I found Dutchies Camp!!
I found Dutchies Camp!!
Here's proof
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Joe Ribaudo
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Proof?
Randy,
Not sure why you think that an 1880 marking on a rock proves that Jacob Waltz camped there. In 1880 he was sick and in Phoenix.
Your other picture appears to be Weaver's Needle viewed from Black Top Mesa. There is a little man standing on Black Top wearing a western hat and pointing a cocked gun towards the west.
That's all I see, and I have no idea what it means or why it is there.
If that is what the picture shows, I would speculate it was Indian and depicted a fight on Black Top.
What do you think it all means?
Joe Ribaudo
Not sure why you think that an 1880 marking on a rock proves that Jacob Waltz camped there. In 1880 he was sick and in Phoenix.
Your other picture appears to be Weaver's Needle viewed from Black Top Mesa. There is a little man standing on Black Top wearing a western hat and pointing a cocked gun towards the west.
That's all I see, and I have no idea what it means or why it is there.
If that is what the picture shows, I would speculate it was Indian and depicted a fight on Black Top.
What do you think it all means?
Joe Ribaudo
Just messin with you Joe. It was probably put there by some hiker being funny. There is a smiley face drawn with the same "soot chalk" to the left of the "map".
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
BTW, you say he was sic in 1880? The flood wasn't until 1891. Or was it December of 1890. I should know these things...slacking here.
So do you know of another time our dearest Dutchie was sic? Or was that a typo on your part?
So do you know of another time our dearest Dutchie was sic? Or was that a typo on your part?
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Yep, forgot about that. Silly me.
Maybe it was dutchies camp, and he drew the smiley face...
I should look for the 2 room house in a cave now right?
Maybe it was dutchies camp, and he drew the smiley face...
I should look for the 2 room house in a cave now right?
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
-
Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
1880
Randy,
The information can be found in the 1880 Federal Census. It's an interesting census to browse through.
Joe
The information can be found in the 1880 Federal Census. It's an interesting census to browse through.
Joe
Joe,
I have never seen anything in the 1880 census that tells me that Jake was sick? Could you point out which column the information is in and what I'm missing?
What I do see is that Jacob Starr, his next door neighbor, has a mark in the column that lists him as maimed, crippled, bedridden or otherwise disabled.
Perhaps this is a case of the census taker being sloppy and we know he really meant to put that mark in the Waltz column? Looking at the rest of the census, this guy looks pretty careful to me. That seems like a huge assumption?
I know much has been made that Jake was getting his personal business in order around this time since he was about to die. Why did Jake make his famous deed in 1878 with Andrew instead of Jacob Starr? That part was never particularly troubling to me given Jacob Starr's Health and with Andrew being younger. I always wondered what Jacob Starr's affliction was?
Perhaps a fresh look at the whole Andrew and Jacob Starr scenario involving old Jake is in order?
Garry
I have never seen anything in the 1880 census that tells me that Jake was sick? Could you point out which column the information is in and what I'm missing?
What I do see is that Jacob Starr, his next door neighbor, has a mark in the column that lists him as maimed, crippled, bedridden or otherwise disabled.
Perhaps this is a case of the census taker being sloppy and we know he really meant to put that mark in the Waltz column? Looking at the rest of the census, this guy looks pretty careful to me. That seems like a huge assumption?
I know much has been made that Jake was getting his personal business in order around this time since he was about to die. Why did Jake make his famous deed in 1878 with Andrew instead of Jacob Starr? That part was never particularly troubling to me given Jacob Starr's Health and with Andrew being younger. I always wondered what Jacob Starr's affliction was?
Perhaps a fresh look at the whole Andrew and Jacob Starr scenario involving old Jake is in order?
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Column 15
Garry,
I e-mailed you a copy of the 1880 census. There is also one in the Member Archive, if anyone is interested.
Dr. Glover took the check mark in column 15 to mean that Waltz was sick.
I read it the same way, but that does not mean we are correct.
Joe
I e-mailed you a copy of the 1880 census. There is also one in the Member Archive, if anyone is interested.
Dr. Glover took the check mark in column 15 to mean that Waltz was sick.
I read it the same way, but that does not mean we are correct.
Joe
Waltz, Sick or Healthy in 1880?
Joe,
I don’t "believe" the checkmark in column 15 of the 1880 census for Jacob Waltz indicates he was in poor health.
I understand the heading for the column: “Is the person (on the day of the enumerators visit) sick or temporarily disabled, so as to be unable to attend to ordinary business or duties? If so what is the sickness or disability?”
I suspect you noticed that on the same page of the census, there is a checkmark in that column for 23 of the 50 people listed. There is no notation for anyone’s sickness or disability just the checkmark.
My explanation for the checkmarks? After the census was collected and the forms returned to Washington, the bureaucrats would sort through the information and collect various categories of information. In this case I believe the checkmark was simply a tool the bureaucrat was using to keep track of counting for a particular category.
I’m not exactly sure what the category was but it seems to have had something to do with the person’s occupation. You will notice there are also 4 individuals with a horizontal line. A best guess would be that all 23 individuals with a checkmark were involved in Agriculture in one way or another. I know this was a common category on some of the earlier census. You will find similar checkmarks on other pages of this census.
If it indicates poor health, the whole Salt River Valley was in deep trouble.
I guess my question; If Jacob was not in poor health in 1880, does it change some aspects of the story? At least for me it paints a different picture of the story. Maybe he was still able to go into the mountains prospecting each year?
Garry
I don’t "believe" the checkmark in column 15 of the 1880 census for Jacob Waltz indicates he was in poor health.
I understand the heading for the column: “Is the person (on the day of the enumerators visit) sick or temporarily disabled, so as to be unable to attend to ordinary business or duties? If so what is the sickness or disability?”
I suspect you noticed that on the same page of the census, there is a checkmark in that column for 23 of the 50 people listed. There is no notation for anyone’s sickness or disability just the checkmark.
My explanation for the checkmarks? After the census was collected and the forms returned to Washington, the bureaucrats would sort through the information and collect various categories of information. In this case I believe the checkmark was simply a tool the bureaucrat was using to keep track of counting for a particular category.
I’m not exactly sure what the category was but it seems to have had something to do with the person’s occupation. You will notice there are also 4 individuals with a horizontal line. A best guess would be that all 23 individuals with a checkmark were involved in Agriculture in one way or another. I know this was a common category on some of the earlier census. You will find similar checkmarks on other pages of this census.
If it indicates poor health, the whole Salt River Valley was in deep trouble.
I guess my question; If Jacob was not in poor health in 1880, does it change some aspects of the story? At least for me it paints a different picture of the story. Maybe he was still able to go into the mountains prospecting each year?
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Questions
Garry,
I don't disagree with you at all. After trying to find something that explained how that column was to be marked, and finding nothing, I decided to give Thomas the benefit of the doubt, and assumed he used his resources to get the correct skinny.
There are many reasons why a large number of people could have been ill in 1880. Remember, it only had to be on that one day.
I believe the checkmark was made by the person doing the door knocking.
It does not change the important "facts", one bit, IMHO.
Joe
I don't disagree with you at all. After trying to find something that explained how that column was to be marked, and finding nothing, I decided to give Thomas the benefit of the doubt, and assumed he used his resources to get the correct skinny.
There are many reasons why a large number of people could have been ill in 1880. Remember, it only had to be on that one day.
I believe the checkmark was made by the person doing the door knocking.
It does not change the important "facts", one bit, IMHO.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Flip/Flop
Garry,
After looking at the document again, I think you may be correct. Someone else probably made that checkmark.
Joe
After looking at the document again, I think you may be correct. Someone else probably made that checkmark.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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"Important Facts"
Garry,
At this point in time, I know what the "important facts" are....concerning the LDM. The question of Waltz being at the mine in 1880 is of no consequence because it is not provable.
If he was there in 1880, it becomes very probable that some of the Holmes story may be correct. If true, the covering of the mine by Waltz
becomes much more likely. I doubt he covered it as described, but it probably did not take much more that one layer of timber and they were, likely, no longer than 6-8 ft. in length.
In truth, the covering of the shaft could not really hide the presence of the mine. There would be a dump nearby and the lower tunnel started by the Peraltas. Any prospector who found that lower tunnel, or dump, would waste little time searching the surrounding area.
Joe
At this point in time, I know what the "important facts" are....concerning the LDM. The question of Waltz being at the mine in 1880 is of no consequence because it is not provable.
If he was there in 1880, it becomes very probable that some of the Holmes story may be correct. If true, the covering of the mine by Waltz
becomes much more likely. I doubt he covered it as described, but it probably did not take much more that one layer of timber and they were, likely, no longer than 6-8 ft. in length.
In truth, the covering of the shaft could not really hide the presence of the mine. There would be a dump nearby and the lower tunnel started by the Peraltas. Any prospector who found that lower tunnel, or dump, would waste little time searching the surrounding area.
Joe
George Bryant
Joe,
I appreciate your actually following up on my post and revisiting the census. Stuff like that doesn’t happen very often. Thanks for the respect! I suspected that if anyone bothered to look, it would seem strange indeed that none of the children or housewives had a checkmark and the marks only appeared next to adults who listed an occupation.
If Dr. Glover interrupted the census as you believe, it seems that little “unimportant” checkmark was, at the very least, a contributing factor to his extensive speculation regarding Waltz’s health and mobility over his final years.
An interesting sidelight to this census was the George Bryant (Miner) living with the Starrs, next door to Waltz. From the Carl Hayden collection and his bio on Bigelow, we find that Bryant was listed as one of the permanent residents along with Peeples and Swilling at Weaver, Arizona Territory in September of 1863. He may have also been a long term associate of Waltz?
Garry
I appreciate your actually following up on my post and revisiting the census. Stuff like that doesn’t happen very often. Thanks for the respect! I suspected that if anyone bothered to look, it would seem strange indeed that none of the children or housewives had a checkmark and the marks only appeared next to adults who listed an occupation.
If Dr. Glover interrupted the census as you believe, it seems that little “unimportant” checkmark was, at the very least, a contributing factor to his extensive speculation regarding Waltz’s health and mobility over his final years.
An interesting sidelight to this census was the George Bryant (Miner) living with the Starrs, next door to Waltz. From the Carl Hayden collection and his bio on Bigelow, we find that Bryant was listed as one of the permanent residents along with Peeples and Swilling at Weaver, Arizona Territory in September of 1863. He may have also been a long term associate of Waltz?
Garry
Re: George Bryant
One would be inclined to think so.
He may have also been a long term associate of Waltz?
Garry
Joe,
What makes you think there is a dump at the mine? If it's true Dutchie was so paranoid about his mine, why would he leave a dump there? He wouldn't. I'd be shocked to find a dump pile anywhere near the mine, personally.
Happy Holidays to all.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Das Dump
Randy and Wayne,
There has never been a story about the LDM that told, nothing but the truth. You assume there is no dump and you assume there is a "crevise" nearby.
The Two Soldiers and Joe Deering did not find "scraps" laying around. They picked up high grade ore with visible gold in it. In telling their stories, how important do you think the finding of a dump might be? It's also possible they never even saw it.
I imagine anyone who found the LDM would be "shocked".
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!
Joe
There has never been a story about the LDM that told, nothing but the truth. You assume there is no dump and you assume there is a "crevise" nearby.
The Two Soldiers and Joe Deering did not find "scraps" laying around. They picked up high grade ore with visible gold in it. In telling their stories, how important do you think the finding of a dump might be? It's also possible they never even saw it.
I imagine anyone who found the LDM would be "shocked".
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!
Joe
smiley maps
WOW-Randy,it certainly looks like you have found the Holy Grail of Superstition lore.
A charcoal smileyface,which,according to my rare,and signature copy of "The Dyslexic's Guide to Stone Maps and Spanish Treasure Signs",indicates a close proximity to unimaginable wealth.According to chapter five, about Spanish Smiley Symbols,the expression depicted by the Smiley will give further direction to the seeker.If the face is smiling thats good--keep going.If the face is frowning,well that's not so good--go back.And if the face is an oh'oh',it's probably too late to do anything.
Anyway,I guess that since you got the picture the face must of been smiling.The following Chapters, four and three, contain further information on deciphering spanish smileys and the "Maps" which are sometimes depicted nearby.The map in your photo indicates where you came from/where you are/and where you are going,in that order.Then again,maybe I have that part backwards.
Merry Christmas to all--
HO-HO-HO
Some Hiker
A charcoal smileyface,which,according to my rare,and signature copy of "The Dyslexic's Guide to Stone Maps and Spanish Treasure Signs",indicates a close proximity to unimaginable wealth.According to chapter five, about Spanish Smiley Symbols,the expression depicted by the Smiley will give further direction to the seeker.If the face is smiling thats good--keep going.If the face is frowning,well that's not so good--go back.And if the face is an oh'oh',it's probably too late to do anything.
Anyway,I guess that since you got the picture the face must of been smiling.The following Chapters, four and three, contain further information on deciphering spanish smileys and the "Maps" which are sometimes depicted nearby.The map in your photo indicates where you came from/where you are/and where you are going,in that order.Then again,maybe I have that part backwards.
Merry Christmas to all--
HO-HO-HO
Some Hiker
SH