholics have three. Ussen might not like being lumped in with those guys.
Ron
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Peralta battle .. where did it start???

Post by Ron »

Listen to me one more time, Peter I fully respect your knowledge on the Dutchman , I challenge you to how well you knew Kochera, however. I probaly knew him better than anyone here. He did find the bags by the trail on Peter's Mesa, they were not found anywhere else. I have a sworn statement and a video interview with John Kochera stating that. I spent alot of time during a 20 year period with him. The speculation as how they got there will go on for ever, but John Kochera told me the truth of where they were found.
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Post by LDM »

Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Peter
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Post by Peter »

Hi Ron,

While I understand you were close to Kochera and fully respect that, I have in my possesion a copy of a letter from John Kochera (in his own handwriting) to another Dutch hunter where he specifies the location where he found the saddlebags. This location is not terribly far away from the Charlebois trail, but on the other hand, is not "right beside" the trail either. I may well be splitting hairs here and we might both be talking about the same area, but my info places the saddlebag location a short distance (in relative terms) from the Charlebois trail. Is "my " location on the Mesa? Yes..and no. Is the letter I posses a forgery? Or misinformation? Perhaps, but I do not believe so, knowing what else I know about the incident.

P
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Post by Peter »

Hi LDM,

In my very humble opinion, I beleive the soldiers were bushwacked as they camped near Bluff Spring on the way out of the mountains the second time. They were attacked by someone they trusted, who had accompanied them to the mine. One soldier was killed near Bluff Spring, the other, afoot, was chased by a mounted rider (probably through Barks Draw/Canyon) all the way to the Barkely Basin where he was finally caught and killed.

As there were 3 men leaving the LDM area with some ore, I do not think they would have left the saddlebag "besides a trail" due to weight considerations, etc... I simply dont buy into the theory that the saddlebags belonged to the soldiers. Also, remember, the soldiers were on foot as they went from Camp McDowell to the Silver King. Would you lug a heavy bulky saddlebag through that country on foot if you didnt have to?

I think there is a simpler and more logical explanation as to why Kochera found ore in that location.

P
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Post by Peter »

Wiz,

While I dont want to get into a religous debate, I dont think you would find a whole lot of Catholics (and I am baptised a Catholic, though am hardly a practicing one..much to my mother-in-laws chagrin...lol) that think there are 3 Gods...lol

Much of the Apache religion mirrors Christianity. Where the Christians have saints the Apache have their mountain Gans and lesser or greater spirits and ghosts. In fact, when the Apache were introduced to Christianity they took various parts of it that they liked (such as resurrection) and applied it to their own beleifs. Noche-del-Klinne' the Dreamer who was killed at Cibecue Creek preached that the dead Apache chiefs would rise and help the living if his followers danced the Apache version of the Ghost Dance.

One creepy anecdote has the chiefs rising from the ground and exhorting
the Apache to make peace with the whites because there were too many of the pindah likoye (white eyes). The Chihenne chief Nana was said to be a witness of this interesting event....
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