I was talking to a friend last night, who told me he had studied the LDM as a young man. He states he talked to five seperate geologists who each told him they had personally seen an assay report on LDM gold by Jacob Waltz from the San Francisco Mint. I have heard some stories but have never seen or heard anyone who has done that kind of research come up with a single piece of verifiable evidence. I told him I believed he, and all five of his geologists were wrong. They all claimed it showed the ore was from the Wickenburg area.
Anyone know anything different. S.C.? Dr. Glover?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Waltz Assay Report?
No.
There was no San Francisco mint, for one.
The only thing I know of is the Bank Draft from decendants of Waltz's sister. And, of course the testing done by Thomas Glover.
However... the root of that "myth" could be that some of the deathbed ore was sent to a jewelry maker in San Francisco who made it into some pieces of jewerly. Perhaps this was twisted with time and became the myth of the San Francisco Mint.
There was no San Francisco mint, for one.
The only thing I know of is the Bank Draft from decendants of Waltz's sister. And, of course the testing done by Thomas Glover.
However... the root of that "myth" could be that some of the deathbed ore was sent to a jewelry maker in San Francisco who made it into some pieces of jewerly. Perhaps this was twisted with time and became the myth of the San Francisco Mint.
SC,
You make an excellent point, and one that is sometimes overlooked.
The point being that over time many facts and clues to the mystery have been changed, some inadvertently, some with intent. A cave becomes a tunnel, a shaft becomes a cache, an overhang becomes a rock house, a trail is placed on the wrong mountain..or not at all. Problem for modern-day searchers is attempting to unwind this tangled ball of twine
known as the mystery of the LDM.
P
You make an excellent point, and one that is sometimes overlooked.
The point being that over time many facts and clues to the mystery have been changed, some inadvertently, some with intent. A cave becomes a tunnel, a shaft becomes a cache, an overhang becomes a rock house, a trail is placed on the wrong mountain..or not at all. Problem for modern-day searchers is attempting to unwind this tangled ball of twine
known as the mystery of the LDM.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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No Mint?
S.C.,
Thank you for your reply, but, "There was no San Francisco mint, for one."
is an incorrect statement, I believe.
During the Gold Rush in California the miners gold was shipped to the Mint in Philadelphia to be converted to coins. That proved to be time consuming and expensive.
The San Francisco Mint opened it's doors in 1854. It remained in operation at that first location for the next 20 years. In 1874, due to its small size it, was moved to a larger facility. The "new" mint survived the 1906 earthquake and fire. The Mint was moved to its present location in 1937.
As you can see, San Francisco did have a Federal Mint in use during the Waltz era.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Thank you for your reply, but, "There was no San Francisco mint, for one."
is an incorrect statement, I believe.
During the Gold Rush in California the miners gold was shipped to the Mint in Philadelphia to be converted to coins. That proved to be time consuming and expensive.
The San Francisco Mint opened it's doors in 1854. It remained in operation at that first location for the next 20 years. In 1874, due to its small size it, was moved to a larger facility. The "new" mint survived the 1906 earthquake and fire. The Mint was moved to its present location in 1937.
As you can see, San Francisco did have a Federal Mint in use during the Waltz era.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Correction
I stand corrected.
I was thinking of the old reference to Waltz supposedly sending $250,000 worth of ore to the Sacramento Mint. There was no Sacramento Mint. Therefore, Waltz could not have shipped/sold ore to it. That is what I was thinking of.
There was indeed a San Francisco Mint.
However, to quote an often over-looked researcher - Robert Sikorsky - I present the following. It appears in both versions of Sikorsky's works (Fool's Gold and Quest for the Dutchman's Gold). In pursuing this tangent Sikorsky discovered there was no Sacremento Mint. But, also checked the San Francisco Mint... just in case...
"James K. Otsuki, Chief of the Reference Service Branch of the Federal Records Center, General Services Administration, the government agency that keeps the old San Francisco Mint records, writes: 'We have been unable to locate any reference to Jacob Waltz, Woltz, Waltz, Walzer, or Waltzer in the deposit ledgers, registers, and journals of the San Francisco Mint...'"
I was thinking of the old reference to Waltz supposedly sending $250,000 worth of ore to the Sacramento Mint. There was no Sacramento Mint. Therefore, Waltz could not have shipped/sold ore to it. That is what I was thinking of.
There was indeed a San Francisco Mint.
However, to quote an often over-looked researcher - Robert Sikorsky - I present the following. It appears in both versions of Sikorsky's works (Fool's Gold and Quest for the Dutchman's Gold). In pursuing this tangent Sikorsky discovered there was no Sacremento Mint. But, also checked the San Francisco Mint... just in case...
"James K. Otsuki, Chief of the Reference Service Branch of the Federal Records Center, General Services Administration, the government agency that keeps the old San Francisco Mint records, writes: 'We have been unable to locate any reference to Jacob Waltz, Woltz, Waltz, Walzer, or Waltzer in the deposit ledgers, registers, and journals of the San Francisco Mint...'"
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Seldom Wrong
S.C.,
I was hesitant to even make the statement, as you are almost never wrong on historical facts. Trust me, I checked with two sources first, just to make sure my old memories were not fooling me again.
Actually, I just used Robert Sikorsky's "Fool's Gold" as a source a couple of post's ago. He did some pretty good research for his book.
I have my doubts that Waltz ever (directly) sent his ore anywhere. There were plenty of buyers locally, and most of the old timers would not trust sending their hard won pokes off any distance for payment. Getting an assay done in Arizona and having your ore bought on the spot was the norm. Large commercial mines, different story.
Goldman Brothers Mercantile Exchange was only one of many buyers in Arizona. Assays could be (and were) done in the field on a regular basis.
This was done all over the country and probably most widely done in California, Alaska and Arizona. It is a practice that is being carried on in South America on a grand scale, even now.
Wouldn't it be nice to see the records of Goldman Brothers from the mid to late 1800s, with entries in the name of Jacob Waltz?
Nice to see you back in the fray.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I was hesitant to even make the statement, as you are almost never wrong on historical facts. Trust me, I checked with two sources first, just to make sure my old memories were not fooling me again.
Actually, I just used Robert Sikorsky's "Fool's Gold" as a source a couple of post's ago. He did some pretty good research for his book.
I have my doubts that Waltz ever (directly) sent his ore anywhere. There were plenty of buyers locally, and most of the old timers would not trust sending their hard won pokes off any distance for payment. Getting an assay done in Arizona and having your ore bought on the spot was the norm. Large commercial mines, different story.
Goldman Brothers Mercantile Exchange was only one of many buyers in Arizona. Assays could be (and were) done in the field on a regular basis.
This was done all over the country and probably most widely done in California, Alaska and Arizona. It is a practice that is being carried on in South America on a grand scale, even now.
Wouldn't it be nice to see the records of Goldman Brothers from the mid to late 1800s, with entries in the name of Jacob Waltz?
Nice to see you back in the fray.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
California
Aurum,
Welcome home. Having lived in California for a good part of my life, and still being unable to leave it behind me, for good, I should offer my condolences for your "long" summer. You may, as a historian, have a different opinion. California has one of the richest and most diverse histories in the country. For an American Historian it is virtually heaven.
As I was reading your superb reply, I realized that if you were to take all of your comments on this forum and place them into a book, we would all have the priemer work on the historical facts that swirl around the Lost Dutchman Mine and the Superstition Mountains. I would pay a great deal of money for such a book. Signed First Edition, of course.
I have learned facts from reading your posts, that would have taken me a number of lifetimes to dig up on my own. We are all indebted to you.
Thank You.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Welcome home. Having lived in California for a good part of my life, and still being unable to leave it behind me, for good, I should offer my condolences for your "long" summer. You may, as a historian, have a different opinion. California has one of the richest and most diverse histories in the country. For an American Historian it is virtually heaven.
As I was reading your superb reply, I realized that if you were to take all of your comments on this forum and place them into a book, we would all have the priemer work on the historical facts that swirl around the Lost Dutchman Mine and the Superstition Mountains. I would pay a great deal of money for such a book. Signed First Edition, of course.
I have learned facts from reading your posts, that would have taken me a number of lifetimes to dig up on my own. We are all indebted to you.Thank You.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo