Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

[djui5]

Has anyone thought that the reason for a lot of these "missing documents" is because Bob Corbin was an Attorney General? I'm sure he could pull some strings if he wanted to...

Just something that crossed my mind. Not accusing anyone

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"Has anyone thought that the reason for a lot of these "missing documents" is because Bob Corbin was an Attorney General? I'm sure he could pull some strings if he wanted to..."

I have been told that Bob and Helen Corbin are honorable people, by someone who knows them personally. I will take that over any thoughts that might have "crossed" your "mind".

I have been around a long time, and heard a lot of stories. Some of them were about the Corbin's. Lately I have heard "the rest of the story" and have found it compelling enough not to make harsh judgements about people I don't know.

"Just something that crossed my mind. Not accusing anyone".

For those who are quickly putting one and one together, the person I am speaking of, is not Greg Davis.

"Did anyone find out where she got her manifest from?"

If the manifest turns out to be a fake, I would not jump to the conclusion that the "source", for Helen Corbin, was part of the hoax.

Greg said:

"It was during this visit that Helen and my friend discussed the subject of the manifest which he had given her along with other papers. I was there and saw the material and heard the discussion. Sorry, but I cannot reveal the name of that person for reasons of confidentiality. It's up to that person to make it know if they want to do so."

I don't know why Greg's "friend" does not clear the air on this matter, along with a few other matters, but will respect his reasoning for not doing so. It is his story to tell.

It may be that it is not his "way" to talk directly about others, in a public forum. That deserves our respect.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Roger]

As noted above, I emailed the ISTG requesting info on any arrival of the Ship Olbers in late 1839. They finally came back saying that they had no record of such a landing but did have a suggestions of where I could go to look at microfilm copies of the immigrant ships' passenger lists - either the U.S. National Archives & Records Administration regional depositories or the LDS library in Salt Lake City.

I had a somewhat loose schedule today and decided to pay a visit to the regional U.S. National Archives & Records Administration depository in my area. They had on file microfiche film copies of all of the immigrant ships arriving at New Orleans, New York, etc. Here is what I searched:

NARA Rool 259 (New Orleans Arrivals)
Reel 17, 18, and 19
Period Covered: Sept 1838 to Jan 1839

It took me 3 hrs to roll through the numerous ship arrivals, read the detailed passenger lists on all ships arriving from Bremen, Germany, and look for the Olbers landings. The writing on some of them is terrible and the film quality is poor on many. There were roughly 20 passenger ships arriving from Bremen in this time period. The Olbers landed only once on Jan 21, 1839, as noted in above postings. There were no other records on the Olber in this time period. I did not find a Jacob Waltz on any of the Bremen origin ships.

I would have to conclude that Helen Corbin could have obtained a copy of the Olbers landing on Nov 17, 1839, that escaped the micofilming project which created these NARA files. One might be able to go through the physical list themselves and find a landing that was missed, but this would probably have to done in Washington, DC. I can only conclude where NOT to look for that landing.

Roger

[TGH]

Only a VERY small portion of ship manifests/passenger lists from the European immigration period has made it to microfilm yet. Something like 10-20%. So it is quite possible that the Olbers landing in N.O. with Waltz aboard has NOT made it to microfiche yet.

Folks looking for the Olbers and not finding it on microfilm, should consult the physical lists if they can obtain them.

P

[murphy]

I have tried to track the individuals listed on the manifest through Ancestry.com and the LDS site and have been unable to find any of them. There may be other sources that they might show up in, any suggestions?
If we could locate any individuals from that list maybe they can be bactracked to the arrival.

[djui5]

Seems like a trip to Washington is in order no?

[TGH]

Well yes, if the Olbers thing is so important to you then by all means a trip is warranted.

Thats the great thing about Dutch hunting. Some folks get involved in the research end, some like to putter about the mountains, some like to have others do their puttering for them. Always something for everyone.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Greg,

That post was followed by this one on May 17:

"Redison and Novice,

Are you saying that my "good authority" ain't so good?

===============================================

S.C.,

What do you think?"

My source was a good one, but I must assume that he was wrong. I hope the original source speaks up, but I can see where it would take more than a few words to satisfy the curiosity. I assumed I was wrong long before your post, and was fairly certain I knew who the real source for Helen was. Never thought about my previous mistaken post to be honest.

I refute my assumption, and will now go with a better source,
that being one Gregory E. Davis. I thought the above post put my comments in some doubt. Sorry for any confusion.

Mr. Kollenborn,

I have made more than a few assumptions about you, based on what others have told me and some written statements by you. Always an iffy thing to do, and I apologize for putting your name to any unfounded rumors.

Feel free to castigate me on this Forum, on the phone, E-mail or in person at any time, the 2006 Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous would be a perfect time.

Now how about telling us what you know about the author of the Stone Maps? That assumes you, as the elder statesman of the Dutch Hunting Community, know who carved them. I don't know would be fine.

For those who are scratching their heads, the above is no rumor and is completely a hunch on my part. Mr. Kollenborn can clear it up with one post, as his word is good with me.

Greg, your word is also good with me. Thanks for clearing up the "source" for the Corbin manifest.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

Don't know if we ever cleared up this "source" question, but Matthew (Kraig) Roberts is the most likely suspect. If that's true, and I believe it is, it puts the "Manifest" in another light altogether.

Joe Ribaudo

[Mike McChesney]

Joe,

Carrying this on from Tom Glover's post.

I spent a couple of hours on the ISTG Website scouring passenger lists, going through ships' manifests one at a time trying to find individuals and blocks of information that were duplicates of the information on the manifest in Corbin's Book. I did not find one.

So, I take it from your reply in the other thread that you asked Bob C. In that case, did anybody bother to just ask MKR about the manifest?

Mike

[Cubfan64]

Mike, Joe and anyone else interested, I ran across the following information a month or two ago. I will leave it to you to compare the lists and draw your own conclusions. It could be everything I see is just a coincidence.

http://immigrantships.net/1800/mississippi18460716.html

[Joe Ribaudo]

Paul,

Very nice work! I did the same thing when Garry originally opened this topic, but never made it to 1945. You're like a bulldog when you are digging for information, and that is often the only way to arrive at the truth. I believe I mentioned that very thing to Garry when I first suggested we invite you into our research.

Coincidence!!!! I am at work, so I don't have Helen's book here, but I assume those names match the "Bible" manifest. Too many coincidences for comfort.

Mike,

Don't know if Bob will know where that manifest came from, or be able to remember the details. Helen had her own sources that she used, besides Bob. He did not agree with everything she put into her books. We are all in that same boat.....so to speak.

Take care,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

It was several hours of unproductive work followed by a couple moments of luck.

Like I said, I'll let you guys look through and make your own comparisons and see what you come up with. My conclusion is that while things are certainly not a complete match, there are way too many exact matches and very close matches to be coincidence.

I believe at least part of the Olbers Manifest was created from this one.

[Mike McChesney]

AWESOME PAUL!

That is exactly what I was looking for. I hadn't made it to 1846 yet.

I knew if this was a hoax, that whomever would have done the hoaxing would not have just made up the whole thing. Laziness will get you busted every time. That's why I was looking for blocks of information that matched the Book Manifest.

It is no coincidence at all. Same places of origin, same ages, same trades, and same first names. What our trixster did was to change the last names. Look specifically at the entries for the hometowns of: Ostinghausen Prussia, Nabern Bayern, and Penzwagen Bayern. I didn't look any further because the pattern was evident.

The Olbers Manifest in the book is absolutely fake. What a shame.

Mike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Dr. Cubfan & Mike,

I concur!, and it is a shame.

Pretty much the conclusion most of us reached six years ago.

I will ask Bob if he knows the source.

Take care,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

I appreciate the accolades, however trust me when I say that I was and still am sorely disappointed to have found the matches I did.

It's a far greater feeling of excitement to prove something to be true than to provide evidence that something is false - at least in this case it is for me.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Paul,

If I thought the truth reflected badly on Helen, and I don't, I would agree with you. We have always adhered to the principal that the truth is always better than letting a hoax go unchallenged. History is constantly in flux, and it's not always a pretty process.

I for one, am happy to see my original suspicions of the document confirmed, much like the Frank Alkire fiction. If there are doubts, don't ignore them.....remove them.

Like you, I would have prefered to say it was true.....in both of the above cases.

Take care,

Joe

[Mike McChesney]

While it is always more fun and exciting to conclusively prove what you like, but it is equally (if not more) important to disprove frauds. Think how much time, resources, and money was wasted on Baron Reavis.

I don't think any expeditions were launched on account of this person's documents, but look how much time we wasted on having to prove this document fraudulent. Time that could have better spent ............................. on anything! Lol

Mike

[Cubfan64]

Oh - and a couple other things if I may...

1) Someone else I shared the link with who also felt many of the names were fat too close to one another, suggested utilizing the LDS files in Salt Lake City to be ABSOLUTELY certain the names that match are not just coincidence. I will likely not make time to do that for quite awhile if ever. If someone perhaps living in that area undertakes the task, it would be great if the results could be posted here.

2) I am personally convinced enough that the Olbers Manifest as presented was fabricated. With that said, there are still names on it that do not show up on the "Mississippi" Manifest I posted. I don't like leaving things partially completed, but only have so much time to invest in things like this as well. I agree with Mike that the Olbers Manifest was "created" by pulling names from other manifests, altering a few spellings, changing some ages, places of origin and trades rather than just completely pulled out of thin air. I expect that there is at least one more ship manifest out there with more names that match - probably small "bulk" sets were taken just like from the Mississippi. If anyone should decide to spend the time to try to locate another set, it would be good to have those results posted here as well just to tie up loose ends.

You're absolutely correct Mike that it's more important to prove something to be untrue - it's just disheartening to me in this case. I also completely agree that much time and efford was needlessly extended by a number of people on the Olbers Manifest question.

What's been running through my mind after this is what other things have I seen and read that I convinced myself were true have really just been fabricated? If something as simple as a ship manifest (that ultimately has no bearing whatsoever on where the LDM could be located) can't be believed, how many clues and stories far more relevant to the possible location are completely made up?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Paul,

Your time, as well as others, is never wasted trying to correct fraudulent history. I know it bugs you as much as it does me. There is satisfaction in righting historical wrongs, no matter how minor.

I enjoy digging through old documents, and having them apply to subjects I am interested in just makes it that much better.

Nothing in the Frank Alkire story would bring anyone one step closer to finding the LDM, but it puts a shadow on others who have sworn to have personal knowledge of it's truth. While you can't always know who you can trust, it's valuable information to know who you can't.

Take care,

Joe

[Mike McChesney]

Joe,

You are absolutely right.

There are some stories that I have believed that are now called into question. Namely the Sergeant Edwards story about finding the bones at the Massacre Grounds, including the skeleton dressed in western garb with the poke bag of rich ore. I believe that whole crop of Edwards Family Stories is from that source (correct me if I am wrong, and I hope I am wrong).

Best Mike

[Mike McChesney]

Just another nail in the coffin here. I had rightly assumed that if HC or "he who must not be named" had already gotten that manifest from the ISTG, that the ISTG would have a record of it, and a copy should be readily available.

So, I wrote an email to the number two person at ISTG and this was my response:

We regret to inform you that we were unable to find an arrival in New Orleans on 11/17/1839 for Olbers on ISTG or on Ancestry.com. This does not mean that there wasn't a passenger list for that date; it may have been destroyed and therefore NARA could not film it.


--------------------------------------------Original Message------------------------------------------------
From: Mike McChesney **********@******.com
To: istg23 <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Apr 12, 2011 11:15 pm
Subject: Ship's manifest Question

Dear Ms Zanon,

I am looking for a manifest which is not listed on the website, but this ship's manifest was supposedly already transcribed several years ago.

The information is as follows:

District of Mississippi
Port of New Orleans

Ship: Olbers

Departed Port of Bremen 01 October 1839
Arrived Port of New Orleans 17 November 1839

Master: H.W. Exter


The reason for the request is that said manifest was used in a book, and the authenticity of the manifest was called into question. I am just running down all the details trying to ascertain whether or not the manifest in question actually came from the ISTG or was hoaxed.

Any assistance you could give would be greatly appreciated. If the manifest does exist, then please let me know what the cost would be for a copy.

Many Thanks.

Mike McChesney

That answer just means that the ISTG had never previously transcribed a manifest of that date, so there was no way HC or HWMNBN could have gotten a transcription from the ISTG.


Mike

[novice]

Guys,

I just reread this thread and it was a trip down memory lane. Bill, Murphy, Greg, Steve, Joe, Redison, Roger and several others. Sadly, some are no longer with us. Although I have done a lot of additional research on the Olbers and associated events, since my initial post almost 6 years ago, that basic post is still the crux of my research on the manifest. Although the actual complete microfilm records of manifests were always available at many of our local libraries, when Ancestry.com came online with images of all the manifests, it made it a lot more accessible.

Everything is well worn ground although Paul certainly took an innovative approach to his research. The great thing about Paul's research was the immediate impact it had on several of us. Although there has never been any doubt in my mind, regarding the legitimacy of the manifest, Paul’s research provided a lot more insight on how the actual fabricated manifest was created and it provided a "great" visual impact for those on the fence.

Nice job Paul! You did make people dig the information out of your post. I thought you might have provided a list of the names but then it certainly wouldn’t have had the same impact on them personally, had you had laid it all out there.

Those of you that have recently reached the conclusion, that the list was fabricated, are still in a group of probably 10 or less people who have been able to embrace the seemingly obvious. I won’t name names but to even reach the level of 10, I have to include 2 or 3 closet believers.

The Olber’s manifest is only the tip of the iceberg and the lynch pin of a chain of stories that follow in Helen’s book. Once you realize the manifest is flawed I suspect that a careful reading will disclose several other items tied to the manifest that are flawed.

In my opinion, the Olber’s manifest, and the stories associated with it are only the beginning of the false history that has been created.

Garry

PS. One recurring theme by Joe and Jim is that this type of information will not get you one step closer to the LDM. If someone has ever posted any information that has gotten us closer to finding the LDM, I MISSED IT!!

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

"Nice job Paul! You did make people dig the information out of your post. I thought you might have provided a list of the names but then it certainly wouldn't have had the same impact on them personally, had you had laid it all out there."

As I was trying to match up names, I muttered the same thing under my mental breath.
Ya could have given us a few names as examples! Once I found the ten-year old girl, my eyes were starting to cross. As I recall, the only thing that matched was her name and age.

One of my biggest problems with the manifest has always been the time taken to make the passage. It does not conform with other trips the Olbers made.....by a wide margin.
I may have mentioned that farther back in the thread.

Once again, I don't fault Helen for including that manifest in her book. On its face, the document looks like the real thing and it does have some verifiable facts in it. For her, the source was probably golden.

Mike,

Nice job going to the original source for your information. I thought of doing it, but had heard from someone else that the information for that particular manifest had been removed from the Internet.......RED FLAG! Getting very lazy in my advancing age.

Can't see much value in trying to pursue this issue any farther. Believe our original conclusions have been confirmed. It would be interesting to find out who Helen's source was, but it wouldn't change much.

Perhaps Mr. Johnson, who seems to be on the inside of much that goes on in the Dutch Hunting community knows the answer to that question. Hopefully he will give us his opinion on this matter.

As for no one posting anything that would take you one step closer to the LDM......
While it may or may not have been found, my topic on the pit mine comes closer than anything I have ever seen. Since I started the topic, many of our members have visited the site.

P.C. Bicknell said that he would look for the LDM ten miles east of Weaver's Needle. He spent a good deal of time over there. Ten Miles East would put him right on top of the pit mine.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

Sorry.....Looking back, your "one step" statement is correct. Once you threw Jim in there, I automatically took the opposite opinion, out of habit.

Take care,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

I could have listed the names I thought were a match, but I felt (as Garry mentioned) that each of us should have the opportunity to see if they saw what I did.

In this case I didn't want to influence someone elses opinion.

For posterity's sake, I'll try to put together a comparison and post it here (unless someone else would like to do it). As all of you mentioned, it's too coincidental for me personally.