LDM Mine Descriptions - Your Favorite Clue

[nicoh]

I'll go along...
Even though this "clue" sounds like the most poeticized riddle of them all, (and I'm sure Waltz did NOT riddle):
"From my mine you can see the military trail; but from the military trail you cannot see my mine."

To me this narrows down a lot geographically--ya look up! To me the rest of the countless "clues" follow as secondary ones, as they steer us into a generally specific (hee) vicinity, such as what many agree to be Black Top, Tortilla Mtn area, around the Needle, etc, so merging these two brands of clues should get us in the right area--vertically as well as horizontally--since most of the land area that comprises the Superstitions is now crossed out, if the military trail clue is true. Know what I mean, Vern?
Cheers.
n

[Peter]

Roger,

I'd be mighty wary of "clues" taken from Corbins latest work. The German clues you spoke of in particular.

Nicoh,

I have come to the conclusion that many Dutch Hunters in the past have mixed up various clues until today we are left with a jumble of clues that need to be redefined and sorted out. In particular you will always find references to a "mine", "cave" or "rock house" where one REALLY means the other.

Take the famous "military trail" clue. Did Waltz mean mine? Or cave? Or rock house? (I wont even get into which military trail..lol)

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,
Good to see you back in action here. I picked the old military trail randomly from the large box of clues. If I were to consider something a little more serious, I would probably ask if you could see the trail to the LDM location of your choice from the board house. I have a lot of confidence that this clue is legitimate. If it is, it raises some interesting questions. Why the board house if the mine is located in the Eastern portion of the range? Same question for North and West. Most Dutch Hunters I have talked to have believed in the board house clue. As we have been given the clue, it does not say we will go a certain number of canyons past or before the board house and I (Waltz) will point out the trail from there. There is no mention of the Salt River or First Water. No mention of the established communities around the Superstitions, only the board house. Waltz would want to avoid people in the area. He would not go up to the house, knock on the door and ask if he could spend the night. They would go close to the board house, not to it. I don't think this is a clue that was developed by searchers or changed down through the years. The biggest response against this clue should come from those whose conclusions make the board house an unlikely place to start into their own area of interest.
Joe

[Peter]

Joe

I too believe the board house clue has some validity. But I also think the clues relating to entering the mountains at "first water" and the Tortilla area may also have some truth to them.What to make of this? ..other than to say that Waltz was concerned about being followed and entered the mountains at different locations to arrive at his area.

Anyone try to triangulate Waltz's entry points? Triangulating is fun..as the new issue of the Journal will show.

[Wiz]

Joe,
As I recall that clue, Waltz said that from the board house he could point out the trail to the mine. There are only so many trails into the mountains, and no matter where the mine is located, you have to get into the mountains somehow. Once in, you can go wherever you want. So the location of the trail in, isn't really too much of a guide to where you will end up.
I don't know that this clue really holds much promise.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,
I have to disagree with your conclusion. Even though it's true, once in you can go any direction, Waltz would have taken these tinderfeet to the closest/shortest trail into the cache/mine. Peralta or Miners trail would be the most popular choices.

Peter,
Not sure which First Water, Tortilla area clues you are talking about. I do agree that Waltz would have used a number of different trails to travel to his mine. He only gave one clue as to the location of the trail Julia would take. This may be one of those clues with one or two words left out or changed. Could change the complexion of the entire story. There are a number of keys to the answer.
As a member of the Mohave County Search and Rescue Team, I use triangulation frequently. Lap top computer and Topo map programs with a GPS hooked up are another tool I use a lot. The lap top makes the trip into the Supes with me as well. I don't believe triangulation would tell you much, using the alleged Waltz sightings.
Joe

[Wiz]

Well, here's a favorite clue or two.

I like Tom Glover's clue about greatly elevated levels of mercury vapor above La Barge canyon, and that being an indication of mineralization in the area. He also has the "camp ore" clue, using ore found by a friend around the old Mexican camp. Someone, I think Rosebud, pointed out that all the clues seem to center around a camp in the Marsh Valley area. Glover's friend found ore there that was extremely close in makeup to the Dutchman's ore: dug from a different hole, but produced by the same geologic event.

OK, we've established the positive presence of gold ore in the Superstitions, with the implication being that it came from the Marsh Valley area. Couple this with the statements made by Waltz when he was nearing death.

Whether you subscribe to the Holmes story with its long, wordy confession, the Bark/Thomas/Petrasch version, or the newly-unearthed "German clues", it seems pretty certain that Waltz was talking about a mine in the Superstitions when he was dying, trying to tell someone where it was.

Almost every one of the old-timers who followed any of these sets of clues ended up in the general vicinity of Marsh Valley. My guess would be that Marsh Valley and its environs is one suspicious piece of real estate.

[Roger]

Peter wrote:

"I'd be mighty wary of "clues" taken from Corbins latest work. The German clues you spoke of in particular".

What are the issues/risks surrounding the German clues from Helen Corbin's latest book???? Is there a translation problem, did Helen leave out some that would point one in a completely different direction, or is their source not what it was reported???

Please give some insight into this item.

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,
Please quit teasing us. What do you know that we don't, about the German clues.
Joe

[S.C.]

Anything "Dutchman" has to be taken with a grain of salt. The "German Clues" are no different.

I think what Peter was referring to was the issue of the kilometers versus miles and why that was used supposedly by Waltz. A friend of Peter's pointed this out to him and that in turn brought up the notion that perhaps some of what came from Hermann Petrasch (the "source" of the "German Clues") was not correct. Does that one issue mean everything is suspect? Who is to say?

I'll accept how the "German Clues" became known. (That being that Edwards got them piece-meal from Hermann over a period of time and Edwards in turn faithfully handed them down through his family and adopted family members. But, it still goes back to Hermann and how accurate he was getting info from Rhiney and Julia as he claimed he did. And perhaps he did. But, that goes back to how correct were Rhiney and Julia in the first place. Then that brings up the translation problem of regular German versus Swabian. And that brings up being with someone a long time and being able to understand them... and that brings up... and so forth.

I think that is all Peter is trying to say about them being suspect. No secret information being withheld, I believe.

[Peter]

Thanks SC. Once agan you saved me some typing.


Merry Christmas to all.......

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
Are you saying that the members of the forum have all of the information that was in the German notes? If we do, there are no secrets. Since I have not purchased the new book, I am in the dark. Did the entire contents go into print? You seem to type a lot of answers for Peter, You must have the same source. How does one get on that mailing list? There are enough grains of salt in this legend already. Are you sure the Waltz gold mine isn't a salt mine?

Peter,
I asked what you know that we don't know about the German notes. Since I only know what I have read on this forum, in MY case that would be plenty.
I am up to my eyeballs in snow. Talala, OK is a huge snow ball and growing.
Merry Christmas.
Joe

[Aurum]

xx

[Peter]

Aurum

I tend to doubt that this particular author has the ability to explain the most mundane LDM clues to anyone...much less the German Clues...that is, unless she is able to "aquire" the explanation from someone else and then pass it off as her own.

[S.C.]

Agreed...

[Rosebud]

This is a question for LDM. Earlier in postings on this topic LDM had a most informative posting starting:

“Doc (Abraham) Thorne assembled a small party of hand picked men from Phoenix in the late 1870's to go into the Salt River (Superstition) mountains and look for a supposedly rich gold mine…”

LDM could you tell us where this account was published? Or, if not published, the source of it?

As for favorite clues, sometimes it is not what was said, but what was left out or changed that is the most intriguing. The simple fact is that if you wanted to construct a scenario to “lose” the information necessary for finding the mine or caches you could hardly do better than what actually happened.

All you need is to have Waltz keep the information to himself until a few months before he died.

Then when he decided to tell it have him tell it in unconnected bits and pieces mostly to someone who could not spend much time with him (Julia). And when he finally decided to try and tell it all have the one other person he talked with (Rhinehart) speak a different type of German.

Then have him try and tell it all on his deathbed in English – which was probably the first time he ever translated it into English, and one can just guess at how accurate that translation was (a one time shot, by a dying man who was suffering from a form of dementia) – to someone who failed to grasp the difficulties and thus not narrow the clues down (Dick Holmes).

Then have the two parties who actually had the better/best information war with each other and refuse to share their information (Thomas/Petrasch versus Holmes/Roberts).

Then have one of these parties (Thomas) start having visions about the mine and adding clues; and get both the original and ‘new” clues combined, recorded and passed down to us by Bicknell, Bark, Ely, ….

Then have all of this placed against a background of already established legends about gold in the Superstitions – such as, the Lost German Mine story, the Lost Frenchman Mine story, Mexican tales that were likely around, the Two Soldiers story, …..

Take it all and put it in a bowl and mix, then try to sort out what Julia was told from what she “envisioned”, from what mistakes Waltz may have made trying to translate for Holmes, trying to separate out those bits and pieces that have been mixed in from the other tales, not to mention the invented clues of a century of writers, and then season with new clues that may or may not be seriously flawed (the German clues) because the one thing that can be checked (kilometers for distance measurement) is very questionable. Finally, take this mix and ……… Well you get the idea. Could a Hollywood screen writer come up with a better plot?

[S.C.]

They did... It was called "Lust for Gold"... About as accurate as any story Hollywood touches. I like the romantic touch... Waltz (a YOUNG Glen Ford) having a fling with Julia Thomas (Ida Lupino)...

[Lone_Wolf]

Hi guys,

I think I have about a nickle's worth to spill on this topic.

There has been a lot of discussion about the drawing of Weaver's needle from Helen Corbin's first book. When the book first came out, I was very suspicious about that drawing myself. I did a lot of asking around about it back then. My first observation was that there is no place in the mountains where the Needle takes that shape. In her book the drawing has it looking like a left handed mitten with the thumb on the right. I believe it was Robert E. Lee's book that showed on the back cover, the shape of Weaver's needle from the four points of the compass. None of these points show the needle looking like a mitten.

However, From the top of Malapais south to the top of Herman mountain, the needle looks like a right handed mitten, with the thumb on the left. I suspect, as many of you probably have too, that the drawing was reversed before it was published. Not by Helen Corbin, but more likely by Hermann Petrasch.

The story I got about the origin of this drawing is that during the last weeks of Waltz' life, he made several little doodles for Rhiney and Julia that were supposed to help them narrow down the local of the mine.

Not Maps, Just sketches of things in route to, and in the area of the mine and caches. Julia used several of these doodles in the maps she drew and sold. Things like the horse's head, the three pine trees, the eye of the needle, and of course the view of Weaver's Needle visable thru (not from)a saddle.

When you examine any of the reproductions of Julia's maps you might want to pay particular attention to the landmarks on them. The order they actually fall into out in the mountains is lost for all time. That is part of why Julia was so confused. She didn't know what to look for as far as in what order. The doodles weren't numbered in sequence, and she couldn't remember. Not only that but she couldn't remember which doodles were things seen along the trail and which ones were seen from the mine area.

What is important, is if you are in an area, where you think the mine might be, you do want to look around in all directions for any of these landmarks.

Now in answer to the question, where did the doodle of the needle come from and how did it wind up in Helen's book? I was told that that drawing was found on Hermann's mantle over his fire place when he died. How it happened to end up in Helen's book I can only assume.

My best guess is that it was probably given to Bob Corbin after hermann's death.

This was the only surviving doodle of the ones that Waltz made for Julia and Rhiney, and I suspect that it was not an original but a copy that Hermann made from the decaying original. If it had in fact been reversed, The most likely suspect for this would have been Hermann when he made the reproduction.

Both Hermann and Gottfried were notoriuos for tearing down monuments out in the mountains and spreading dis-information in an attempt to distract anyone from areas they were interested in. A practice that goes on to this day!

So, there you have my Nickle's worth on the Waltz Drawing.

LW

[Joe Ribaudo]

Rosebud,
I have a few coments about your post. Now don't you guys look all suprised and everything.

I don't recall dementia being one of the problems Waltz was afflicted with.
He was obviously sick, to death, but I would not want to start questioning his mental health. There are some who might think I am suffering from dementia, including myself on occasion, but they all have some form of direct contact with me, so it is understandable. In his last days he managed to convince a lot of people that he knew what he was talking about, including a lot of Dutch Hunters thru the decades, who have never seen the smallest piece of his gold. Good piece of work, for a man with dementia.
Waltz was said to be a highly intelligent man. My guess is that he could speak English before he ever stepped off the boat. By the time of his death, I am sure he was comfortable with his new language. Thick accent does not mean you are not proficient with another language. The largest percentage of people he dealt with spoke only one language. Total immersion is the best teacher know to man.

As for Julia Thomas, I do not believe Bicknell, Bark or Ely passed on any of the new clues you speak of. Others in the forum are more familiar with what she said later on in her life then I. At the time in her life when Waltz died, she appeared to be of sound mind. I do however like to see her story given less attention then others, like Holmes for instance. Why do you think that Holmes "failed to grasp the difficulties and thus not narrow the clues down"? He seemed like a man of considerable capabilities. He did, after all, have three seperate routes into the mine given to him by Waltz, and yet he and Brownie searched from one end of the Superstitions to the other.

It is indeed a mess, if you bring in all the stories that have been made up over the years. Perhaps someone in this forum will be the one to sort it all out.

Lone Wolf,
Thanks for the information on the drawing. I have asked more then once if anyone knew where it came from. Your post seems like a very reasonable theory. Your theory that the drawing is reveresed will probably strike a cord with a number of the forum members. Julia seems to be a bit confusing to follow. I really like that about her.
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]

[Rosebud]

Joe,

One at a time, first the dementia. There are several types of dementia; true, most of us think of dementia as a lingering condition where some person has problems with their memory over a period of time. This is not the type of dementia I am referring to. There is another type that can occur with a lingering dying. People commonly say Waltz died of pneumonia. The truth is we do not know what he died of. It could have been pneumonia, it could have been emphysema, it could have been silicosis, etc. It was probably a combination of factors, and what he was dying of is important, as it has to do with both his physical and mental abilities. I have seen a person die of kidney failure, and kidney failure causes a coma. But, a person dying of something like emphysema or a non-infectious pneumonia might well be able to talk rationally up until almost the time of death.

Some when they die talk in coherent logical segments, but then lose the connection between the segments. In the Holmes Manuscript when Waltz is talking to Holmes and Roberts he talks about his sister, then pauses and when he starts again he never mentions his sister again. He starts on a different track; this seems pretty disconnected to me. Especially since when talking about his sister he seems to have stopped right in mid-thought. This disconnecting of the segments of a person’s speech is what I am calling dementia, which is probably the wrong term. Such a condition worsens as death approaches; and if there is anything to Waltz’s deathbed confession in the Holmes Manuscript (and there is, but more I can not tell here) the condition would have been at its worse when Waltz was giving the directions to the mine since he saved that for the very end.

As for Waltz speaking English before he got off the boat, I find that unlikely. Where would he learn it? From the Germans he was traveling with? Learning a foreign language as an adult is not easy. Many never master a second language even after years immersed in the language. I have known many such. And if you dropped me in Spain or Russia or some such place I doubt that I would ever totally know the language. I speak a little French and I can get along as a tourist, but no way could you say I speak French. My point is that it is possible to get along in a second language even for years, but never be 100% fluent in it. What we do know from Bark and others is that Waltz preferred to speak German, and we know from other records that most of his friends and the people he seems to have mined with were also Germans. My guess is that he may have lived in the States for 50+ years, but that does not mean he spoke English unless he had to.

As for what clues of Julia’s people like Bicknell, Ely and Bark passed on we simply do not know. What we do know is that Bark and Ely were talking with her up until shortly before her death in 1919, and we know that Bark was working on the Bark Notes in the 1930s. And Ely was working on the book in the 1940s. As for Bicknell’s timing (1893-1895), most believe he got his information from Julia and his would be the earliest record of her info. I do not know just when Julia started having her visions, but they were tied in with her marriage to Albert Schaffer and Julia and Albert married in 1893. Brownie Holmes says flat out that Julia was having visions and coming up with new clues she was telling people.

As for Dick Holmes missing the boat, again according to the Holmes Manuscript when Waltz told Dick to go to first water or take the government trail Dick never thought to pin these down. And you have to admit these are pretty important to the directions – the starting point and the main trail. Dick grew up on the frontier, he had to know that in that country (central Arizona) there are usually more than one government trail in a region, and that the term first water would only have meaning if you knew for sure from which direction to enter the mountains. Yet, it seems Dick never did know either of these.

Joe, sorry this has been such a long posting. I will try to keep others shorter. A Happy New Year to All!

[Aurum]

xx

[Aurum]

xx

[Joe Ribaudo]

Rosebud,
The circumstances surrounding the cause of death for Jacob Waltz, have been fairly well accepted for many years. Prior to his final eight months of life, he did not appear to have any debilitating illness. His final hours sounds like a man drowning in his own fluids. Lack of oxygen would fairly well explain his behavior. What you have suggested is not out of the question either. I have been living and working with many forms of dementia for the last eleven years. During that time I cared (24/7)for my wife's mother who had advanced alzheimers. Her aunt on her fathers side was next. She also had alzheimers. At this time my father who has fairly advanced dementia is living in our home with his wife. They were here and he will be here, for the duration. I am not a doctor or expert, but do recognize the symptoms when they are present.

I did not mean to imply that Waltz learned English on the boat over here.
For an educated German to speak English would in no way be unusual in the era of Jacob Waltz, or today. In the past, many educated immigrants knew our language before they arrived in this country. Waltz was here for a little over fifty years before his death. Learning a language using total imersion takes weeks not years. Even if Waltz did not know a word of english on his arrival (which I really doubt), he would be fluent after fifty years. You may be using the examples of today, where immigrants tend to pool into one area, bringing their past with them, as opposed to trying to leave their past behind. The German language would have become a second language to Waltz over this fifty-year time span.
Why is all of this important? If we are trying to find reasons to change or disbelieve the final words of Waltz, we should probably look elswhere for our reasoning.

Joe Ribaudo

[charlie]

I have been concerned with this issue since I started a year ago.

Covered mines would have been overgrown with several plants taking advantage of the softer, distrubed soil to take quick root. Uncovered mines would look just like holes dug into the ground by mine hunters who think that they have located the LDM.

I am relying my hunting talents on trail markers identified by Charles Kenworthy and the Peralta-Fish Map in Glover's book. In particular, I would love to find the "Caverna del Oro." However, how do I know I am using the trail markers properly and I have found the mine's location?

After reading reprints of Mitchell's books on lost mines in the southwest and on the frontier, originally written in 1936 and 1954, I focussed on two obvious mines. The Escalante (northeast of Tucson) and the "la Purisima concepcion" (south/southwest of Tubac) would show me if I can learn to use and follow trail markers. Both mines are reported to have metal doors.

The la Purisima Concepcion is reported to have been sealed with an old Spanish lock. The mine was abandoned because of Indians raiding the area. Several people operating the mine were killed, including some of the Jesuit Friars from the nearby Tumacacori Mission.

The Escalante is reported to be south of the Coranada del Oro. It was reported that a raiding party of Apachees killed people around the mine and ripped the doors off the mine and dragged them into the wilderness. No one reported burying the mine entrance.

This (2003) fall I hope to be in shaape to explore these areas to see if I can find a metal door in the middle of the Coronado National Forest regions. From what I recall reading, patents can be filed in the national forest, but the Bureau of Land Management does not have a budget to process the filings.

Suggestions, ideas, warnings are welcomed.

[walker12]

[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]Wiz,
I notice you got no responce to the Four Peaks question. I have heard that clue talked about more then once. I could be wrong on this, but I believe the four peaks in question are: Peters Mt., Browns Peak, Buckhorn Mt. and Sweethart Peak.
Joe[/quote]


There is yet another set of 4 peaks in the area. From the Trail at the entrance to the LD Park look at the traditional Four Peaks. Then cast your gaze down slightly and you will see another set of 4 peaks in a row. This is probably just an interesting image for a Kodak moment (big Four Peaks in the distance a smaller set in the foreground) rather than a clue of any sort but I thought I would pass it along.