My questions actually concern "The Great Register of Maricopa County" but it is related to Jacob's Citizenship papers.
My interest in Jacob's citizenship papers spring from a couple of observations.
The papers are mentioned in the Bark account with relationship to Hermann Petrasch.
Jacob seems to have been very careful with them during his life.
The image in my mind of the 1891 flood, gives me pause as to how his citizenship papers survived, but that's another subject.
In Hayden's Biography of Jacob, he states
"the name of Jacob Waltz appears on the Great Register of Maricopa County for 1876, 1882 and 1886 as a resident of Phoenix, born in Germany, aged 66, 72 and 76; the Great Register also indicates that he was naturalized as an American citizen on July 19, 1861 at Los Angeles, California in the Court for the First District."
In addition, Dr. Glover records Waltz appearing in the 1872 and the 1890 Register.
It appears to me that Jacob had to produce his citizenship papers (at least once) that allowed him to vote in Arizona elections?
Would he have had to do produce his citizenship papers each time he voted or was it only recorded in the Register once? In what year or years did the reference to his citizenship papers show up?
Perhaps someone who has laid eyeballs on the Register can help me.
Were there other elections recorded in the Register that Jacob didn't vote in?
What kind of detail information was recorded in the Register regarding someone who was not born in the U.S?
Did the voter reveal his political party? Bicknell notes that Jacob was a strong Republican and one of his missions in life was to be sure and vote.
For a U. S. born voter, does the Register only record their name, age and residence?
I would love to examine the Register myself but I'm a thousand miles from Phoenix, so any help will be appreciated.
Novice
Jacob Waltz's Citizenship Papers
Waltz Citizenship papers.
XX
Last edited by Aurum on Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Aurum,
Thanks for the information!
This clears up a lot. I thought the Great Maricopa Register was a voter Registration Book. After reading your post it did dawn on me that I might be able to order the microfilm from the LDS Library.
They have a microfilm collection called "Official registers of electors for Maricopa County, 1876-1932" (33 Rolls of Microfilm as you stated). The microfilm I would be interested in is called "Great Registers: 1876-1890, 1894-1895".
I think I'm getting the picture. The individual registered to vote, one time, and when they came to the polls to cast their vote in an election, they would have their name checked off as voting?
Aurum, Thanks Again
All,
I found the research locating Jacob's citizenship papers fascinating. The way I thought it went is that Jacob registered to vote in Maricopa County and he had to produce proof of Citizenship?
Hayden relates that "the name of Jacob Waltz appears on the Great Register of Maricopa County for 1876, 1882 and 1886, as a resident of Phoenix and born in Germany, aged 66, 72 and 76: the Great Register also indicates that he was naturalized as an American citizen on July 19,1861 at Los Angeles, California, in the Court for the 1st District."
From the above, I assumed that Jacob probably presented his citizenship papers (He had them in his possession in 1876) and the date and place of naturalization was recorded in the Register. I also assumed that the Hayden reference had him voting in an election in Phoenix in 1876, 1882, and 1886?
I'm making a lot of assumptions so please correct me if I'm starting to stray!
Researchers then went to Los Angeles County, armed with the date and Court and located Jacob's naturalization papers. From reading Blair (Page 37, Footnote 40) it seems there was additional information filed in Los Angeles that gave the location of his declaration to become a citizen in Adams County, Mississippi.
Robert Blair and his wife personally visited Adams Count, Mississippi and after initially being unsuccessful locating the declaration document, Blair's wife Wink found it filed under Maltz.
(Hence the start of the Naturalization Paper's Trail.)
(The end of the Naturalization Paper's Trail) The link after Jakes death.
In the Jim Bark Notes, he relates that Julia, Rhiney and Pete (Rhiney's father) stopped by his ranch. "They camped there that night, and during the night the handbag that Helena always had in her possession disappeared. Who got it, or where it went I do not wish to say. The Handbag contained Jake's parchment map of the mine, and how to get to it, Peralta's note to the two Jake's for sixty thousand dollars, bill of sale to the two Jakes to the mine and Jake Walsh's naturalization certificate."
Sometime much later we find Bark saying; "One evening we were alone and Pete was in a particularly good humor. He asked me if I had ever seen old Jake's naturalization paper, and I told him "No." So he got up, went to his old trunk and handed me the naturalization certificate of Jacob Walsh, a German naturalized in New Orleans in 1846."
I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on what Bark was saying!
1. Was Pete the one that took Julia's Handbag?
2. Did Julia or one of her party tell Bark what was in the handbag?
3. In 1895, Bicknell supposedly received information from Julia, that relates a story about "Two Jakes" and the Peraltas.
4. Was Bark simply relating something years later and made it match the statements in Bicknell?
5. I can understand Bark looking at the naturalization document and only giving it a cursory look and getting the dates and place mixed up when he compiled his notes years later. Why would Bark make up this kind of story?
Aurum
You stated "I do not believe Waltz's personal copy of his citizenship papers ever survived."
Did you mean past his death or until this day?
Thank Again,
Novice
Thanks for the information!
This clears up a lot. I thought the Great Maricopa Register was a voter Registration Book. After reading your post it did dawn on me that I might be able to order the microfilm from the LDS Library.
They have a microfilm collection called "Official registers of electors for Maricopa County, 1876-1932" (33 Rolls of Microfilm as you stated). The microfilm I would be interested in is called "Great Registers: 1876-1890, 1894-1895".
I think I'm getting the picture. The individual registered to vote, one time, and when they came to the polls to cast their vote in an election, they would have their name checked off as voting?
Aurum, Thanks Again
All,
I found the research locating Jacob's citizenship papers fascinating. The way I thought it went is that Jacob registered to vote in Maricopa County and he had to produce proof of Citizenship?
Hayden relates that "the name of Jacob Waltz appears on the Great Register of Maricopa County for 1876, 1882 and 1886, as a resident of Phoenix and born in Germany, aged 66, 72 and 76: the Great Register also indicates that he was naturalized as an American citizen on July 19,1861 at Los Angeles, California, in the Court for the 1st District."
From the above, I assumed that Jacob probably presented his citizenship papers (He had them in his possession in 1876) and the date and place of naturalization was recorded in the Register. I also assumed that the Hayden reference had him voting in an election in Phoenix in 1876, 1882, and 1886?
I'm making a lot of assumptions so please correct me if I'm starting to stray!
Researchers then went to Los Angeles County, armed with the date and Court and located Jacob's naturalization papers. From reading Blair (Page 37, Footnote 40) it seems there was additional information filed in Los Angeles that gave the location of his declaration to become a citizen in Adams County, Mississippi.
Robert Blair and his wife personally visited Adams Count, Mississippi and after initially being unsuccessful locating the declaration document, Blair's wife Wink found it filed under Maltz.
(Hence the start of the Naturalization Paper's Trail.)
(The end of the Naturalization Paper's Trail) The link after Jakes death.
In the Jim Bark Notes, he relates that Julia, Rhiney and Pete (Rhiney's father) stopped by his ranch. "They camped there that night, and during the night the handbag that Helena always had in her possession disappeared. Who got it, or where it went I do not wish to say. The Handbag contained Jake's parchment map of the mine, and how to get to it, Peralta's note to the two Jake's for sixty thousand dollars, bill of sale to the two Jakes to the mine and Jake Walsh's naturalization certificate."
Sometime much later we find Bark saying; "One evening we were alone and Pete was in a particularly good humor. He asked me if I had ever seen old Jake's naturalization paper, and I told him "No." So he got up, went to his old trunk and handed me the naturalization certificate of Jacob Walsh, a German naturalized in New Orleans in 1846."
I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on what Bark was saying!
1. Was Pete the one that took Julia's Handbag?
2. Did Julia or one of her party tell Bark what was in the handbag?
3. In 1895, Bicknell supposedly received information from Julia, that relates a story about "Two Jakes" and the Peraltas.
4. Was Bark simply relating something years later and made it match the statements in Bicknell?
5. I can understand Bark looking at the naturalization document and only giving it a cursory look and getting the dates and place mixed up when he compiled his notes years later. Why would Bark make up this kind of story?
Aurum
You stated "I do not believe Waltz's personal copy of his citizenship papers ever survived."
Did you mean past his death or until this day?
Thank Again,
Novice
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
No Novice!
Novice,
That was one well thought out post. The only fault I could find with any of your posts was your choice of names.
It seems obvious, which is a poor choice of words for any serious researcher, that old Pete lifted Julia's bag. That does seem a logical conclusion since he ended up with Waltz's documents.
In the search for his mine, the only thing of real importance, would be the "parchment map", although the note to the two Jake's might have some description of the mine included.
In your search, the logical, IMHO, place to start would be with the drawing found in the Corbin book. The other documents would not have been destroyed or lost, except by chance. Since the drawing (map?) survived, it seems natural to assume that the other documents reside in the same place as the original drawing. Who was the source of that drawing? I doubt that information will be forthcoming.
If you can determine the source, it might be helpful to know if, and where that person concentrated in their own search. Not to learn an area, but perhaps to determine what landmark(s) they were seeking.
Good job.
Respectfully,
Joe
That was one well thought out post. The only fault I could find with any of your posts was your choice of names.
It seems obvious, which is a poor choice of words for any serious researcher, that old Pete lifted Julia's bag. That does seem a logical conclusion since he ended up with Waltz's documents.
In the search for his mine, the only thing of real importance, would be the "parchment map", although the note to the two Jake's might have some description of the mine included.
In your search, the logical, IMHO, place to start would be with the drawing found in the Corbin book. The other documents would not have been destroyed or lost, except by chance. Since the drawing (map?) survived, it seems natural to assume that the other documents reside in the same place as the original drawing. Who was the source of that drawing? I doubt that information will be forthcoming.
If you can determine the source, it might be helpful to know if, and where that person concentrated in their own search. Not to learn an area, but perhaps to determine what landmark(s) they were seeking.
Good job.
Respectfully,
Joe
I noticed I got Hermann and Pete screwed up in my initial post. Sorry about that.
I feel like the naturalization trail is one of the continuous threads that might provide a framework for me to build some of my own thoughts around. The incidents and information related by Bark are key if I can decide if there is anything in them that I can take to the bank.
From what I have read on the various posts and the limited reading of publications, I got the impression that Jim Bark was a probably a decent and honest individual. He relates two incidents that were either basicaly true OR one or both were fabricated. In my opinion, these are not the type of items that are subject to the frailties of memory.
1. Julia's pursue was removed by someone during her overnight stay at Bark's Ranch. (About 1893?)
2. Pete Petrasch showed Bark a document that was Jacob Waltz's Citizenship Paper. (About 1895 or after?)
(I need some help with the dates)
If the above items are true, these things follow.
1. Waltz's Citizenship papers survived at least until about 1895.
2. Julia had possession of some of the papers of Jacob Walsh.
3. Waltz managed to save some of his papers from the Phoenix flood in the spring of 1891.
The things that flow from here become less clear and some items may be unconciously added details and some items WOULD BE subject to the frailties of memory.
My own impression about Julia's purse turning up missing is that it may have been orchestrated for the benefit of Jim Bark. Bark implies that Pete took it, but the question arises as to why Pete would take it. Since Pete shows up later with the Naturalization document, it makes sense that the documents stayed within the Thomas and Petrasch party. Since Pete was helping Julia search for the mine, she would have already shared anything she had that might have provided a clue. What would have been in the handbag that was valuable to Pete? There seems to be no motive! It would also seem risky to take the purse and then try to hide it in your personal belongs while traveling with the party you took it from? The story may have been an excuse, because they could not pay for the horse feed or something? This still doesn't detract anything from the story if Bark believed it to be true. (The only thing is that old Pete may be taking a bad rap.)
Of course the first question that would arise if a purse went missing is what was in it? Julia may have then related to Bark that it contained Jake's parchment map of the mine and how to get to it, Peralta's Note for $60,000, the bill of sale to the mine and Waltz's Naturalization Certificate. This is where Bark could have been confused when assembling the story 40 years later. He had read or heard about the other documents and simply added them to his account of the missing purse?
I have never read anything about the Peralta Note or the bill of sale being seen by anybody. These types of documents probably wouldn't survive because they wouldn't help to locate the mine? Does the story about these two documents originate with Bark?
Joe,
I'm getting confused about the map. (I guess we are talking about the map on page 134 in Corbin?) Corbin says "This is an exact copy of the drawing made by Jacob Waltz and given to Rheinhart Petrasch, probably a month before his death on Oct. 25, 1891. It was made on a leaf torn from a notebook that was used for a collection of foreign stamps, some of them German."
You said "parchment map" and Helen said on a leaf from a notebook. Are we talking about the same thing?
It sounds like she is saying that it has survived and you indicated that it survived.
Can you share any more history or thoughts on the map's travels?
Novice
I feel like the naturalization trail is one of the continuous threads that might provide a framework for me to build some of my own thoughts around. The incidents and information related by Bark are key if I can decide if there is anything in them that I can take to the bank.
From what I have read on the various posts and the limited reading of publications, I got the impression that Jim Bark was a probably a decent and honest individual. He relates two incidents that were either basicaly true OR one or both were fabricated. In my opinion, these are not the type of items that are subject to the frailties of memory.
1. Julia's pursue was removed by someone during her overnight stay at Bark's Ranch. (About 1893?)
2. Pete Petrasch showed Bark a document that was Jacob Waltz's Citizenship Paper. (About 1895 or after?)
(I need some help with the dates)
If the above items are true, these things follow.
1. Waltz's Citizenship papers survived at least until about 1895.
2. Julia had possession of some of the papers of Jacob Walsh.
3. Waltz managed to save some of his papers from the Phoenix flood in the spring of 1891.
The things that flow from here become less clear and some items may be unconciously added details and some items WOULD BE subject to the frailties of memory.
My own impression about Julia's purse turning up missing is that it may have been orchestrated for the benefit of Jim Bark. Bark implies that Pete took it, but the question arises as to why Pete would take it. Since Pete shows up later with the Naturalization document, it makes sense that the documents stayed within the Thomas and Petrasch party. Since Pete was helping Julia search for the mine, she would have already shared anything she had that might have provided a clue. What would have been in the handbag that was valuable to Pete? There seems to be no motive! It would also seem risky to take the purse and then try to hide it in your personal belongs while traveling with the party you took it from? The story may have been an excuse, because they could not pay for the horse feed or something? This still doesn't detract anything from the story if Bark believed it to be true. (The only thing is that old Pete may be taking a bad rap.)
Of course the first question that would arise if a purse went missing is what was in it? Julia may have then related to Bark that it contained Jake's parchment map of the mine and how to get to it, Peralta's Note for $60,000, the bill of sale to the mine and Waltz's Naturalization Certificate. This is where Bark could have been confused when assembling the story 40 years later. He had read or heard about the other documents and simply added them to his account of the missing purse?
I have never read anything about the Peralta Note or the bill of sale being seen by anybody. These types of documents probably wouldn't survive because they wouldn't help to locate the mine? Does the story about these two documents originate with Bark?
Joe,
I'm getting confused about the map. (I guess we are talking about the map on page 134 in Corbin?) Corbin says "This is an exact copy of the drawing made by Jacob Waltz and given to Rheinhart Petrasch, probably a month before his death on Oct. 25, 1891. It was made on a leaf torn from a notebook that was used for a collection of foreign stamps, some of them German."
You said "parchment map" and Helen said on a leaf from a notebook. Are we talking about the same thing?
It sounds like she is saying that it has survived and you indicated that it survived.
Can you share any more history or thoughts on the map's travels?
Novice
-
dutch elm disease
- Part Timer
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:06 pm
novice,
your post(s) on this subjectare quite absorbing,probabley the most interesting ive read on here for a long while ive got no answers for your queries,but id be very interested in wat this topic brings forth.there are quite a few issues here,not least the reliability of some individuals statements previously regarded as sacrosanct. one suggestion i have for you......change that name...your far from a novice.....good luck
your post(s) on this subjectare quite absorbing,probabley the most interesting ive read on here for a long while ive got no answers for your queries,but id be very interested in wat this topic brings forth.there are quite a few issues here,not least the reliability of some individuals statements previously regarded as sacrosanct. one suggestion i have for you......change that name...your far from a novice.....good luck
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Goat Skin?
Novice,
We could be talking about the same thing. I doubt the map was actually drawn on goat skin, which has been prepared for writting. It could very well be a fine grade of paper, made to resemble parchment.
Respectully,
Joe
We could be talking about the same thing. I doubt the map was actually drawn on goat skin, which has been prepared for writting. It could very well be a fine grade of paper, made to resemble parchment.
Respectully,
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
My initial post was focused solely on the Naturalization paper and it's history. I had only loosely connected the naturalization to the map and other documents. Joe suggested an interesting scenario in his post that I really hadn't thought much about.
Joe wrote;
"In your search, the logical, IMHO, place to start would be with the drawing found in the Corbin book. The other documents would not have been destroyed or lost, except by chance. Since the drawing (map?) survived, it seems natural to assume that the other documents reside in the same place as the original drawing. Who was the source of that drawing? I doubt that information will be forthcoming."
From Joe's last post regarding the Corbin map and the Bark map references, you wrote.
"We could be talking about the same thing."
I sense I may have stepped into a sensitive area?
Thanks for everyone's input,
Novice
Joe wrote;
"In your search, the logical, IMHO, place to start would be with the drawing found in the Corbin book. The other documents would not have been destroyed or lost, except by chance. Since the drawing (map?) survived, it seems natural to assume that the other documents reside in the same place as the original drawing. Who was the source of that drawing? I doubt that information will be forthcoming."
From Joe's last post regarding the Corbin map and the Bark map references, you wrote.
"We could be talking about the same thing."
I sense I may have stepped into a sensitive area?
Thanks for everyone's input,
Novice
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Two Stepping
Novice,
If you have "stepped into a sensitive area", we are both walking the same trail.
"That was one well thought out post. The only fault I could find with any of your posts was your choice of names."
When I wrote that, I should have said "your choice for a name". My bad!
I don't know if anyone here knows where that "Waltz" drawing was found,
or even if Waltz drew it. It's very possible that Petrasch copied it from something that Julia had, or even drew it from a verbal description by Julia or Rheiny. There were German connections all over the place which could account for the stamp, etc.
I believe the original source was Waltz, for a number (large) of reasons which confirm it's authenticity. I don't mean to drop a teaser here, but I have a partner who is still working the area so I can't elaborate.
Respectfully,
Joe
If you have "stepped into a sensitive area", we are both walking the same trail.
"That was one well thought out post. The only fault I could find with any of your posts was your choice of names."
When I wrote that, I should have said "your choice for a name". My bad!
I don't know if anyone here knows where that "Waltz" drawing was found,
or even if Waltz drew it. It's very possible that Petrasch copied it from something that Julia had, or even drew it from a verbal description by Julia or Rheiny. There were German connections all over the place which could account for the stamp, etc.
I believe the original source was Waltz, for a number (large) of reasons which confirm it's authenticity. I don't mean to drop a teaser here, but I have a partner who is still working the area so I can't elaborate.
Respectfully,
Joe