First the placer
First the placer
There is the story that Waltz said something like – In the morning first he (or he and Wieser) discovered the placer, then in the afternoon they found the mine. What’s the forum’s take on this? Anyone know the origin of this clue? Or, when it first appeared?
Stories
I was under the impresion that Waltz was going from Superior to the northwest and had Indian trouble at his camp. While avoiding the Indians, he continued NW until he came across another camp and stopped for refried beans. It was there he met ?friendly? Mexican miners who helped him recover. These were reported as being killed in Glover's Part II The Holmes Manuscript.
I do not know the origin of your clue.
Some old prospector was reported to know that Waltz had diggins near, I believe, Iron Mountain(?). Whatever the name, I located that area significantly (10+ miles) east-southeast of the Marsh Valley-Sqaw Canyon intersection. That area looks interesting.
I do not know the origin of your clue.
Some old prospector was reported to know that Waltz had diggins near, I believe, Iron Mountain(?). Whatever the name, I located that area significantly (10+ miles) east-southeast of the Marsh Valley-Sqaw Canyon intersection. That area looks interesting.
Charlie
Reply
Earl,
You have captivated my interest... I think I will look into that clue and it's origin. I too am curious where it came from and when it first appeared.
Charlie,
Seems to me I saw something that was like a letter to the editor of some newspaper from the 1930s (maybe 1950s...) by John Mitchell that mentioned Iron Mountain and a "Waltz" - but it seems he brought it up because there was confusion over which "Dutchman" it had to do with... Again, another interesting topic to look into.
S.C.
You have captivated my interest... I think I will look into that clue and it's origin. I too am curious where it came from and when it first appeared.
Charlie,
Seems to me I saw something that was like a letter to the editor of some newspaper from the 1930s (maybe 1950s...) by John Mitchell that mentioned Iron Mountain and a "Waltz" - but it seems he brought it up because there was confusion over which "Dutchman" it had to do with... Again, another interesting topic to look into.
S.C.
S.C., Wiz and Charlie …
This “clue” interests me as it does not fit either of the two common versions of Waltz finding the mine – the Peralta version (Bark/Bicknell/Ely) or Waltz being lost and finding three Mexicans working a mine (Holmes). Seems that some time I have come across it a couple of places, but by and large don’t remember where.
This “clue” interests me as it does not fit either of the two common versions of Waltz finding the mine – the Peralta version (Bark/Bicknell/Ely) or Waltz being lost and finding three Mexicans working a mine (Holmes). Seems that some time I have come across it a couple of places, but by and large don’t remember where.
Iron Mountain
Wiz may be right about the placer clue. If so, then one wonders where Garman got it?
Regarding Iron Mountain and Waltz, I provide the following. The excerpts come courtesy of Don Shade's book - "Esperanza." The first is an excerpt from the “Arizona Rebublic” June 19, 1959 – THE PEOPLE SPEAK “letters to the editor” section… It is from John Mitchell.
“…About 30 years ago, I met an old German by the name of Warren Verona… …The old man, around 90 years of age, told me that Dutch Jake came into Florence in the early 70s, riding a burro and driving two with his pack outfit. Jake told Verona that he had been prospecting in Sonora and that he had met one of the Peraltas, who told him about the mine near Iron Mountain on Pinto Creek and that he had come to Arizona to search for it… …Jake returned two weeks later with two of his burros loaded with rich ore stating he had found the mine on Pinto Creek near Iron Mountain. Verona told me there was no secret among Jake’s German friends as to the location of the mine, they all knew it was on Pinto Creek…”
Several days later (June 24th, 1959), the “Arizona Republic” ran another “letter to the editor” from John Lindley Higham (aka Charles Frederick Higham) that was in response to Mitchell’s letter.
“…Mr. Mitchell is just as confused about his Jakes as Dale Coolridge was several years before. It was Jacob Miller who had a nephew and shot him, not Jacob Waltzer (sic), the actual Dutchman. There was another Dutchman on upper Queen Creek in the heyday of Pinal City. He was known as the “Crazy Dutchman” and he too was supposed to have a rich hideout…”
Interesting. As Waltz never went to Sonora - nor probably ever met a Peralta other than Miguel Peralta at his general store in Phoenix - it is unlikely that the tale Verona told Mitchell could be true. However, all tales have a kernel of truth behind them. It could be Higham was correct and there was another Dutchman/German associated with the Iron Mountain area.
Anyway, I can see how coming across this and other things – like the second Cavaness dairy ranch built eastward from the first board house - could lead some to think the LDM might actually be on the east side of the range. However, anyone can take any set of clues out of context and make a case the LDM could be anywhere - including my backyard. One must always look at the entire body of evidence. And that leads people to different areas. However, such associations such as Waltz & Iron Mountain – whether right or wrong – are always interesting to ponder.
Regarding Iron Mountain and Waltz, I provide the following. The excerpts come courtesy of Don Shade's book - "Esperanza." The first is an excerpt from the “Arizona Rebublic” June 19, 1959 – THE PEOPLE SPEAK “letters to the editor” section… It is from John Mitchell.
“…About 30 years ago, I met an old German by the name of Warren Verona… …The old man, around 90 years of age, told me that Dutch Jake came into Florence in the early 70s, riding a burro and driving two with his pack outfit. Jake told Verona that he had been prospecting in Sonora and that he had met one of the Peraltas, who told him about the mine near Iron Mountain on Pinto Creek and that he had come to Arizona to search for it… …Jake returned two weeks later with two of his burros loaded with rich ore stating he had found the mine on Pinto Creek near Iron Mountain. Verona told me there was no secret among Jake’s German friends as to the location of the mine, they all knew it was on Pinto Creek…”
Several days later (June 24th, 1959), the “Arizona Republic” ran another “letter to the editor” from John Lindley Higham (aka Charles Frederick Higham) that was in response to Mitchell’s letter.
“…Mr. Mitchell is just as confused about his Jakes as Dale Coolridge was several years before. It was Jacob Miller who had a nephew and shot him, not Jacob Waltzer (sic), the actual Dutchman. There was another Dutchman on upper Queen Creek in the heyday of Pinal City. He was known as the “Crazy Dutchman” and he too was supposed to have a rich hideout…”
Interesting. As Waltz never went to Sonora - nor probably ever met a Peralta other than Miguel Peralta at his general store in Phoenix - it is unlikely that the tale Verona told Mitchell could be true. However, all tales have a kernel of truth behind them. It could be Higham was correct and there was another Dutchman/German associated with the Iron Mountain area.
Anyway, I can see how coming across this and other things – like the second Cavaness dairy ranch built eastward from the first board house - could lead some to think the LDM might actually be on the east side of the range. However, anyone can take any set of clues out of context and make a case the LDM could be anywhere - including my backyard. One must always look at the entire body of evidence. And that leads people to different areas. However, such associations such as Waltz & Iron Mountain – whether right or wrong – are always interesting to ponder.
Mitchell, "Lost Mines and buried Treasures Along the Old Frontier", p172:
Waltz said "he had found some very rich placer gravel near Iron Mountain on a branch of Pinto Creek and that he was prospecting upstream to find the vein from which the gold came."
Mitchell, "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest", p124:
"While prospecting in the Superstition Mountain country, they (Walz and Wiser (sic)) found and worked some placer..."
Both versions involve a carperner making dry-washers to work the placer. In the first one, Weiser joins Waltz later. In the second one, they discover the placer together.
Sorry, the Garmen reference was wrong.
In "Lost Mines of the Great SW", the story "The Lost Mine of Don Miguel Peralta" tells the Ballesteros story where the mine is originally located and abandoned, to be discovered later by Waltz.
Waltz said "he had found some very rich placer gravel near Iron Mountain on a branch of Pinto Creek and that he was prospecting upstream to find the vein from which the gold came."
Mitchell, "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest", p124:
"While prospecting in the Superstition Mountain country, they (Walz and Wiser (sic)) found and worked some placer..."
Both versions involve a carperner making dry-washers to work the placer. In the first one, Weiser joins Waltz later. In the second one, they discover the placer together.
Sorry, the Garmen reference was wrong.
In "Lost Mines of the Great SW", the story "The Lost Mine of Don Miguel Peralta" tells the Ballesteros story where the mine is originally located and abandoned, to be discovered later by Waltz.
Reply
Thanks Wiz. Good job.
So, that begs the question... where did Mitchell get that? And when? Was it Julia Thomas, whom he supposedly interviewed? Or Rhiney Petrasch? Or an old timer who heard a second hand story and passed it along as fact?
So, that begs the question... where did Mitchell get that? And when? Was it Julia Thomas, whom he supposedly interviewed? Or Rhiney Petrasch? Or an old timer who heard a second hand story and passed it along as fact?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Placer
S.C.,
Unless the area you have mentioned was worked commercially, it will still have gold in the creek. A metal detector can make or break this particular story. It would not be that big of a project to check the branches of Pinto Creek near Iron Mountain. I can tell you right now, if gold was in placer in that area, it is still there. If you find the right place and do find placer gold, it would not be difficult to trace it back to it's source. Perhaps we are encroaching on Ron's area with this story.
Joe
Unless the area you have mentioned was worked commercially, it will still have gold in the creek. A metal detector can make or break this particular story. It would not be that big of a project to check the branches of Pinto Creek near Iron Mountain. I can tell you right now, if gold was in placer in that area, it is still there. If you find the right place and do find placer gold, it would not be difficult to trace it back to it's source. Perhaps we are encroaching on Ron's area with this story.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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GOLD?
azmula,
There is gold, in some amount, found in all the canyons in the Superstitions. The size and quantity needed to place it in the "very rich placer gravel" category would still be evident today. The quantity needed to enable Waltz to trace it back to the granddaddy of all mines would be more than a few pokes. If you have found gold in Pinto Creek that leads back to the LDM, you would be working full time with a detector and getting way more than wages. Since the northern portions of Pinto Creek have been worked commercially, you can bet that area has been looked at extensivley. Am I wrong, or have we been gently nudged into the Iron Mountain, Pinto Creek area by a newly formed, quasi-triad?
S.C.,
I think we can safely assume that Julia Thomas and her companions were not looking for Iron Mountain or Pinto Creek. Perhaps Waltz told them nothing and they just sold the business and went looking on a lark.
Mitchell's book was a good read, as best I can remember.
Joe
There is gold, in some amount, found in all the canyons in the Superstitions. The size and quantity needed to place it in the "very rich placer gravel" category would still be evident today. The quantity needed to enable Waltz to trace it back to the granddaddy of all mines would be more than a few pokes. If you have found gold in Pinto Creek that leads back to the LDM, you would be working full time with a detector and getting way more than wages. Since the northern portions of Pinto Creek have been worked commercially, you can bet that area has been looked at extensivley. Am I wrong, or have we been gently nudged into the Iron Mountain, Pinto Creek area by a newly formed, quasi-triad?
S.C.,
I think we can safely assume that Julia Thomas and her companions were not looking for Iron Mountain or Pinto Creek. Perhaps Waltz told them nothing and they just sold the business and went looking on a lark.
Mitchell's book was a good read, as best I can remember.
Joe
Oops
I was the one that mentioned Iron Mountain. It was not an intent to shift the direction of the LDM hunt, but to cite Mitchell.
Having read both the reprints of the 1939 and 1954 versions of his books on lost gold mines "in the southwest" and "on the frontier", I did note that references within the books changed and the details were not always the same.
I also remember that "Deutschman" has become "Dutchman" over the years.
No answer is sacred, right, or wrong. Answers are only directions that need to be investigated until either affirmative or negative proofs are noted. Having studied statistics (blah!), only the negatives are proven. Therefore, who will not find the LDM in Pinto Creek or near Iron Mountain?
Considering that the area was mined commercially, something may be valid to investigate for gold in this area. If I live that long, this would be in 2010 on my list to explore.
Who wants it?
Having read both the reprints of the 1939 and 1954 versions of his books on lost gold mines "in the southwest" and "on the frontier", I did note that references within the books changed and the details were not always the same.
I also remember that "Deutschman" has become "Dutchman" over the years.
No answer is sacred, right, or wrong. Answers are only directions that need to be investigated until either affirmative or negative proofs are noted. Having studied statistics (blah!), only the negatives are proven. Therefore, who will not find the LDM in Pinto Creek or near Iron Mountain?
Considering that the area was mined commercially, something may be valid to investigate for gold in this area. If I live that long, this would be in 2010 on my list to explore.
Who wants it?
Charlie
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Joe Ribaudo
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Clues
Charlie,
There are many clues that indicate the general area of the LDM. Once you go beyond the five year period after Waltz's death most of the clues come from stories by once removed (at best) Dutch Hunters. I believe Julia Thomas, Jim Bark and to a lesser degree Brownie Holmes have provided enough information to find that area. All three also attemped to mislead consequent seekers of Jacob's mine. The more distant from the death of Waltz, the more obfuscation, often repeated through the years as fact. Who can deny what has become "fact" without evidence after so many years of constant repetition.
The LDM could be in the Iron Mountain/Pinto Creek area. It could also be in the Prescott area.
Joe
There are many clues that indicate the general area of the LDM. Once you go beyond the five year period after Waltz's death most of the clues come from stories by once removed (at best) Dutch Hunters. I believe Julia Thomas, Jim Bark and to a lesser degree Brownie Holmes have provided enough information to find that area. All three also attemped to mislead consequent seekers of Jacob's mine. The more distant from the death of Waltz, the more obfuscation, often repeated through the years as fact. Who can deny what has become "fact" without evidence after so many years of constant repetition.
The LDM could be in the Iron Mountain/Pinto Creek area. It could also be in the Prescott area.
Joe
Misfotune
I understand about thr further from the original source, the further from the truth the story gets.
Unfortunately, I was born in the wrong century. With the knowledge I have I would make a good alchemist. I would also have died years earlier with my exposure to chemicals from alchemical experiments.
How much truth was in the Dutchman's last tales?
Could he still have been protecting his cache?
Unfortunately, I was born in the wrong century. With the knowledge I have I would make a good alchemist. I would also have died years earlier with my exposure to chemicals from alchemical experiments.
How much truth was in the Dutchman's last tales?
Could he still have been protecting his cache?
Charlie
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Joe Ribaudo
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Truth
Charlie,
The best judge of the truthfulness of Jacob Waltz, would be Julia Thomas and no one else. Her actions after his death are the best indications of what she thought. How much would you gamble on your conclusions? Would you bet what she did? Everyone on the forum believes they have way more information than Julia did. How much would each of you be willing to give up in your search for the LDM? Read the history of the woman before you make any comments on her mental health.
Joe
The best judge of the truthfulness of Jacob Waltz, would be Julia Thomas and no one else. Her actions after his death are the best indications of what she thought. How much would you gamble on your conclusions? Would you bet what she did? Everyone on the forum believes they have way more information than Julia did. How much would each of you be willing to give up in your search for the LDM? Read the history of the woman before you make any comments on her mental health.
Joe
Reply
Joe,
You point out something interesting. That is that Julia Thomas was not as "crazy" as made out to be. Especially in her final years. She was befriended by a Jewish family and coverted to Judaism. And when she died she was not the penniless pauper often protrayed. She had more finanical assests than many people of the time.
We are all "gray." Things are not right or wrong. Nor black or white. We are a mix of everything. "Things" are a mix of everything. Thomas was the same. And so are all of us.
BUT did Julia have more info than anyone else....??? One might think so. But, not nessecarily. She was around for months listening to Waltz. So was Rhiney Petrasch. Holmes and Roberts were around for a few very significant hours. What is more relavent? The endless debate... Personally, I think Holmes and Roberts listened more carefully. But... what about someone who could have been in the picture for years? Someone who maybe had information in writing rather than verbally? Would that make a difference as to what was "authentic?"
But.... does something like that exist? Well... we'll never know. But if it did... it might be significant...
You point out something interesting. That is that Julia Thomas was not as "crazy" as made out to be. Especially in her final years. She was befriended by a Jewish family and coverted to Judaism. And when she died she was not the penniless pauper often protrayed. She had more finanical assests than many people of the time.
We are all "gray." Things are not right or wrong. Nor black or white. We are a mix of everything. "Things" are a mix of everything. Thomas was the same. And so are all of us.
BUT did Julia have more info than anyone else....??? One might think so. But, not nessecarily. She was around for months listening to Waltz. So was Rhiney Petrasch. Holmes and Roberts were around for a few very significant hours. What is more relavent? The endless debate... Personally, I think Holmes and Roberts listened more carefully. But... what about someone who could have been in the picture for years? Someone who maybe had information in writing rather than verbally? Would that make a difference as to what was "authentic?"
But.... does something like that exist? Well... we'll never know. But if it did... it might be significant...
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Joe Ribaudo
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From the Horse's Mouth
S.C.,
Julia did not "have more info than anyone else", we do. We have more information than anyone has ever had in this search. Julia had the information directly from the horses mouth, so to speak. The only other person you mention, that searched for the mine, followed Julia's lead and found the same thing she did. Things have changed (not one bit) over the years. We still do not listen or understand what others are saying and we do not understand what we are reading. Would you tend to agree with that statement? If we did, the worked out pit that Waltz described as his mine would be in a guide book to interesting historical places in the Superstitions. There were a few early searchers for the mine that did pay attention to what was being said. When they found the worked out pit, they refused to believe it was the LDM and searched on for years.
You state that you "think Holmes and Roberts listened more carefully". How much did those two men commit to the search? As much as Julia?
Is there any proof that they had more or better information than she did?
Since none of them found the mine and considering Holmes experience in the wilderness, I think it would be a safe bet that he did not have better information than she did. They all followed her trail and they all made the same mistake that she did.
Perhaps there is more than a little conjecture here. Will it be conjecture, facts or blind luck that finds a treasure in the Superstitions? "Facts" have not worked out so far.
Joe
Julia did not "have more info than anyone else", we do. We have more information than anyone has ever had in this search. Julia had the information directly from the horses mouth, so to speak. The only other person you mention, that searched for the mine, followed Julia's lead and found the same thing she did. Things have changed (not one bit) over the years. We still do not listen or understand what others are saying and we do not understand what we are reading. Would you tend to agree with that statement? If we did, the worked out pit that Waltz described as his mine would be in a guide book to interesting historical places in the Superstitions. There were a few early searchers for the mine that did pay attention to what was being said. When they found the worked out pit, they refused to believe it was the LDM and searched on for years.
You state that you "think Holmes and Roberts listened more carefully". How much did those two men commit to the search? As much as Julia?
Is there any proof that they had more or better information than she did?
Since none of them found the mine and considering Holmes experience in the wilderness, I think it would be a safe bet that he did not have better information than she did. They all followed her trail and they all made the same mistake that she did.
Perhaps there is more than a little conjecture here.
Will it be conjecture, facts or blind luck that finds a treasure in the Superstitions? "Facts" have not worked out so far.Joe
Joe,
Actually, it could be argued that Holmes made the greater comittment to the search. Granted, Julia sold everything to finance her search, but she only made a few trips. Holmes spent year after year, as did his son. This indicates he at least thought he had good information.
To carry over from another thread, Brownie speaks of coming to the conclusion that Chunning actually had no idea where the mine was.
Who knows? Maybe two mines? Or, maybe Waltz had no reason to want to tell anyone anything? It would sure be helpful to have a reliable description of the man's nature and personality. Was he vindictive? Kind? Scheming?
Just thinking out loud.
Actually, it could be argued that Holmes made the greater comittment to the search. Granted, Julia sold everything to finance her search, but she only made a few trips. Holmes spent year after year, as did his son. This indicates he at least thought he had good information.
To carry over from another thread, Brownie speaks of coming to the conclusion that Chunning actually had no idea where the mine was.
Who knows? Maybe two mines? Or, maybe Waltz had no reason to want to tell anyone anything? It would sure be helpful to have a reliable description of the man's nature and personality. Was he vindictive? Kind? Scheming?
Just thinking out loud.
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Joe Ribaudo
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How Much Is Too Much?
Wiz,
Julia only quit searching, because she ran out of money. She ended up supporting a few people before she was forced to give up the search. There is no way you can compare her effort with that of a man like Dick Holmes, or Brownie for that matter. It's true they spent years looking for, and following Julias information, for the mine. They had the time and funds to do that. They were also better physically equipped for the job then she was.
For a woman of that period to gamble everything she had in the world, says a lot about how Julia felt concerning the "nature and personality" of Jacob Waltz and his word. The financial help that he gave her, and a lesser known person, gives us another peek into the heart and mind of Waltz. There are others that knew Waltz personally and you can read their opinions of the man. Stories abound concerning the evil nature of the man. They are stories, not first hand accounts by those who knew him.
You say that Brownie came "to the conclusion that Chuning actually had no idea where the mine was". Nice comment from a man that went "hat in hand" begging to partner up with Chuning, only to be rebuffed. Chuning
may have know exactly where the pit was. It was Brownie that had no idea whatsoever, and I don't know how anyone can argue with that, although I am sure there will be many who will.
No offense is meant in not agreeing with your reasoning, but I am an opinionated son of a gun.
Joe Ribaudo
Julia only quit searching, because she ran out of money. She ended up supporting a few people before she was forced to give up the search. There is no way you can compare her effort with that of a man like Dick Holmes, or Brownie for that matter. It's true they spent years looking for, and following Julias information, for the mine. They had the time and funds to do that. They were also better physically equipped for the job then she was.
For a woman of that period to gamble everything she had in the world, says a lot about how Julia felt concerning the "nature and personality" of Jacob Waltz and his word. The financial help that he gave her, and a lesser known person, gives us another peek into the heart and mind of Waltz. There are others that knew Waltz personally and you can read their opinions of the man. Stories abound concerning the evil nature of the man. They are stories, not first hand accounts by those who knew him.
You say that Brownie came "to the conclusion that Chuning actually had no idea where the mine was". Nice comment from a man that went "hat in hand" begging to partner up with Chuning, only to be rebuffed. Chuning
may have know exactly where the pit was. It was Brownie that had no idea whatsoever, and I don't know how anyone can argue with that, although I am sure there will be many who will.
No offense is meant in not agreeing with your reasoning, but I am an opinionated son of a gun.
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe and Wiz
I believe Chunning knew what type of terrain the mine was located, but that the landmarks Deering told him about took him to what may well have been the wrong mountain. Course, he might have had the right mountain..but its a mighty big place and a 4x4 covered up hole might be an easy thing to miss...no matter how good your directions are..particually without our benefit of both place names and topographic maps.
I believe Chunning knew what type of terrain the mine was located, but that the landmarks Deering told him about took him to what may well have been the wrong mountain. Course, he might have had the right mountain..but its a mighty big place and a 4x4 covered up hole might be an easy thing to miss...no matter how good your directions are..particually without our benefit of both place names and topographic maps.
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Joe Ribaudo
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4X4 Hole
Peter,
I don't think a man with John Chuning's experiance would spend one minute looking for a covered over 4X4 hole. If that is what you are all looking for, it's time to find another hobby. If you find the trick in the trail, the walled up tunnel and the covered pit or pits above it, will you still believe it is the LDM if there is not one piece of ore or any sign of a vein in the pit? Will you stop looking at that point, or would you think there is another location exactly like this one, only one canyon (or so) over? Did Chuning find such a place as I have just described and decide the real LDM was one canyon (or so) over? Did his partner, Jim Bark also think it was one canyon (or so) over? The dream of finding the richest gold mine in the world, is not given up easily.
There is a bit more than conjecture in this post.
Joe
I don't think a man with John Chuning's experiance would spend one minute looking for a covered over 4X4 hole. If that is what you are all looking for, it's time to find another hobby. If you find the trick in the trail, the walled up tunnel and the covered pit or pits above it, will you still believe it is the LDM if there is not one piece of ore or any sign of a vein in the pit? Will you stop looking at that point, or would you think there is another location exactly like this one, only one canyon (or so) over? Did Chuning find such a place as I have just described and decide the real LDM was one canyon (or so) over? Did his partner, Jim Bark also think it was one canyon (or so) over? The dream of finding the richest gold mine in the world, is not given up easily.
There is a bit more than conjecture in this post.
Joe
A few notes on Julia and her search: she did not commit everything and quit when she ran out of money. She did sell her business and personally search until that money was gone. But, she had other assets she never invested in the search. Assets – including property – that, for whatever reason, she did not want to commit to the search. After she quit her personal searching she is reported to have made money off the mine by either selling maps or working as a “consultant” for others searching for the mine.
Was she crazy? Probably not. Did she have visions and believe they were so correct or significant that they should be used in guiding her beliefs and activities? The answer is apparently: Yes. Did she have visions about the mine and thus reveal or concoct new clues? Again the answer appears to be: Yes.
Who had the better information, Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts, or Julia Thomas and Rhinehart Petrasch? We will probably never know. But, it is apparent and interesting that over 100 years later people are still divided into the two camps and seem emotionally tied to one or the other. Go figure….
As for Chunning and Brownie, my understanding is that Brownie did not go begging hat in hand. He went as one Dutch Hunter to another to see about pooling information. Chunning declined. This is hardly a unique scenario in Dutch Hunting. But, it is not one of inferior to superior. Who knows, maybe that was the second biggest mistake Chunning made?
Joe,
You may be right about the Dutchman being a dry hole. I do not think so, but who knows. What bothers me about it is that it seems like too easy a way out – find a dry prospect hole or such and claim it’s the Dutchman worked out. The fact is that there is (to the best of my knowledge) no indication that Waltz ever said the mine was worked out.
Was she crazy? Probably not. Did she have visions and believe they were so correct or significant that they should be used in guiding her beliefs and activities? The answer is apparently: Yes. Did she have visions about the mine and thus reveal or concoct new clues? Again the answer appears to be: Yes.
Who had the better information, Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts, or Julia Thomas and Rhinehart Petrasch? We will probably never know. But, it is apparent and interesting that over 100 years later people are still divided into the two camps and seem emotionally tied to one or the other. Go figure….
As for Chunning and Brownie, my understanding is that Brownie did not go begging hat in hand. He went as one Dutch Hunter to another to see about pooling information. Chunning declined. This is hardly a unique scenario in Dutch Hunting. But, it is not one of inferior to superior. Who knows, maybe that was the second biggest mistake Chunning made?
Joe,
You may be right about the Dutchman being a dry hole. I do not think so, but who knows. What bothers me about it is that it seems like too easy a way out – find a dry prospect hole or such and claim it’s the Dutchman worked out. The fact is that there is (to the best of my knowledge) no indication that Waltz ever said the mine was worked out.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Hi Rosebud,
Great information on your post. The information that you and the other members have dug up is really impressive.
I was under the impression that Julia lost her business and savings. It was also said that she was close to bankruptcy when she gave up the search. Just after her husband left her In 1890 she was in financial trouble. In 1890 and 1891 she was borrowing money and paying Rhiney's
back pay with store equipment. It was during this same time period that Waltz was said to have given her gold ore. She had two lot's in Phoenix, but was cash poor. Around Sept. of 1892 Julia paid off the mortgage on her lots and owned them outright. Julia still owned the two lots when she died. At the end of her search I believe she was dead broke. The only assets I am aware of is the two lots. She may have had more but you would know better than I would. None of that will help anyone find the LDM.
When Julia and Rhiney made there first trip into the mountains, the two of them were alone and entirely dependent on Julia's cash. They did not have anyone else to depend on. When Gottfried and Herman joined them later on, I assume Julia paid for everything until she ran out of cash.
The only understanding of what occurred between Brownie and Chuning would have to come from Holmes. You might expect him to put it in a favorable light and that does not mean it did not happen just the way he wrote it. He stated that "We have some very accurate information that, coupled with what you might know would aid us both a great deal". Chuning then declined his generous offer to join him. Brownies "very accurate information" was so good that after failing to get Chuning to join him he decided to "make a more systematic search". This search started on the main mountain and proceeded north and east looking at every canyon as he worked his way across the range. Can't get more accurate than that.
I am not "emotionally tied" to either camp in this debate. My interest is the Jesuit Treasure, not the LDM mine. That does not mean I have no opinion on which is the most logical story. I can argue the Holmes side easily but have more faith in Julia Thomas. There are more things that surround (and I use that word with purpose) her story which prove that she had the facts.
Joe
Great information on your post. The information that you and the other members have dug up is really impressive.
I was under the impression that Julia lost her business and savings. It was also said that she was close to bankruptcy when she gave up the search. Just after her husband left her In 1890 she was in financial trouble. In 1890 and 1891 she was borrowing money and paying Rhiney's
back pay with store equipment. It was during this same time period that Waltz was said to have given her gold ore. She had two lot's in Phoenix, but was cash poor. Around Sept. of 1892 Julia paid off the mortgage on her lots and owned them outright. Julia still owned the two lots when she died. At the end of her search I believe she was dead broke. The only assets I am aware of is the two lots. She may have had more but you would know better than I would. None of that will help anyone find the LDM.
When Julia and Rhiney made there first trip into the mountains, the two of them were alone and entirely dependent on Julia's cash. They did not have anyone else to depend on. When Gottfried and Herman joined them later on, I assume Julia paid for everything until she ran out of cash.
The only understanding of what occurred between Brownie and Chuning would have to come from Holmes. You might expect him to put it in a favorable light and that does not mean it did not happen just the way he wrote it. He stated that "We have some very accurate information that, coupled with what you might know would aid us both a great deal". Chuning then declined his generous offer to join him. Brownies "very accurate information" was so good that after failing to get Chuning to join him he decided to "make a more systematic search". This search started on the main mountain and proceeded north and east looking at every canyon as he worked his way across the range. Can't get more accurate than that.
I am not "emotionally tied" to either camp in this debate. My interest is the Jesuit Treasure, not the LDM mine. That does not mean I have no opinion on which is the most logical story. I can argue the Holmes side easily but have more faith in Julia Thomas. There are more things that surround (and I use that word with purpose) her story which prove that she had the facts.
Joe
<< I don't think a man with John Chuning's experiance would spend one minute looking for a covered over 4X4 hole. >>
Joe
You are correct. Chunning was looking for an OPEN (tho pretty well filled in) pit (or pits) that Deering described to him. Brownie seemed to have come away from his meeting with Chunning realizing that Chunning had no chance at finding the LDM, because Chunning was looking for in close landmarks as Deering described them....NOT as Waltz left them after Waltz returned and covered up the area.
My implication in my statement (about a 4x4 hole) was that Chunning was searching for something entirely different from the reality of the way the workings were left by Waltz.
Joe
You are correct. Chunning was looking for an OPEN (tho pretty well filled in) pit (or pits) that Deering described to him. Brownie seemed to have come away from his meeting with Chunning realizing that Chunning had no chance at finding the LDM, because Chunning was looking for in close landmarks as Deering described them....NOT as Waltz left them after Waltz returned and covered up the area.
My implication in my statement (about a 4x4 hole) was that Chunning was searching for something entirely different from the reality of the way the workings were left by Waltz.