I've been going over the sources I have at hand trying to find out more about where John Chuning had his permanent camp. I checked the Berry Storm account of the two soldiers to see if he mentioned Chuning. He did not, but at the end of his chapter on the two soldiers, He mentions a miner by the name of Phipps and a story that sounds like a shortened and perhaps perverted account of the Joe Deering story.
The quote from Storm reads: "Again, a short time later, a Superior miner named Phipps, said that he had successfully backtracked the two ex-soldiers to the source of their bonanza ore. ......... But Phipps never lived to enjoy it. When he went down into his own shaft near Superior after tools with which to open up his new found bonanza, an unexpeplained cave-in killed him." (Thunder Gods Gold - page 72)
I'm curious if anyone knows of other references to this Phipps character (Storm gives no refs), or if Storm might have gotten his stories and names mixed up?
Who is Phipps?
John Phipps And The LDM
The Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journals have covered the John Phipps story several times over the past 20 yrs. Suggest you look into the following journal issues and the referenced articles. The journals can be purchased on line from the SMHS:
Volume 4, 1985: "John Phipps And The Soldiers' Lost Mine" by Tom Kollenborn. Pages 37 to38.
Volume 13, 1995: "Pipps, 'Dutch' John Mond, and The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine" by Greg Davis. Pages 34 to 36. This article pulls from Brownie Holmes' unpublished LDM manuscript that can also be purchased from SMHS.
Volume 14, 1996. "John Monk Pipps and Round Valley Revisted" by Greg Davis. Pages 39 to 43. This is a follow-on article to the Volume 13 article where Greg and Dr. Thomas Glover visit the location where Pipps was supposed to have been buried by a cave in of a well he was digging.
Good Luck!!
Roger
Volume 4, 1985: "John Phipps And The Soldiers' Lost Mine" by Tom Kollenborn. Pages 37 to38.
Volume 13, 1995: "Pipps, 'Dutch' John Mond, and The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine" by Greg Davis. Pages 34 to 36. This article pulls from Brownie Holmes' unpublished LDM manuscript that can also be purchased from SMHS.
Volume 14, 1996. "John Monk Pipps and Round Valley Revisted" by Greg Davis. Pages 39 to 43. This is a follow-on article to the Volume 13 article where Greg and Dr. Thomas Glover visit the location where Pipps was supposed to have been buried by a cave in of a well he was digging.
Good Luck!!
Roger
Roger,
Thanks for your reply. I would like to purchase the past articles of the journal, but I did not find the website for the SMHS on the google or yahoo search engines. I found the website of the Superstition Mountain Museum, but did not see a link to the journal. Could you help me out with the web address? Thanks, Sluicebox
Thanks for your reply. I would like to purchase the past articles of the journal, but I did not find the website for the SMHS on the google or yahoo search engines. I found the website of the Superstition Mountain Museum, but did not see a link to the journal. Could you help me out with the web address? Thanks, Sluicebox
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Joe Ribaudo
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Barry Storm
Sluicebox,
You have an early edition of "Thunder Gods' Gold".
By the time the "Revised, Enlarged Edition", published in 1953, came out, the Phipps story had disappeared. The first question that comes to mind, is why? Seems like an interesting story, and another piece of "proof".
I have a first edition of "Trail of the Lost Dutchman", Copyright 1939, and the Phipps story is right there on pages 71 and 72. Short Quote: "I seen a fortune in sight."
In a "Treasure Trail Edition" #176 (1st printing: June, 1945), the name has changed to "Thunder Gods Gold", it is a larger, hard back book, and the Phipps story has moved to the bottom of page 72. Short quote: "I seen a cool million dollars in sight!".
I believe it is a safe bet that Barry Storm was the first to write about the story of John Phipps.
As time passed, so did the name and the story. Phipps became Pipps and he went from "When he went down into his own shaft near Supreior after tools with which to open up his new-found bonanza, an unexplained cave-in killed him.", as per Barry Storm to "The cowboys established their camp one evening on the bank of a creek and Pippps, in his usual industrious manner, set about digging the sand from the side of the deep water hole......", as per Brownie Holmes/Dr.Glover to "Pipps was later buried alive when a well he was digging on a ranch in the Mazatzal Mountains caved-in", as per Dr. Glover/Brownie Holmes.
Like many stories concerning the LDM, this one has a life of it's own. I would like to see one scrap of evidence that the man ever existed, other
than in the fertile imagination of Barry Storm. If he had a claim "near Superior", there should be some documentation that he existed.
Dr. Glover attempted to find anything of record for the man. He found nothing.
If I were going to pursue this line of research, the first thing I would do, is look for evidence that John Phipps/Pipps actually existed in the time frame and places mentioned in the stories.
Respectfully,
Joe
You have an early edition of "Thunder Gods' Gold".
By the time the "Revised, Enlarged Edition", published in 1953, came out, the Phipps story had disappeared. The first question that comes to mind, is why? Seems like an interesting story, and another piece of "proof".
I have a first edition of "Trail of the Lost Dutchman", Copyright 1939, and the Phipps story is right there on pages 71 and 72. Short Quote: "I seen a fortune in sight."
In a "Treasure Trail Edition" #176 (1st printing: June, 1945), the name has changed to "Thunder Gods Gold", it is a larger, hard back book, and the Phipps story has moved to the bottom of page 72. Short quote: "I seen a cool million dollars in sight!".
I believe it is a safe bet that Barry Storm was the first to write about the story of John Phipps.
As time passed, so did the name and the story. Phipps became Pipps and he went from "When he went down into his own shaft near Supreior after tools with which to open up his new-found bonanza, an unexplained cave-in killed him.", as per Barry Storm to "The cowboys established their camp one evening on the bank of a creek and Pippps, in his usual industrious manner, set about digging the sand from the side of the deep water hole......", as per Brownie Holmes/Dr.Glover to "Pipps was later buried alive when a well he was digging on a ranch in the Mazatzal Mountains caved-in", as per Dr. Glover/Brownie Holmes.
Like many stories concerning the LDM, this one has a life of it's own. I would like to see one scrap of evidence that the man ever existed, other
than in the fertile imagination of Barry Storm. If he had a claim "near Superior", there should be some documentation that he existed.
Dr. Glover attempted to find anything of record for the man. He found nothing.
If I were going to pursue this line of research, the first thing I would do, is look for evidence that John Phipps/Pipps actually existed in the time frame and places mentioned in the stories.
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe, thanks for your reply.
I was wondering if it was the same Pipps as in the Holmes Manuscript, but I didn't want to jump to that conclusion without checking it out further. Seems as though there are a lot of mis-spellings of names, or name changes associated with a lot of LDM personalities. The Barry Storm account made me a little suspicious of the story because it had a very strong Joe Deering ring to it considering that Phipps backtracked the two soldires to find the mine, and died in a mineshaft accident.
In the Barry Storm account, Phipps is also quoted as saying "It's less than two miles from Weaver's Needle toward the river." That seems like a pretty strong statement to put into print from a source that has no documentation. If I thought that statement was credible, it would cut my search territory down considerably. Not that documenting Phipps' existance would make the statement true, but it would be better than coming from a ghost. I was interested in reading the articles mentioned because I had hoped they might lend some credibility to the Storm account, or help me establish whether it was the same John Pipps. Storm didn't give a first name in the edition I have.
I started out looking for more information on where John Chuning was searching and I ended up chasing the ghost of John Pipps. I guss that's just the nature of LDM research. I'll probably put this one on the back burner for the time being, but it's on my follow up list. Thanks for the scoop.
Regards, Sluicebox
I was wondering if it was the same Pipps as in the Holmes Manuscript, but I didn't want to jump to that conclusion without checking it out further. Seems as though there are a lot of mis-spellings of names, or name changes associated with a lot of LDM personalities. The Barry Storm account made me a little suspicious of the story because it had a very strong Joe Deering ring to it considering that Phipps backtracked the two soldires to find the mine, and died in a mineshaft accident.
In the Barry Storm account, Phipps is also quoted as saying "It's less than two miles from Weaver's Needle toward the river." That seems like a pretty strong statement to put into print from a source that has no documentation. If I thought that statement was credible, it would cut my search territory down considerably. Not that documenting Phipps' existance would make the statement true, but it would be better than coming from a ghost. I was interested in reading the articles mentioned because I had hoped they might lend some credibility to the Storm account, or help me establish whether it was the same John Pipps. Storm didn't give a first name in the edition I have.
I started out looking for more information on where John Chuning was searching and I ended up chasing the ghost of John Pipps. I guss that's just the nature of LDM research. I'll probably put this one on the back burner for the time being, but it's on my follow up list. Thanks for the scoop.
Regards, Sluicebox
phipps gold
I beleive I read the acct about Phipps in the curse of the dutchmans gold by Helen corbin. Phipps mentions the mine to Holmes. Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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No Mas
Aurum,
"Joe is, as always, correct in his statement that the true beating is directed toward the foundation of statements and not intended to beat down the author personally."
"I'll begin by taking my beating on this right off the bat because there is no iron clad documented legal paper that I can point to that will prove what I am about to say. My accounting of the Phipps story comes first hand from a source who knew John Phipps and the circumstances surrounding this story." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
No one is "always correct", but I do make the attempt.
You have sourced your story and, giving us the benifit of your own research, have told us there are no documents to back it up. There is nothing to attack here.
It is the presentation of "facts" which lead to attempts to verify the truthfullness of a story. You, personally, can't take a "beating", because you have made an honest attempt to give us both sides of the story. (All of the cards are on the table) We have nowhere to go except to research it on our own.
Respectfully,
Joe
"Joe is, as always, correct in his statement that the true beating is directed toward the foundation of statements and not intended to beat down the author personally."
"I'll begin by taking my beating on this right off the bat because there is no iron clad documented legal paper that I can point to that will prove what I am about to say. My accounting of the Phipps story comes first hand from a source who knew John Phipps and the circumstances surrounding this story." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
No one is "always correct", but I do make the attempt.
You have sourced your story and, giving us the benifit of your own research, have told us there are no documents to back it up. There is nothing to attack here.
It is the presentation of "facts" which lead to attempts to verify the truthfullness of a story. You, personally, can't take a "beating", because you have made an honest attempt to give us both sides of the story. (All of the cards are on the table) We have nowhere to go except to research it on our own.
Respectfully,
Joe
Aurum,
as always, there is a lot of interesting information in your post. However, I am still a little perplexed about the existance of single John Phipps or Pipps that fits all of the information and stories. The essence of all of the Pipps tales is that he knew the location of the mine, but died BEFORE he could lead Dick Holmes to it or claim it for himself. If your information is correct on the date of his death, then not only could he have shown Dick Holmes where the mine was, but he could have shown Brownie Holmes as well. The story in the Holmes Manuscript indicates that Pipps was 60 years old in 1884 when he talked with Dick Holmes. If he was born in 1847 he would have only been 37 years old in 1884. Is it possible that we are talking about a father or a relative with the same name as in the 1884 account? His death prior to the death of the Dutchman is the focal point of the whole story as it relates to him not being able to guide Dick Holmes to the mine. Considering that the story tellers in this case have so easily mixed up Pipps and his partner John Monk, is it also possible that they have confused a father, a relative or a "different" Phipps or Pipps with the one who died around 1916? This seems to be one of those cases where more information = more confusion. Any thoughts on this apparent dilemma? Regards, Sluicebox
as always, there is a lot of interesting information in your post. However, I am still a little perplexed about the existance of single John Phipps or Pipps that fits all of the information and stories. The essence of all of the Pipps tales is that he knew the location of the mine, but died BEFORE he could lead Dick Holmes to it or claim it for himself. If your information is correct on the date of his death, then not only could he have shown Dick Holmes where the mine was, but he could have shown Brownie Holmes as well. The story in the Holmes Manuscript indicates that Pipps was 60 years old in 1884 when he talked with Dick Holmes. If he was born in 1847 he would have only been 37 years old in 1884. Is it possible that we are talking about a father or a relative with the same name as in the 1884 account? His death prior to the death of the Dutchman is the focal point of the whole story as it relates to him not being able to guide Dick Holmes to the mine. Considering that the story tellers in this case have so easily mixed up Pipps and his partner John Monk, is it also possible that they have confused a father, a relative or a "different" Phipps or Pipps with the one who died around 1916? This seems to be one of those cases where more information = more confusion. Any thoughts on this apparent dilemma? Regards, Sluicebox
Phipps Info
Sluicebox,
I suggest you either email the Superstition Mtn Museum at [email protected] or call them at 480-983-4888 to see how to obtain back copies of the SMHS journal. They used to sell them before they moved to the new museum site so they are probably still available.
Additional Notes on John W. Phipps:
John W. Phipps was born in Kennerdell, Venango County, PA, in 1847. His father was Robert Phipps and his mother was Ann Rieger Cavan. John W. was never married. John died in Prescott, AZ, on April 16, 1876, as Arumn indicated. He body was shipped back to Penn. and he was buried in the Calvert Riddle Cemetary in Clinton, Venango County, PA.
John was a real person and did spend a lot of his life in Arizona.
Roger[/u]
I suggest you either email the Superstition Mtn Museum at [email protected] or call them at 480-983-4888 to see how to obtain back copies of the SMHS journal. They used to sell them before they moved to the new museum site so they are probably still available.
Additional Notes on John W. Phipps:
John W. Phipps was born in Kennerdell, Venango County, PA, in 1847. His father was Robert Phipps and his mother was Ann Rieger Cavan. John W. was never married. John died in Prescott, AZ, on April 16, 1876, as Arumn indicated. He body was shipped back to Penn. and he was buried in the Calvert Riddle Cemetary in Clinton, Venango County, PA.
John was a real person and did spend a lot of his life in Arizona.
Roger[/u]
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Large Familes
Aurum,
Roger is on the money, except that John's mother's name was Ann Reiger CANAN. John had 11 siblings. Robert, John's father, came from a little group of 13 children born to John Phipps and Catherine Haney. Kind of surprising our guy never married, or maybe not.
The records on this family are screwed up seven ways from Sunday.
He existed, now what's the real story?
Respectfully,
Joe
Roger is on the money, except that John's mother's name was Ann Reiger CANAN. John had 11 siblings. Robert, John's father, came from a little group of 13 children born to John Phipps and Catherine Haney. Kind of surprising our guy never married, or maybe not.
The records on this family are screwed up seven ways from Sunday.
He existed, now what's the real story?
Respectfully,
Joe
John Phipps History
Joe is correct on John Phipps mother's last name being Canan and not "Canvan". I fat fingered that spelling but had it correct in my notes. Thanks for the catch.
I found the Phipps family history on the LDS Geneology website by entering John Phipps with about 200 hits. Then had to sort through until one that died in Arizona in the correct time frame was found. Here is the web site:
http://www.familysearch.org/
I think many of you know of this site.
Roger
I found the Phipps family history on the LDS Geneology website by entering John Phipps with about 200 hits. Then had to sort through until one that died in Arizona in the correct time frame was found. Here is the web site:
http://www.familysearch.org/
I think many of you know of this site.
Roger
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Joe Ribaudo
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Who's Who?
Aurum,
I used another site to locate the information on John Phipps but in truth,
It was easy to prove he existed.
There are too many names attached to this legend, and the story comes from a manuscript that the "author" denies writing. Of course, he must have lied. If he did write it, how did Charles Higham end up with it?
Too many explanations of what could have happened are required to plug up the huge holes in this story.
I agree that there is a grain of truth in this story. The real question is, does the grain rest with Phipps, Pipps or Monk?
I believe this story was first published by Barry Storm in "Trail of the Lost Dutchman", Copyright 1939. He gives no source for the story. It might be interesting to know if he got the information from Brownie Holmes, Charles Higham or someone else. Is it possible that the story traveled from Barry Storm to Charles Higham and thus made it into the "questionable" manuscript?
I believe it is possible that the "Holmes Manuscript" originated, completely or partially, with Charles Higham. The entire manuscript is full of "tall stories" especially where they concern Jacob Waltz. Brownie would have known better.
"So much that is inaccurate has appeared in periodicals throughout the country that I have decided to set matters right by giving a detailed account of the happenings over many years, which provides the documentation for its very existence." (Brownie's introduction to the manuscript) What follows is an interesting (loosely historical) novel.
You guys have done a great job with John Phipps. That seems to be the end of that trail. Now for Pipps and Monk. Who had their hand in Jacob"s pocket?
Lots of opinion here.
Respectfully,
Joe
I used another site to locate the information on John Phipps but in truth,
It was easy to prove he existed.
There are too many names attached to this legend, and the story comes from a manuscript that the "author" denies writing. Of course, he must have lied. If he did write it, how did Charles Higham end up with it?
Too many explanations of what could have happened are required to plug up the huge holes in this story.
I agree that there is a grain of truth in this story. The real question is, does the grain rest with Phipps, Pipps or Monk?
I believe this story was first published by Barry Storm in "Trail of the Lost Dutchman", Copyright 1939. He gives no source for the story. It might be interesting to know if he got the information from Brownie Holmes, Charles Higham or someone else. Is it possible that the story traveled from Barry Storm to Charles Higham and thus made it into the "questionable" manuscript?
I believe it is possible that the "Holmes Manuscript" originated, completely or partially, with Charles Higham. The entire manuscript is full of "tall stories" especially where they concern Jacob Waltz. Brownie would have known better.
"So much that is inaccurate has appeared in periodicals throughout the country that I have decided to set matters right by giving a detailed account of the happenings over many years, which provides the documentation for its very existence." (Brownie's introduction to the manuscript) What follows is an interesting (loosely historical) novel.
You guys have done a great job with John Phipps. That seems to be the end of that trail. Now for Pipps and Monk. Who had their hand in Jacob"s pocket?
Lots of opinion here.
Respectfully,
Joe
who is phipps?
Joe how is Higham pronounced? is it Hig-ham or High-yam? I have come across this name alot. Bill 
Roger, Thanks for the phone number to the Museum, I'll give them a call tomorrow. I think the past issues of the Journal may have a lot more info I'de be interested in. Thanks for the website also, I didn't know about it.
All,
I'm trying to follow along here, but I'm still a little befuddled about the dates of Phipps' death, and who it was that died when? The 1916 date seems too late because you would think that Dick or Brownie would still be hounding this guy to fulfill his promise to partner up with Dick as promised. On the other hand, if he died in 1876, that seems way to early as he was supposed to have had the conversation with Dick in the mid to late 1880's.
If I read Joe's last post correctly, grandpaws name was also John. Perhaps Dick had his conversation with the grandfather of the John Phipps that died in 1916. If grandpaw was born in let's say 1828, then he would have been about 60 (as Brownie remembered it) in 1888 when the conversation took place. Of course I'm just speculating here, trying to make the above dates make some sense. I guess that wouldn't give grandpaw too much time to have children that had children by 1847 though. Oh well, just a thought. Perhaps I should get to researching my speculation a little more before I stick my foot in my mouth any further. It's interesting that both dates of death are on April 16 but in different years. Regards, Sluicebox
All,
I'm trying to follow along here, but I'm still a little befuddled about the dates of Phipps' death, and who it was that died when? The 1916 date seems too late because you would think that Dick or Brownie would still be hounding this guy to fulfill his promise to partner up with Dick as promised. On the other hand, if he died in 1876, that seems way to early as he was supposed to have had the conversation with Dick in the mid to late 1880's.
If I read Joe's last post correctly, grandpaws name was also John. Perhaps Dick had his conversation with the grandfather of the John Phipps that died in 1916. If grandpaw was born in let's say 1828, then he would have been about 60 (as Brownie remembered it) in 1888 when the conversation took place. Of course I'm just speculating here, trying to make the above dates make some sense. I guess that wouldn't give grandpaw too much time to have children that had children by 1847 though. Oh well, just a thought. Perhaps I should get to researching my speculation a little more before I stick my foot in my mouth any further. It's interesting that both dates of death are on April 16 but in different years. Regards, Sluicebox
Sorry about the run on in that last post guys. Sincere apologies. I guess I'm just a little slow these days. I didn't realize that the 1876 date of death was a typo. I just visited the website that Roger posted and tried to find a John Phipps with that date of death and got no results. I also see that grandpa John also died in 1833 so that theory didn't hold water either. I guess if I'm going to try to be quick on the draw, I should load my gun first.
Regards, Sluicebox
Regards, Sluicebox
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Uncle John
Sluicebox,
John Phipps (Grandpaw) was born in 1765 and died in 1833. He maried Catherine Haney who was born in 1773 and also died in 1833.
They had 11 or 12 children, possibly 13. Robert, who was born in 1809 had a brother who was born in 1804 or 1806 and was named John Phipps.
There were six sisters and at least 5 brothers.
I will have to go back and find the John who was born in 1828.
Robert Phipps had two brothers who each had sons they named John.
David Phipps, born in 1793, had a son he named John in 1828.
The other brother, Joseph, named his first son John in 1835.
My information comes from Ancestry.com
Respectfully,
Joe
John Phipps (Grandpaw) was born in 1765 and died in 1833. He maried Catherine Haney who was born in 1773 and also died in 1833.
They had 11 or 12 children, possibly 13. Robert, who was born in 1809 had a brother who was born in 1804 or 1806 and was named John Phipps.
There were six sisters and at least 5 brothers.
I will have to go back and find the John who was born in 1828.
Robert Phipps had two brothers who each had sons they named John.
David Phipps, born in 1793, had a son he named John in 1828.
The other brother, Joseph, named his first son John in 1835.
My information comes from Ancestry.com
Respectfully,
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
John Phipps LDS Geneology
Sluicebox, here is how to find John W. Phipps on the LDS Geneology site. Enter the following parameters and hit search and Phipps will come up as the No. 1 hit.
Name: John Phipps
Event: Death/Burial
Country: United States
State: Arizona
Roger
Name: John Phipps
Event: Death/Burial
Country: United States
State: Arizona
Roger
Joe, thanks for the website, I was going to ask where you were getting all the brother and sister info. I was looking for a John that would have been born around the 1828 date because that would fit with Brownie's memory of the conversation with Dick. Its kind of tuff to put a good jig saw puzzle together when you don't have all the pieces, or your pieces have the right shape but turn out to be the wrong color. Thanks again for the website. Regards, Sluicebox
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Joe Ribaudo
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Explanations
Sluicebox,
If you find a piece of the puzzle that's the wrong color, someone will come along with an explanation that will change that color to whatever you need.
I believe that Aurum has the only story which can be believed, and it's got some problems of it's own.
The real problem, is the passage of time and that you are looking at a story that has been told a thousand (+ or -)
times. Each rendition may only change by a fraction of a word, but rest assured, it's nowhere near the original "facts", assuming there were any
to begin with.
The bigest lie ever told, told enough times, starts to have a ring of truth to it. It can, and will, be believed by family, friends, partners, pioneers and historians. Who knows with this story? We don't even know, for sure, which of the three men was the real perp.
Respectfully,
Joe
If you find a piece of the puzzle that's the wrong color, someone will come along with an explanation that will change that color to whatever you need.
I believe that Aurum has the only story which can be believed, and it's got some problems of it's own.
The real problem, is the passage of time and that you are looking at a story that has been told a thousand (+ or -)times. Each rendition may only change by a fraction of a word, but rest assured, it's nowhere near the original "facts", assuming there were any
to begin with.
The bigest lie ever told, told enough times, starts to have a ring of truth to it. It can, and will, be believed by family, friends, partners, pioneers and historians. Who knows with this story? We don't even know, for sure, which of the three men was the real perp.
Respectfully,
Joe
Roger,
thanks for the tip. I did find John W in my search of birth date ranges + or - 20 years. He was third in the list. Its interesting that 4 others in that list don't have death information.
Joe,
I agree that Aurum and Roger probably have found the piece of the puzzle that fits the cut out here, even if the color seems a little off. Thanks to the generous input and research advise from the members of this forum, I think I'm finally starting to get a border around my own LDM Puzzle. It's just all these middle pieces that are tough to fit.
Regards, Sluicebox
thanks for the tip. I did find John W in my search of birth date ranges + or - 20 years. He was third in the list. Its interesting that 4 others in that list don't have death information.
Joe,
I agree that Aurum and Roger probably have found the piece of the puzzle that fits the cut out here, even if the color seems a little off. Thanks to the generous input and research advise from the members of this forum, I think I'm finally starting to get a border around my own LDM Puzzle. It's just all these middle pieces that are tough to fit.
Regards, Sluicebox
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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Conclusions?
Aurum,
You said:
"John W. Phipps is definitely the man who appears in Brownie Holmes account as the miner who visited his father ( Dick Holmes) at the Holmes ranch in Bloody Basin and told him the story of following Jacob Waltz to his mine in the Superstition mountains . There is some credibility to the Brownie Holmes account because he got the name right and also Phipps was a sometimes partner with John Woodson who was also a longtime mining associate of both Richard Holmes Sr. and Dick Holmes."
(Emphasis in bold by Joe)
You may need to reread the "Pipps" story in the Holmes Manuscript. It seems to me, that his using "Pipps" instead of "Phipps" actually removes some of the "credibility" from the story.
While there are some elements of truth in the story, they really don't stretch as far as the LDM part.
The "fact" that Barry Storm was probably the first to "print" the story, and the "fact" that he later neglected to put it into "Thunder God's Gold"
seems suspicious. The story just needed to be fleshed-out a little. That would have been right up Storm's alley. Someone else did flesh it out and managed to mangle the name in the process. Why did Storm drag his feet here?
Since the Holmes Manuscript was placed in the Arizona State Library sometime in the early fifties, and did not see the light of day until the early seventies, it seems that it was a Storm exclusive.
Higham said that he believed the manuscript was "worthless at best and possibly a fake" p. viii "Part 2: The Holmes Manuscript" by, Dr. Glover
How did Holmes "lose" his manuscript and how did Higham find it?
Unless there is a document where Brownie sold or gave away his rights to the manuscript, wouldn't he have had legal rights until his death in 1980?
Did he deny he was the author right up to his death?
If I were searching for the LDM, I would assume the story was true, and check it out.
Bill,
I don't know for sure how the name is pronounced, but I would pronounce it, Higum.
Respectfully,
Joe
You said:
"John W. Phipps is definitely the man who appears in Brownie Holmes account as the miner who visited his father ( Dick Holmes) at the Holmes ranch in Bloody Basin and told him the story of following Jacob Waltz to his mine in the Superstition mountains . There is some credibility to the Brownie Holmes account because he got the name right and also Phipps was a sometimes partner with John Woodson who was also a longtime mining associate of both Richard Holmes Sr. and Dick Holmes."
(Emphasis in bold by Joe)
You may need to reread the "Pipps" story in the Holmes Manuscript. It seems to me, that his using "Pipps" instead of "Phipps" actually removes some of the "credibility" from the story.
While there are some elements of truth in the story, they really don't stretch as far as the LDM part.
The "fact" that Barry Storm was probably the first to "print" the story, and the "fact" that he later neglected to put it into "Thunder God's Gold"
seems suspicious. The story just needed to be fleshed-out a little. That would have been right up Storm's alley. Someone else did flesh it out and managed to mangle the name in the process. Why did Storm drag his feet here?
Since the Holmes Manuscript was placed in the Arizona State Library sometime in the early fifties, and did not see the light of day until the early seventies, it seems that it was a Storm exclusive.
Higham said that he believed the manuscript was "worthless at best and possibly a fake" p. viii "Part 2: The Holmes Manuscript" by, Dr. Glover
How did Holmes "lose" his manuscript and how did Higham find it?
Unless there is a document where Brownie sold or gave away his rights to the manuscript, wouldn't he have had legal rights until his death in 1980?
Did he deny he was the author right up to his death?
If I were searching for the LDM, I would assume the story was true, and check it out.
Bill,
I don't know for sure how the name is pronounced, but I would pronounce it, Higum.
Respectfully,
Joe