SIMS ELY

[Joe Ribaudo]

I recently had a phone conversation with a friend and he said something that pretty much floored me.

He mentioned that Ely had died in a Rockville, Md., sanitarium and that he thought that meant that he was crazy or senile. Others have hinted that Ely was pretty old when he wrote his book, and that put some kind of cloud over its "factual" contents.

First of all, a sanitarium is not an "insane asylum", which is where folks who were considered "crazy" would have been sent in those days.

I have a signed first edition of "The Lost Dutchman Mine", thanks to an old friend (Greg Davis) and it is signed on "9 March 1954". The inscription reads: "For Irene Sheldon with all my good wishes".
It is very well done for a 92 year old man......near death.

For those who don't know, that was the year of Ely's death. At 92, his memory may or may not have been failing. He was always thin and never drank liquor. My guess is that he was probably pretty feisty in 1953.

In reading his book, I see no indication that he was mentally impaired. Others will say that the book was heavily edited. That may be true, but is there a good source for that information?

I believe Greg is no longer posting on this Forum, but perhaps someone can ask him, as I have no doubt he has it all in a file.

There are some obvious "facts" in the man's book, that deserve serious
consideration. His mental abilities would make a difference.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

Well isn't that interesting. Wonder what his illness was. Did he have TB?
That book is very well written. Would be a shame if it was edited by someone. Safe to "assume" Bill Morrow edited it?

Also, do you know he wrote the book in 53? Or did he write it over a period of time, and it finally got published then? Just curious.

[zentull]

Sims Ely
Born January 7th 1862 in Overton county, Tenesse
attended College of Commerce in Bloomington, Illinois
Secretary and Treasurer of Diamond salt Co. Hutchinson Kansas
Newspaper editor in Hutchinson Kansas
Editor and Publisher of the Arizona Republican
Boulder City Manager 10/2/31- 4/16/1941. He was 79 years old.
Book published in 1953
Died in Chestnut Lodge asylum Rockville, Maryland in 1954


The Chestnut is a historic place and has a long history before becoming an Asylum.

Remember as well that Jim Barks descendants had to approve the book in final form as well before it was published. I would think Sims began the book in the 40s after he retired and got restless. I have not located any records of when he was admitted to Chestnut.

One should also review the archives concerning Sims tenure at Boulder City. He was a very shrewd and strict individual it appears with some genuine faults.

[novice]

Zentull,

My attention was caught by the reference to Ely serving as Boulder City Manager from 1931 to 1941. We are talking about the Hoover Dam Boulder City? Boulder City was operated by the United States government until well after World War II, so Ely must have been a government employee in this timeframe?

The reason for my interest is because I believe it was in this timeframe that Ely (and BARK) began working on their history of the Lost Dutchman.

From Ely's book;

Though I was no longer living in Phoenix in 1931, it was then that I first conceived the idea of writing a factual history of the Lost Dutchman Mine. In the first place, the oldtimers were undoubtedly right when they linked Adolph Ruth to the Lost Dutchman, and in the second place, one other man and I were, perhaps, the only two people living who could truly reveal its story.

Of course the one man was Jim Bark. I had always accepted the idea that Bark recorded his notes over many years, roughly 1910 to 1935. I now believe that I was almost surely wrong in accepting that theory. I have never been privey to any hard evidence that this was the case.

In my opinion it seems far more likely that Ely broached the sublect with Bark in 1932 and enlisted his help in writing a history. Bark appears to have been essentially retired at this point and it was then that he recorded the stories that became the Bark Notes. (This idea puts the notes in a much different perspective from my viewpoint and helps to answer a lot of questions) Given my concept of Bark, I just don't believe he was one to sit down and record stories and drag them around for many years waiting for someone to ask about them.

I don't believe that either Bark or Ely ever put pencil to paper before 1932. This is a conclusion I have reached slowly over time and I'm sure there are many that would strongly disagree?

Garry

[klondike]

Wonder why Mr. Ely spent 10 years in Boulder City? I mean did he need the work? I thought he was a newspaper man? Seems a long way from Phoenix. At least for the time. Did his wife join him?

Pretty little town. Lot of interesting history near there on the Colorado River.

Thank You.

Klondike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

If Sims Ely ended up in Chestnut Lodge, there can be little doubt that his family considered him "crazy". That does not mean it was so.

In Reading Ely's history, it is obvious that he was a "control freak" of the highest order. He was a compulsive "micro-manager", and just the kind of personality that was needed to run things, with an iron hand, as Boulder Dam was being constructed.

That kind of personality did not bode well for long term family relationships. In his final years, those intractable qualities would have eventually worn thin on those closest to him. While family may have "gushed" over the old man publicly, a great deal of teeth gnashing would have probably taken place behind closed doors.

Many treatments and medications would only exacerbate mental complications that, for a number of the elderly, are considered a "normal" aging process now. Even today, many drugs that are given for a myriad of health problems, can cause the mental degradation of the patient. (Dementia)

Ely's book signings in 1954, indicate the possibility that his mental problems may have had more to do with his personality than his sanity.

The above is just my opinion, based on a number of years working with the elderly, which included Dementia and Alzheimer's patients. Two of those with Alzheimer's were family members who stayed in our home until their deaths.

I had not heard that Ely was a patient in Chestnut Lodge.

Nice work.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Klondike,

Sims Ely wore many hats in his life. Wayne's list is a bit short, but if you are interested, there are a number of sources that are available which chronicle the man's working life. "ALL THE TIME A NEWSPAPER" by Earl Zarbin, is not a bad place to start, and tells a bit of the professional history of Ely.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

Died in Chestnut Lodge asylum Rockville, Maryland in 1954

The Thunder God strikes again...

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

Sims Ely was 79 years old when he retired as City Manager in 1941. He was well past the "compulsory retirement age" at that point and was given an exemption by Executive Order 8070 in March of 1939.

An interesting side note here is that President Roosevelt also gave Excutive Order 8058 in the same year, for the same exemption, to another player in LDM history. Ales Hrdlicka was exempted in February of 1939.

Ely was part owner of "The Arizona Republican" with Stephen W. Higley.
They purchased the paper in 1909. Higley bought Ely's share of the newspaper in 1911.

Ely's job as Boulder City Manager, was a result of "family ties".

Your conclusions seem plausible. Dr. Glover and Greg Davis probably have many of the answers.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

At 92, it took Ely a long time to succumb to the "Thunder God's Curse". Old Thunder must have been on an extended hiatus.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

I think he got a "free pass" for most of his life

[zentull]

Joe,

"The Dictator" was one of his nicknames at Boulder City I believe.

I just wonder why send Sims at 94 that far East to a place that is now seen as something out of a horror story. Most of the information I got was purely accidental........looking for one thing and ending up somewhere entirely different. Perehaps it was seen as cutting edge technology then, but he was 94 and it seems odd they sent him off.

(A sanitarium for the "profoundly regressed" psychotic, "hopelessly schizophrenic," borderline personality disorder (BPD), and other seriously afflicted psychiatric and "mental" patients.)

Here is a link to a site that gets a little overbearing on the nonsense end, but gives at least one perspective of the place.http://carantics.com/chestnutlodge/

There is also a historic building site on the Rockville webpage that gives more info.

the UNLV online library has information on Boulder City and The Hoover Dam project concerning Sims at http://www.library.unlv.edu/diaries_hoo ... index.html

[novice]

I've found a myriad of information concerning Ely's association with Boulder City. (Very Informative and it paints a great picture) I see where many of you are coming from. Dictator, Micromanager, Racist, SUCCESSFUL ADMINISTRATOR, etc.

I believe I get the picture of a very busy man at least between 1932 and 1935 (The completion of the DAM). It seems to me that Ely would have been hard pressed to find "much" time to devote to the history of the Lost Dutchman. I'm sure he and Bark were in communication in this period but perhaps Ely's job is what kept the history project from coming together and being published?

What I'm not clear on is what happened in Boulder City after the completion of the dam? Who were the people that remained and were those that stayed, still associated with the dam operation? Would Ely's duties have continued unabated?

Does anybody have a death date for Ely? (An actual day)

Zentull,

Can you share the source of the reference to Ely dying in Chesnut Lodge Asylum, Rockville, Maryland? It all sounds reasonable and seems to fit but I have learned to hesitate before accepting anything as "gospel" concerning the Dutchman.

Any additional information that sheds light on the questions above will be appreciated.

Garry

[klondike]

Mr. Ribaudo,

Thank you for the informatin on Mr. Ely. I have not been able to find the book you mention but I would like to read it.

Did read a few articles on his stay in Boulder City. He seems to have been quite stern and given the times maybe it was what was needed. Don`t believe his style would succeed today.

Read that he spent a lot of time in Nelson`s Landing. Nelson`s Landing is a little town about 20 miles from Boulder City on the Colorado River. Not sure why he would visit there. I have been there pretty bleak little town.


Klondike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

Like many things "Dutchman", you may find a lot of contradictory information about Sims Ely.

Good luck,

Joe

[novice]

Joe,

Don't go silent on us now. I know you have always indicated a strong interest in Sims Ely. It's hard to believe we don't know his death date or perhaps there is a copy of his obit (I'll bet he had a significant obituary). A death certificate may not be obtainable but it would surely go a long way to understanding Ely's afflicition? Help us out here.

Garry

[zentull]

Sims is a tough nut to crack. He is listed as Dennis Ely in the Arizona census. Transcriber needs new glasses I guess, it looked like Sims on the actual document to me.

There are a number of Ely family trees, oddly enough none list his exact date of death.

There is an Irene Sims Ely, I believe Sims was her maiden name. Born in 1835 (1831) in Brush Creek, Smith Co. Tennessee. She died in 1910 at Ewing, Franklin Co Illinois. Possible Sims Ely relation. Sims parents were both born in Virginia.

Here is a partial reason for Sims late retirement:


Franklin D. Roosevelt - 1940

Executive Order 8351
Exemption of Sims Ely From Compulsory Retirement for Age

Signed: February 25, 1940
See: EO 8070, March 21, 1939
Note: This Executive order was not received for publication in the Federal Register.

Executive Order 8070

In 1880 Sims was studying law in Hutchinson Kansas
Exemption of Sims Ely From Compulsory Retirement for Age

Signed: March 21, 1939
Amended by: EO 8351, February 25, 1940
Note: This Executive order was not received for publication in the Federal Register.


Sims ELY b: 1862 in Henry County, TN
Elizabeth NORTHCUTT b: 1865 near Vacaville, CA

Hopefully Garry pulls the rabbit out of the hat. I have too little patience for this sort of thing. I am trying to see if there are public records from the asylum that someone can access. Most everyone interested in the place are more inclined to the overly dramatic spooky aspect of what went on. Sims really falls off the grid when he retired.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

It can be very exasperating trying to pin down particulars on Sims Ely.
You have done a good job. These kind of puzzles are only fun for people who are interested in the history of the people who surround the legends. That describes me, and I believe Garry......to a T.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry and Wayne,

It's a real mystery why Sims Ely was placed in Chestnut Lodge. Not that he was not a prime candidate for schizophrenia, which is often tied to very high intelligence, but that he was sent there at such a late age.

My guess would be that he died shortly after being admitted. It speaks volumes for his families respect for the man's abilities, that they sent him to a place that was focused on improvemt in the mental condition of its patients.

At 92 they were trying to "cure" him.

Chestnut Lodge closed it's doors in 2001, so I doubt we will find out the exact date of his death. It's reputation is deserved, or undeserved, depending on who is doing the telling.

From the families perspective, they were sending him to the most respected facility in the country. They were looking for a "cure".

Joe

[zentull]

What intrigues me is I find a similar cadence in Northcutt and Sims writings. Perhaps the manuscript was unfinished and the editing and revising was handled by Northcutt or even Sims Jr.

That being said, certain anomalies attributed to Sims could be attributed to the editing or revision. If in fact the story was written out in the last 2 years of Sims life as we are sometimes told, there may have been more than just the purpose of relating his story. Both families continued in search of the LDM.

That being said, whatever was there will be difficult to access.

[zentull]

I remember there were postings as to when Chunning/Bark/Ely worked the various partnerships. I believe it was Novice who felt that Sims came after the Chunning/Bark search in the 1890s. However Sims Ely does state that the partnership began early in 1895 which was the year of his 1st interview with Julia and a year after Rhiney had left town(1894). Sims appears to allude to the fact that he never met Rhiney and worked off Jim Barks memory on that information.

[zentull]

Thomas,

As easy as it is to ask or theorize on the forum, some of the questions we ask would be difficult to broach before a living relative of the person in question. There is some discrepancy in my mind of whether the book was written long before his death or that Northcutt was very involved in its composition due to the very real possibilities that Sims had some serious health issues. As much as I would like to know about those last few years, it could be perceived as attacking Sims character by his family.

The book is regarded as a testament to the friendship of Bark and Ely and that could mean a number of things as to how it was brought together in its final concept. I doubt we will ever know.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

I believe Thomas has a personal relationship with the Ely family. There is no person I know of, who would be better equipped to ask some of these questions. Thomas does not possess the "bull in a china shop" mentality of......say, a Joe Ribaudo.

If presented a few questions, I believe he would be able to pick the appropriate ones to ask.

Joe

[djui5]

For Ely's death, please refer to the following papers:

Phoenix Gazette
November 11 and 12, l954.

Arizona Republic
November 12,1954.

[zentull]

" Bull in the china shop" mentality would make a more interesting book though. I can't imagine what it is like writing a book where you have to bite your tongue as often as Dutch writers probably do.

Most of the LDM stories are filled with tragedy that was avoidable. Tell a disinterested party about the various personalities and they have a very different opinion of them.

Best editorial I ever wrote was only viewed privately by a small number of people. Didn't need a shitstorm at my front door or in my inbox because people wouldn't get it. Even those I tore apart thought it was really good, but told me it would go down badly for the most part. Truth sets you free in a lot of ways, it also can alienate people. That is what a delete button can do.

Jim Bark and Sims Ely were possibly the two most successful Dutch Hunters who lived. They were able to seperate things well and the LDM was part of their lives, not the core of it. A lot of people who followed would have done well to pattern their lives accordingly. Yet the 2 of them and Julia and Rhiney get less play than should be. We know little of them and much of strangers perceptions of them.