Jakes death
Jakes death
Dr glover, arumn, greg, novice, Joe, All; I am disgruntled over the people of Phinix treating the Jake like he was a poor relation when he was ill YET he had 50 lbs of gold and 160 acres of prime land and nine familes of mexi,s That he could have sold to anyone. I would say he was probley worth more money than almost all of Phinix. YET he was treated like a palper and they took up a collection to bury him. A first class funeral with old ladies a mourning him would only have cost 50.00 dollars. We know who stole his gold, Why wasn,t the theif made to return it? What happened to his land and mexi,s they were worth a bundle too. Jake helped to clear the real old canals of silt so they could be irrigate the land again. So his property was worth a hansome some even by the early standerds. What are u-a;ll,s thoughts on the subject!! bill
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Graffiti Wall
Another outstanding contribution to the Graffiti Wall straight from the Ribaudo Camp.
Go Joe Go!
Go Joe Go!
Jakes death
Redison; Other than your vindictive hatered of Joe R. What are you rattling on about?? B.J S. I am not Joe R. 
Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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Revenge?
Bill,
"Vindictive" (revengeful) was an interesting choice of words there. Since I doubt I have ever actually met this Hydra, I have to assume he has been brought to this point, by the truth.
The fact that I recognized him from his first post must have been galling.
My guess is that he is now having a little conversation with himself.
I did enjoy seeing Henty in his list of authors. It brought back memories of my (pre-teen) love of his children's books.
Funny how people without a clue, all seem to believe they can fool everyone else in the world, or in this case, on this forum. His only fans were Peter, Wiz, and a few others that he created himself.
Anyone who consciously decides to lie, in order to defend himself against the truth will get all that he deserves.
It has been interesting seeing someone destroy themselves, much like Wyatt Westwooki, but I did not imagine he would take it so far.
Time to let it go.
Respectfully,
Joe
"Vindictive" (revengeful) was an interesting choice of words there. Since I doubt I have ever actually met this Hydra, I have to assume he has been brought to this point, by the truth.
The fact that I recognized him from his first post must have been galling.
My guess is that he is now having a little conversation with himself.
I did enjoy seeing Henty in his list of authors. It brought back memories of my (pre-teen) love of his children's books.
Funny how people without a clue, all seem to believe they can fool everyone else in the world, or in this case, on this forum. His only fans were Peter, Wiz, and a few others that he created himself.
Anyone who consciously decides to lie, in order to defend himself against the truth will get all that he deserves.
It has been interesting seeing someone destroy themselves, much like Wyatt Westwooki, but I did not imagine he would take it so far.
Time to let it go.
Respectfully,
Joe
Re: Revenge?
Ah, Ribaudo must be bored. He's trying to start a fight with me again.Joe Ribaudo wrote:Funny how people without a clue, all seem to believe they can fool everyone else in the world, or in this case, on this forum. His only fans were Peter, Wiz, and a few others that he created himself.
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Constant Battle
Wiz,
There may be some truth in what you say, but the conversation has not been boring lately.
Our "fight" started a long time ago, and I suppose I am as much at fault as anyone else.
I try to just stick to the topics, but the arrows do seem to come from the bushes on a fairly regular basis. Defending yourself seems to out of style these days. I will try to confine myself to a defense from the major attacks, without responding to the "oblique" feints.
"Time to let it go."
Take care.
Respectfully,
Joe
There may be some truth in what you say, but the conversation has not been boring lately.
Our "fight" started a long time ago, and I suppose I am as much at fault as anyone else.
I try to just stick to the topics, but the arrows do seem to come from the bushes on a fairly regular basis. Defending yourself seems to out of style these days. I will try to confine myself to a defense from the major attacks, without responding to the "oblique" feints.
"Time to let it go."
Take care.
Respectfully,
Joe
bill711 poses an interesting question – or questions. Waltz’s land and property were nothing to sneeze at. It is true that many today feel that pioneer-era Phoenix treated Waltz like a pauper – or perceived him to be one. But, maybe that is only our perception today. An argument can be made to the contrary – that Waltz was not perceived that way at all during his time – except to a few perhaps.
The issue of the land should not be ignored. While in theory that property had value – but by the time of Waltz’s death I believe it did not belong to him anymore. In his first book Thomas Glover outlines Waltz’s fortunes – or reduction of them – and that of the Starrars. Basically, the perception the Starrars “bailed out” Waltz is the opposite of the truth. In fact Waltz bailed them out. The Starrar’s fortunes slowly dwindled during the last decades of the 1800s. Then in 1887 Waltz “signed away” his land in return for the “care” of the Starrars. A case can be made that what happened was that Waltz thought he was ill and might not make it. Yes, he signed away his land to “be taken care of.” But it was more to make sure the land passed to someone he wanted it to go to. Such arrangements were probably more common than we would think. Did the Starrars “care for” Waltz? Probably not. But the Starrars let Waltz continue to live on the land. However, as their fortunes continued to decline they began to sell off portions of their own land until none was left and they moved to Waltz’s land. And then they started selling off portions of it. By 1891 not much was probably left. Then the flood came along and destroyed any standing structures on the property – leaving only the property itself. When Waltz died, whatever was left belong to the Starrars.
So, perhaps all Waltz had was indeed what was under the bed in the back of Julia’s store. There are two camps: one that believes that the ore under the bed was given to Dick Holmes as a grub stake and one that thinks Holmes stole the money. Julia surely would have gone to the authorities to plead her case. If she did, nothing happened. Perhaps because Holmes had a good case himself that he did nothing illegal. I have heard that Holmes was “sued” in civil court in an effort to get the ore back. But again, nothing became of it if it did happen.
However, Waltz could indeed have paid for his own funeral having such ore. But, if he was not in control during his final days, he was at the mercy of others. We are then faced with a situation of greed on Julia’s part. Her actions at the time certainly can be perceived she had turned her back on Waltz. And he thus had a motive to shift his trust to someone else.
So, it all goes back to perception and the passage of time. It is hard to know what happened – let alone what people then perceived to be the truth.
The issue of the land should not be ignored. While in theory that property had value – but by the time of Waltz’s death I believe it did not belong to him anymore. In his first book Thomas Glover outlines Waltz’s fortunes – or reduction of them – and that of the Starrars. Basically, the perception the Starrars “bailed out” Waltz is the opposite of the truth. In fact Waltz bailed them out. The Starrar’s fortunes slowly dwindled during the last decades of the 1800s. Then in 1887 Waltz “signed away” his land in return for the “care” of the Starrars. A case can be made that what happened was that Waltz thought he was ill and might not make it. Yes, he signed away his land to “be taken care of.” But it was more to make sure the land passed to someone he wanted it to go to. Such arrangements were probably more common than we would think. Did the Starrars “care for” Waltz? Probably not. But the Starrars let Waltz continue to live on the land. However, as their fortunes continued to decline they began to sell off portions of their own land until none was left and they moved to Waltz’s land. And then they started selling off portions of it. By 1891 not much was probably left. Then the flood came along and destroyed any standing structures on the property – leaving only the property itself. When Waltz died, whatever was left belong to the Starrars.
So, perhaps all Waltz had was indeed what was under the bed in the back of Julia’s store. There are two camps: one that believes that the ore under the bed was given to Dick Holmes as a grub stake and one that thinks Holmes stole the money. Julia surely would have gone to the authorities to plead her case. If she did, nothing happened. Perhaps because Holmes had a good case himself that he did nothing illegal. I have heard that Holmes was “sued” in civil court in an effort to get the ore back. But again, nothing became of it if it did happen.
However, Waltz could indeed have paid for his own funeral having such ore. But, if he was not in control during his final days, he was at the mercy of others. We are then faced with a situation of greed on Julia’s part. Her actions at the time certainly can be perceived she had turned her back on Waltz. And he thus had a motive to shift his trust to someone else.
So, it all goes back to perception and the passage of time. It is hard to know what happened – let alone what people then perceived to be the truth.
S.C.,
There are also the possibilities that Julia's claim against Dick Holmes was not given a fair hearing because A) she was a black woman. This may have been a liability for her, given the times; B) she was known to be eccentric, with all the powder-burning and strange pseudo-religious activity.
The latter seems the more likely of the two. It's possible that her legal claim was just dismissed because she was perceived as a wacko. Her ticket-selling at Waltz's deathbed would not have looked good in any court proceedings concerning the disposition of his assets, either.
Just a thought.
There are also the possibilities that Julia's claim against Dick Holmes was not given a fair hearing because A) she was a black woman. This may have been a liability for her, given the times; B) she was known to be eccentric, with all the powder-burning and strange pseudo-religious activity.
The latter seems the more likely of the two. It's possible that her legal claim was just dismissed because she was perceived as a wacko. Her ticket-selling at Waltz's deathbed would not have looked good in any court proceedings concerning the disposition of his assets, either.
Just a thought.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Motives
Steve,
"However, Waltz could indeed have paid for his own funeral having such ore. But, if he was not in control during his final days, he was at the mercy of others. We are then faced with a situation of greed on Julia’s part. Her actions at the time certainly can be perceived she had turned her back on Waltz. And he thus had a motive to shift his trust to someone else."
No matter how well respected the source for Julia's "greed" and the implication that "she had turned her back on Waltz", it remains possible that there is no truth for either charge.
The history of the woman, up until the time of Waltz's death does not suggest she would be other than kind to him.
A "mulatto" unmarried business woman in that era, might be subject to a little resentment from the established white males of early Phoenix. We don't know who's toes she may have stepped on or who may have had a
grudge against her.
I will take the Bark/Ely assessment of the woman's character over any other.
Just how many of those established white males do you imagine would have backed Mr. Holmes over Julia? Consider the volume of lies which have been told about Jacob Waltz, probably an honest and decent man.
The possible motives behind the "story" of Julia's actions during the final hours of Jacob Waltz will never be known, for sure. You need to look at the woman's life before those final hours to determine if she might be someone who would sell tickets to the old man's deathbed.
Wiz,
Looks like we were both thinking along the same lines, somewhat. :) You got there first.
Respectfully,
Joe
"However, Waltz could indeed have paid for his own funeral having such ore. But, if he was not in control during his final days, he was at the mercy of others. We are then faced with a situation of greed on Julia’s part. Her actions at the time certainly can be perceived she had turned her back on Waltz. And he thus had a motive to shift his trust to someone else."
No matter how well respected the source for Julia's "greed" and the implication that "she had turned her back on Waltz", it remains possible that there is no truth for either charge.
The history of the woman, up until the time of Waltz's death does not suggest she would be other than kind to him.
A "mulatto" unmarried business woman in that era, might be subject to a little resentment from the established white males of early Phoenix. We don't know who's toes she may have stepped on or who may have had a
grudge against her.
I will take the Bark/Ely assessment of the woman's character over any other.
Just how many of those established white males do you imagine would have backed Mr. Holmes over Julia? Consider the volume of lies which have been told about Jacob Waltz, probably an honest and decent man.
The possible motives behind the "story" of Julia's actions during the final hours of Jacob Waltz will never be known, for sure. You need to look at the woman's life before those final hours to determine if she might be someone who would sell tickets to the old man's deathbed.
Wiz,
Looks like we were both thinking along the same lines, somewhat. :) You got there first.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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And Furthermore........
Steve,
One more thing: Just how greedy could Julia have been? There was more money than she had ever seen at one time, in a box under Waltz's bed. She believed that money was her's. Do you really believe she was selling tickets for the chump change she could have collected on Waltz's last day? How much "blood money" could she have made, fifty bucks?
Respectfully,
Joe
One more thing: Just how greedy could Julia have been? There was more money than she had ever seen at one time, in a box under Waltz's bed. She believed that money was her's. Do you really believe she was selling tickets for the chump change she could have collected on Waltz's last day? How much "blood money" could she have made, fifty bucks?
Respectfully,
Joe
Jakes death
WELL JOE; I cannot beleive that the Jake told Holmes where the mine was and then gave him 50 pounds of gold to find it and not even ask him to pay for his 50.00 funeral with it, YOU know burial,s were taken very seriously with the old folkes back then. I remember when the old folkes would want to go to town so they could pick out the casket and the head stone to be buried in. Back in Jakes time you could get a funeral deluxe for 50 buck,s that was with mourners too. I remember the old folkes paying on their cask and stone for years to pay it off. SEE Joe how well you can get along when you pooch your lips out and kiss and make up with people. NOW don,t you feel alot better now??? bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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No Lips
Bill,
I lost my lips in a bad fire a number of years ago. All my ass kissing has to be done by proxy now.
Respectfully,
Joe
I lost my lips in a bad fire a number of years ago. All my ass kissing has to be done by proxy now.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Over The Edge
Wiz,
I am not home now, but it seems to me that Bark/Ely said that Julia went over the edge sometime after Waltz's death. The story of what happened on the day he died may have had a little color added later.
I, obviously, think you made a pretty good call in your last post.
Respectfully,
Joe
I am not home now, but it seems to me that Bark/Ely said that Julia went over the edge sometime after Waltz's death. The story of what happened on the day he died may have had a little color added later.
I, obviously, think you made a pretty good call in your last post.
Respectfully,
Joe
Jakes Death
I don't have the expertise on this subject like everyone else here, but from the little I've read I always assumed that Julia did not know who took the gold. Was it ever revealed that Holmes took the gold before the manuscript was written by his son?
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Joe Ribaudo
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No Comment?
All,
I was pretty sure these comments would draw some response:
"One more thing: Just how greedy could Julia have been? There was more money than she had ever seen at one time, in a box under Waltz's bed. She believed that money was her's. Do you really believe she was selling tickets for the chump change she could have collected on Waltz's last day? How much "blood money" could she have made, fifty bucks?"
A lot of people have backed the "ticket" story as being true. Don't any of you have some answers for these questions? Does it seem logical to believe Thomas was selling those "tickets"?
Ely says: "She grew somewhat flighty in her last years.....", and yet some have suggested that she was doing her "voodoo" act while Waltz was dying. (Emphisis in bold by Joe) How long will it take before we read that pigs were flying through Phoenix on the day Waltz died?
Respectfully,
Joe
I was pretty sure these comments would draw some response:
"One more thing: Just how greedy could Julia have been? There was more money than she had ever seen at one time, in a box under Waltz's bed. She believed that money was her's. Do you really believe she was selling tickets for the chump change she could have collected on Waltz's last day? How much "blood money" could she have made, fifty bucks?"
A lot of people have backed the "ticket" story as being true. Don't any of you have some answers for these questions? Does it seem logical to believe Thomas was selling those "tickets"?
Ely says: "She grew somewhat flighty in her last years.....", and yet some have suggested that she was doing her "voodoo" act while Waltz was dying. (Emphisis in bold by Joe) How long will it take before we read that pigs were flying through Phoenix on the day Waltz died?
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Holmes Camp
Without the "ticket story", we have to conjure-up another reason for Waltz to give Holmes those directions to his mine and the box of gold under the bed. Perhaps Julia burned Jacob's toast that morning.
If the story does not fit, its (probably) a bunch of bullshit.
Defending, or supporting this story does not seem to be important to the "Holmes Camp". Without a reason the entire Holmes story just falls into the realm of good fiction.
Respectfully,
Joe
If the story does not fit, its (probably) a bunch of bullshit.
Defending, or supporting this story does not seem to be important to the "Holmes Camp". Without a reason the entire Holmes story just falls into the realm of good fiction.
Respectfully,
Joe
Helen,s olber list
Well Joe; I was thinking that Holmes waited and finnally got his WISH with old Jake; He had waited years for the oppertunity that he had that nite! I just wonder if the Jake actually did die or was........ 
bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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One Weak Moment
Bill,
I believe Holmes was an honorable man, who had one weak moment, and took the gold from under Jacob's bed. After that, he had to explain how his sudden wealth, and get out from under Julia's accusations.
That first bad decision and the lies required to sustain the fiction, never ended. He could not even tell Brownie the truth. Just an opinion, but I believe he carried it to his grave.
In those days, there were few rules when dealing with Indians, Mexicans, Chinese or black people. Justification, for any act, came easily.
Respectfully,
Joe
I believe Holmes was an honorable man, who had one weak moment, and took the gold from under Jacob's bed. After that, he had to explain how his sudden wealth, and get out from under Julia's accusations.
That first bad decision and the lies required to sustain the fiction, never ended. He could not even tell Brownie the truth. Just an opinion, but I believe he carried it to his grave.
In those days, there were few rules when dealing with Indians, Mexicans, Chinese or black people. Justification, for any act, came easily.
Respectfully,
Joe
Helen,s List
Well Joe; I am not kin to the Holmes or anything. What happened way back when would not reflect in any way on the present Holmes as far as I am concerned. BUT I beleive the Corbin,s book on what the Holmes said about himself and what he did or tried todo to the Jake When the phipp,s told him about the Jake,s mine, I don,t think the Phipp,s would have trusted him after seeing his reaction to his story. THEREBY Holmes showed his true character! He was a sneaking theif! He plotted from day-1 against the Jake. I think him and his cronies were responsible for the all consuming lies told about the Jake too! How did he get to know about the gold under the bed? When was jake and the Holmes ever even halfassed cronies? I think he spent the last few minutes of the Jakes life trying to get info about the mine from him. I don,t think the Jake would have told Holmes anything at all except under duress! Here is a man dying under duress, barly able to talk and all he wanted to do was give his former foe a condeeming cofession and his gold to help him find his mine after his secretcy of 40 yrs? He didn,t even ask him to see abt. his burial even. If the Jake actually gave him the gold why did he keep it a secret? Why did he slip it out the back door secretly? AND then to proceed to trash the Jakes name publicly. I beleive the Holmes was no good. Bill
Bill