Could someone clue me in on both of these folks.
As far as I know Celeste (sic) was in the mountains looking for a Jesuit cache as was Piper. Both ended up at the same needle, at the same time. Ed supposedly had a map of some sort and Jones was backed by someone allowing her to live comfortably in town.
What can someone add to this???
Jones and Piper
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Joe Ribaudo
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Celeste?
Knun,
I can't add anything to the history of those two that you can't read for yourself.
If you are trying to trace Jones, you may want to start here:
Celeste M. Jones, born in Iowa on May 20, 1900 or 1901. She died
Dec. 17, 1970 in Los Angeles. She was living in Claremont, California when she died.
Is this our girl? This is as far as I dug looking for Celeste.
Good hunting,
Joe
I can't add anything to the history of those two that you can't read for yourself.
If you are trying to trace Jones, you may want to start here:
Celeste M. Jones, born in Iowa on May 20, 1900 or 1901. She died
Dec. 17, 1970 in Los Angeles. She was living in Claremont, California when she died.
Is this our girl? This is as far as I dug looking for Celeste.
Good hunting,
Joe
piper and marie
knun; according to skorsky and kollenborn they were dummies who were a danger to themselves and everyone who came in contact with them they were so paranodial. All I have. Bill
Sikorsky tells the story of the Piper gunfight in his book, but I don't believe he witnessed it. The fellow who did witness it is now deceased.
Sikorsky's book ("Quest for the Dutchman's Gold" or, in a prior printing, "Fool's Gold") is, however, the best first-hand account of how it was between those folks that I know of. Others that I know who knew them have given me the impression that Ed Piper was really a pretty nice guy.
When I first came to Arizona, people were still talking about a crazy black lady with a machine gun who lived in the Superstitions. I didn't realize who they were talking about until years later.
There's supposedly some documentation to support the idea that Celeste Jones was a professional singer before coming to the mountains. Again, Sikorsky adds to this by speaking of her strong singing voice.
There's some more first-hand stuff in Robert E. Lee's book "The Lost Dutchman Mine", and "Hunting Lost Mines by Helicopter" by Erle Stanley Gardner (I think - it's the guy who wrote the "Perry Mason" books, but I read this one so long ago that his exact name is eluding me. Brain damage!).
Well, I'm tapped out. Anyone else?
Sikorsky's book ("Quest for the Dutchman's Gold" or, in a prior printing, "Fool's Gold") is, however, the best first-hand account of how it was between those folks that I know of. Others that I know who knew them have given me the impression that Ed Piper was really a pretty nice guy.
When I first came to Arizona, people were still talking about a crazy black lady with a machine gun who lived in the Superstitions. I didn't realize who they were talking about until years later.
There's supposedly some documentation to support the idea that Celeste Jones was a professional singer before coming to the mountains. Again, Sikorsky adds to this by speaking of her strong singing voice.
There's some more first-hand stuff in Robert E. Lee's book "The Lost Dutchman Mine", and "Hunting Lost Mines by Helicopter" by Erle Stanley Gardner (I think - it's the guy who wrote the "Perry Mason" books, but I read this one so long ago that his exact name is eluding me. Brain damage!).
Well, I'm tapped out. Anyone else?
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Joe Ribaudo
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That's All
Knun,
Once you have read the books that Wiz has noted, I don't think you will find anything else of importance. Wiz is also correct about the "witness" to the Piper/St. Marie gunfight. Sikorski was long gone.
What is most interesting in the two "camps", along with Al Morrow's slant on treasure in the Superstitions, is the Jesuit connection with all three.
Respectfully,
Joe
Once you have read the books that Wiz has noted, I don't think you will find anything else of importance. Wiz is also correct about the "witness" to the Piper/St. Marie gunfight. Sikorski was long gone.
What is most interesting in the two "camps", along with Al Morrow's slant on treasure in the Superstitions, is the Jesuit connection with all three.
Respectfully,
Joe
rose quartz
Joe,www,s real good friend; I think Bob Ward claimed some experiance with them and kollenborn claimed some too when he worked for the double-u. Bill 
rose quartz
OH, Joe www,s real good friend; Marie Celeste is one of them hunter,s who held seances and moaned at midnite to get their instruction,s on where to hunt next or when to hunt next. 
Bill
Bill Joe,Wiz and Bill,
I guess Joe caught on to what I meant to ask. What was the motivation behind the search of these folks? A Jesuit cache as I understand it. But what were some of the "clues" or what information did they have which led them to the needle looking for Jesuit anything??
As I understand it Ed had some type of map. I think he was from Oregon or Washington. Is there a Tomlinson connection there? Anybody know the origin of his so called map? Who ended up with it.
As for Celeste, I have heard no reason why she started her search.
I guess Joe caught on to what I meant to ask. What was the motivation behind the search of these folks? A Jesuit cache as I understand it. But what were some of the "clues" or what information did they have which led them to the needle looking for Jesuit anything??
As I understand it Ed had some type of map. I think he was from Oregon or Washington. Is there a Tomlinson connection there? Anybody know the origin of his so called map? Who ended up with it.
As for Celeste, I have heard no reason why she started her search.
rose quartz
knun; I really don,t remember there being a map BUT celeste did go to a motel some nite,s to huddle with her "financer" or money man what ever; I think she had some seances there too. Bob Ward claimed to have escort guarded them into a place in the mtn,s where he said they buried some strange crosses. BUT noboby else ever saw the crosses, Including their own workers they hired to find treasure. I think celeste died kinda poor in l.a. or there bout,s. I think she was pretty close with her so called map just her and her lover could look at it acording to skoisky. I think piper and celeste were both pretty good people BUT just let themselves get out of hand in their hunt for treasure. 
Bill
Bill Another Question...
Maybe someone can help with this....
I remember reading once somewhere that the feud between Jones and Piper became so bad it was comical. Supposedly some bar near the Supersitions had a sign up that said "Jones Army Sign Up Here - and Piper Army Sign Up there..."
I have looked and looked for that and cannot find it. Does anyone know where this was reported.
I thought it was in "The Killer Mountains" but I looked there and couldn't find it.
Anyone have any idea?
I remember reading once somewhere that the feud between Jones and Piper became so bad it was comical. Supposedly some bar near the Supersitions had a sign up that said "Jones Army Sign Up Here - and Piper Army Sign Up there..."
I have looked and looked for that and cannot find it. Does anyone know where this was reported.
I thought it was in "The Killer Mountains" but I looked there and couldn't find it.
Anyone have any idea?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Who Said It?
S.C.,
Nice to see you are still among the upright.
Page 89, Swanson/Kollenborn's "Ride Through Time".
Just reread the Piper/Jones portion last night.
This from Dr. Glover: "Chic Jones, proprietor of a bar in Apache Junction, hung two signs. One read "Enlist in Pipers Army Here', and the other 'Enlist in Celeste Jones Army Here'. Page 212 "Part 1: The Golden Dream".
Respectfully,
Joe
Nice to see you are still among the upright.
Page 89, Swanson/Kollenborn's "Ride Through Time".
Just reread the Piper/Jones portion last night.
This from Dr. Glover: "Chic Jones, proprietor of a bar in Apache Junction, hung two signs. One read "Enlist in Pipers Army Here', and the other 'Enlist in Celeste Jones Army Here'. Page 212 "Part 1: The Golden Dream".
Respectfully,
Joe
I find it kind of interesting that these two were quite the caracters and committed to the point of gunplay yet no one seems to have a distinct reason for them to be in the hunt.
I'm sure people on this board actually knew them, after all they were relative contemporaries to all of us. Corbin spent time in the Clesete camp....why. What convinced him and so many others to assist her search or Piper's for that matter?
The picture of a smiling Ed in AJ with guns on his hips is classic Dutchman. The story of the bar with the signs, the actual death of at least two men...all wonderful stories that contibute to the mystique.
I guess I'm just wondering how they came to the conclusion that the Jesuits decided to stash a kings ransom in these mountains. After all, as Joe is quick to point out, Jesuits in the Salt River Mountains is pure hearsay. Did Barry Storm and his books lead them both. I am guessing there was more.
I'm sure people on this board actually knew them, after all they were relative contemporaries to all of us. Corbin spent time in the Clesete camp....why. What convinced him and so many others to assist her search or Piper's for that matter?
The picture of a smiling Ed in AJ with guns on his hips is classic Dutchman. The story of the bar with the signs, the actual death of at least two men...all wonderful stories that contibute to the mystique.
I guess I'm just wondering how they came to the conclusion that the Jesuits decided to stash a kings ransom in these mountains. After all, as Joe is quick to point out, Jesuits in the Salt River Mountains is pure hearsay. Did Barry Storm and his books lead them both. I am guessing there was more.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Hearsay
Knun,
Like you, I have read a great deal of the history of Mesoamerica.
The suspicion of unaccounted for treasure goes all the way back to Francisco Hernandez de Cordova in 1517 and Juan de Grijalva in 1518.
The main reason for Cortes's first expedition, was to search for the fleet of Grijalva. The Spanish never trusted anyone.
You need only look to the history of Mexico and the Mexican Government today, to see why they are such a poor nation. The Spanish were master thieves and the theft of Mexican treasures by those in power continues to this day.
While the Jesuits were the real masters of the Indian population, and were always near the mines of Mexico, they did not control the mines.
The mines of Mexico were not owned by the Jesuits. They were owned by the citizens of Mexico. (Spaniards)
That does not mean that the Jesuits had no ingots of gold or silver. Their wealth, such as it was, derived from agriculture and livestock. They supplied these commodities to the mine owners and received gold and silver in payment. Few of the missions were actually "in the black".
Many that were had wealthy patrons. Father Kino was one of the best beggers in Mexico.
From the time that the Jesuits were expelled from the New World, maps, letters, books and documents have fueled the legends of Jesuit Treasure.
That means there is a lot of "old looking stuff" floating around out there.
There have always been "believers" who will pay good money for that
"old stuff" and run with it. Piper, Jones and Morrow were just a few of those "believers" who bought into that "old stuff".
The truth is, that there has been a great deal of money that was actually made from "Jesuit Treasure". Unfortunatly, it was all made by authors, not "believers". The three mentioned above did not make a dime.
"The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz" p. 210 "Piper packed up and moved to Arizona about 1949/'50 establishing a permanent camp close to Weaver's Needle in 1952. He lived there searching, much of it based on a map he had acquired in Colorado." (Emphasid in bold by Joe)
No doubt the map was "old stuff".
Respectfully,
Joe
Like you, I have read a great deal of the history of Mesoamerica.
The suspicion of unaccounted for treasure goes all the way back to Francisco Hernandez de Cordova in 1517 and Juan de Grijalva in 1518.
The main reason for Cortes's first expedition, was to search for the fleet of Grijalva. The Spanish never trusted anyone.
You need only look to the history of Mexico and the Mexican Government today, to see why they are such a poor nation. The Spanish were master thieves and the theft of Mexican treasures by those in power continues to this day.
While the Jesuits were the real masters of the Indian population, and were always near the mines of Mexico, they did not control the mines.
The mines of Mexico were not owned by the Jesuits. They were owned by the citizens of Mexico. (Spaniards)
That does not mean that the Jesuits had no ingots of gold or silver. Their wealth, such as it was, derived from agriculture and livestock. They supplied these commodities to the mine owners and received gold and silver in payment. Few of the missions were actually "in the black".
Many that were had wealthy patrons. Father Kino was one of the best beggers in Mexico.
From the time that the Jesuits were expelled from the New World, maps, letters, books and documents have fueled the legends of Jesuit Treasure.
That means there is a lot of "old looking stuff" floating around out there.
There have always been "believers" who will pay good money for that
"old stuff" and run with it. Piper, Jones and Morrow were just a few of those "believers" who bought into that "old stuff".
The truth is, that there has been a great deal of money that was actually made from "Jesuit Treasure". Unfortunatly, it was all made by authors, not "believers". The three mentioned above did not make a dime.
"The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz" p. 210 "Piper packed up and moved to Arizona about 1949/'50 establishing a permanent camp close to Weaver's Needle in 1952. He lived there searching, much of it based on a map he had acquired in Colorado." (Emphasid in bold by Joe)
No doubt the map was "old stuff".
Respectfully,
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
piper and marie
YES I too have had a problem with the J,s having precious stones and jewels out in the middle of america. gold yes silver yes but the rest of it no I can,t see it. The gold was not pure either, maybe fifty-fifty at the most probley. 
bill no wiz,s here 
bill no wiz,s here Joe,
Mexico is a country of wonderful people. Anyone I know who has visited has fell under the spell. The hospitality, kindness, and tolerance of the people of that great country is unmatched anywhere in the world...at least the small piece of the world I have visited. Unfortuneatly that includes our little piece.
With that said the pilage of the people continues to this day. After all one only must travel as far as the nearest Circle K to see the tip of the tentacles.
If there is a single common thread to this legend it starts in Mexico. Jesuits, Peraltas, Grilivas, inscribed stones, maps, mines and grants. All from Mexico. Maybe someday Azmula will crack this whole thing wide open.
Aw but I digress, Joe.
Good old gun toting Ed, the apple farmer, supposedly made some trips into the mountains only to end up in a permanent camp with a few friends, some dynamite and nebulus ideas about 17th century treasure. Even though it was only 40 years ago (40 YEARS...WOW!) that is the whole story. Was Ed looking for a mine? Or maybe a cave?
On that day he was wisked away to whom did he entrust his belongings? Nowhere have I came across a reference to his map...or his tent for that matter. It would be interesting to here more of Ed.
Mexico is a country of wonderful people. Anyone I know who has visited has fell under the spell. The hospitality, kindness, and tolerance of the people of that great country is unmatched anywhere in the world...at least the small piece of the world I have visited. Unfortuneatly that includes our little piece.
With that said the pilage of the people continues to this day. After all one only must travel as far as the nearest Circle K to see the tip of the tentacles.
If there is a single common thread to this legend it starts in Mexico. Jesuits, Peraltas, Grilivas, inscribed stones, maps, mines and grants. All from Mexico. Maybe someday Azmula will crack this whole thing wide open.
Aw but I digress, Joe.
Good old gun toting Ed, the apple farmer, supposedly made some trips into the mountains only to end up in a permanent camp with a few friends, some dynamite and nebulus ideas about 17th century treasure. Even though it was only 40 years ago (40 YEARS...WOW!) that is the whole story. Was Ed looking for a mine? Or maybe a cave?
On that day he was wisked away to whom did he entrust his belongings? Nowhere have I came across a reference to his map...or his tent for that matter. It would be interesting to here more of Ed.
piper and marie
Mexscins are just like arabs they are the biggest lyingest, theivenist people in the world they are not quit as bad as jypses. They are some who are nice but 70 percent of them will steal you blind and when they are nice to you they are looking for a buck or a opening to get to you. bill
ilegals
you got that right....ilegal aliens are responsible for 70% of the crime in the valley.....and about 90% of the police that have been shot or killed has been done by ilegal aliens.....mesa used to be a nice town to live in and raise kids....not any more
Piper and marie
We are getting alot of the crap in ok. now. They run up and down the highways no tag,s=no insurance=no inspection stickers=usually some booze or dope in the car= now they are starting to kill one another. They are a scarvey bunch even if some of the girls are good looking. They about all use welfare in some form or other. Craplike this we do not need for any reason. Period. Bill TO bad we can,t use them for target practice huh...
Bill TO bad we can,t use them for target practice huh...piper and marie
I remember back in the 1970,s the liberals started howling that the white girls were being bred too much that we were over populateing our selves. The girls must have beleived it and cut back on their babies. Then the government begain to pay the black,s to have babies without father,s and they begain to welcome black,s and the spanish flood in to the usa to all the welfare. WE grew the u.s.a. by about 40 million on the book,s from 1970,s to date. WE didn,t worry about over populateing with these people. The lib,s were signing them up on welfwre for their vote. The object was to break the whites power in this country. Take a look around you now they are demanding that we change our way of talking and living now. AT the same time they would not let WHITE europeans into this country at the same time. How many new people from europe have you seen lately? In the last 40 years? very few. ALL Black,s All brown skins. YOU see some idiots up on t.v. telling how great it is to be so deversifide. This is all to destroy our government and the way of the white men,s life. LOOK around you people; look at the world every where you see a spanish or a black country You will see a poor corrupte country. Begging for something free. Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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Off Topic
Bill and Dave,
You should move your conversation out of "LDM Discussions".
Respectfully,
Joe
You should move your conversation out of "LDM Discussions".
Respectfully,
Joe
piper and marie
OK Joe; Has that sorry little sob of a Tiny Little Fraction of a man been complaining again?? offline mabe? The sorry bastards name wouldn,t be wiz would it? JOE If you want to listen to his whinning that,s fine with me but do not expect me to!! I would take orders from www before I would that sorry thing. Joe you are letting yourself be manipulated by a very small excuse of a man. RESPECTFULLY TO YOU JOE bill
bill