A good question is what caused Gassler to have to go in right there and then? He obviously felt there was a time factor on his presence for some reason. He wanted help and unable to get that help went in anyways. It could tie in to something Jakes crew was into or onto in the vicinity of Gasslers claims. Could be something else. It has to go beyond just figuring out his next step or even a definitive location. Last time I checked the mountains were in the same place. It was something that could not wait for a few months in his opinion. Odd thing for someone who displayed so much restraint and patience in his search.
22 years later there is a cold trail and some of those who had the answers are gone.
Walter Gassler mystery.
Maybe it was the fake Roland Gassler? That would give him access to Walter's pack, and put him in an opportune location at a convenient time.Another possibility is that, I think this was posted earlier, he ran into someone on the way to the spring, and that person helped him a bit. Maybe they carried his pack...who knows.
It could all work for me if not for the fact that Don Shade recognized the person by Gasslers body. Remember that Gasslers countenance was described as peaceful when he was found. Chances are he simply died of natural causes. I believe an unknown party would have stayed with him or went for help. If that person checked for ID and found the ore, it could change the story........still the placement of the body and Don Shades account makes me believe the body was moved purposefully to that particular spot. The unknown samaritan would not likely move the body to that spot. The tight timeline of the events makes some possibilities rather remote.
Chances are whoever moved the body or was seen by Don Shade knew who Gassler was. The same goes for the ore recepient. The person who approached Tom Kollenborn would not be any of the above.
Chances are whoever moved the body or was seen by Don Shade knew who Gassler was. The same goes for the ore recepient. The person who approached Tom Kollenborn would not be any of the above.
Something else to ponder.
Anybody try to "move a body" in the Superstitions (or anywhere else for that matter). Next time you guys are on the Salt Flats tell your buddy to go limp and carry him down to Gasslers Rock.
See how that goes...
Obviously, if he was moved, an animal or more than one man was involved.
Anybody try to "move a body" in the Superstitions (or anywhere else for that matter). Next time you guys are on the Salt Flats tell your buddy to go limp and carry him down to Gasslers Rock.
See how that goes...
Obviously, if he was moved, an animal or more than one man was involved.
It could all work for me if not for the fact that Don Shade recognized the person by Gasslers body. Remember that Gasslers countenance was described as peaceful when he was found.
Didn't he say he wouldn't tell who it was because he wanted to live? Maybe it was one of the guys from Jakes camp, and they either moved his body after he died because he was in an area they were concerned with (3-4 guys could lift a body and carry it), or Walter was intruding on somewhere they were active in and they scared him to death, then moved his body.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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- Part Timer
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TGH,
Considering the Gassler died on top theory: I still do not know where Gassler's camp was or where he might have been when he died, so I am at a bit of a loss as to who could have seen him and where, however, if Jake's boys were involved, including the packer, they would have been able to control that country, and see everything that was going on. They could have limited the amount of risk in the act of moving Gassler. I like the night trip theory, if there was enough light. However, as LDM stated the day time is very possible.
LDM,
I too believe that the packer would have not been involved in anything underhanded. This does not count him out of packing Gassler's body off the mountain though, especially at the direction of Jake's boys or Jake? Are you saying you do not believe that the packer would have gone over to Jake's camp?
This is all far off based of the accepted story, but it is fun, and may lead to a new accepted story. Only if Gassler's family could tell us that there was a packer or not.
Jesse
Considering the Gassler died on top theory: I still do not know where Gassler's camp was or where he might have been when he died, so I am at a bit of a loss as to who could have seen him and where, however, if Jake's boys were involved, including the packer, they would have been able to control that country, and see everything that was going on. They could have limited the amount of risk in the act of moving Gassler. I like the night trip theory, if there was enough light. However, as LDM stated the day time is very possible.
LDM,
I too believe that the packer would have not been involved in anything underhanded. This does not count him out of packing Gassler's body off the mountain though, especially at the direction of Jake's boys or Jake? Are you saying you do not believe that the packer would have gone over to Jake's camp?
This is all far off based of the accepted story, but it is fun, and may lead to a new accepted story. Only if Gassler's family could tell us that there was a packer or not.
Jesse
Jesse
Agree 100%. If Jakes people were involved in moving the body, then whatever time they did so hardly matters as they indeed could have had a couple of guys take it down the trail on an animal and a couple more making sure the area was clear.
Checked the lunar calendar. it was dark of moon during that first week of May. I've done a little tramping about in that country after sundown. Depending on where one is, you might pick up a little light from Phoenix even on the darkest nights, but if you get caught in a dark spot you literally cant see the hand in front of your face, and I have pretty good night vision.
Had to hunker down one night and wait for moonrise once, but once the moon is up its like semi-daylight in there if its a full or near-full moon.
The conditions were such that it would have been plenty dark that first week of May if Gasslers body was moved at night.
Agree 100%. If Jakes people were involved in moving the body, then whatever time they did so hardly matters as they indeed could have had a couple of guys take it down the trail on an animal and a couple more making sure the area was clear.
Checked the lunar calendar. it was dark of moon during that first week of May. I've done a little tramping about in that country after sundown. Depending on where one is, you might pick up a little light from Phoenix even on the darkest nights, but if you get caught in a dark spot you literally cant see the hand in front of your face, and I have pretty good night vision.
Had to hunker down one night and wait for moonrise once, but once the moon is up its like semi-daylight in there if its a full or near-full moon.
The conditions were such that it would have been plenty dark that first week of May if Gasslers body was moved at night.
Walter's Gold Ore
In Kollenborn's account, he and Bob Corbin are on a trip in 1986 searching for Gassler's camp. The subject of Walter's gold ore comes up and Corbin states that in his only meeting with Walter he had specifically ask if he had ever taken samples of gold ore into the mountains to match up with the outcrops around his camp. Since the ore shows up later in the story after Walter's death it could be relevant.
If we take the above account at face value, it seems to me that Corbin at least (probably Tom also), knew Walter had ore samples before he died. I would guess that perhaps Walter brought the samples along with the manuscript to convince Corbin of the validly of his story? If we believe this story and this scenario, it seems to follow that the stranger who approached Kollenborn with the samples may have very well have had Walter's samples.
It would be nice to know the actual details of the encounter that Tom had with the imposter. Helen Corbin and Dr. Glover's accounts seem to differ markedly. I suspect both talked to Kollenborn. From Corbin's story, Tom, didn't provide the imposter any notes but told him to contact Corbin. Corbin was never contacted. If the imposter was part of Jake's crew, I suspect that when told to contact the Attorney General, even they got cold feet?
From Glover's account, Kollenborn turned everything (at least copies) over to the imposter so there was no need to pursue the manuscript further.
The question I would have is, how would Jake's bunch even know there was a manuscript and that Corbin and Kollenborn had it? How would they know Roland's name? Walter died on Friday and according to Corbin, the imposter shows up that weekend at Kollenborn's home. Did Walter have loose lips? Seems out of character?
I can't tell when Dr. Glover is suggesting the meeting took place but if it was later, perhaps this type of information could have come from newspapers, the grapevine, etc.
Another quote from the Kollenborn article when they were searching for Gassler's camp. "Gassler had told Corbin he hauled his water in one gallon plastic water jugs. To find Gassler's camp we needed to locate a site with numerous plastic jugs."
There's nothing particularly important about this except LDM spoke of the one gallon plastic jugs in Gassler's camp. It is also interesting that Corbin, or at least Tom used the word hauled. I know it's pretty weak but I would say carried if it were on my person and say hauled if it were on an animal?
Everyone seems to agree that it had been a long time since Gassler had been to his camp on Peter's Mesa. Are we talking a few years (3-4) Many years (5-15) or decades?
Also could anyone speculate on the why, when, how, etc. for Gassler's apparent earlier trip into the mountains from the Peralta Trailhead?
Garry
If we take the above account at face value, it seems to me that Corbin at least (probably Tom also), knew Walter had ore samples before he died. I would guess that perhaps Walter brought the samples along with the manuscript to convince Corbin of the validly of his story? If we believe this story and this scenario, it seems to follow that the stranger who approached Kollenborn with the samples may have very well have had Walter's samples.
It would be nice to know the actual details of the encounter that Tom had with the imposter. Helen Corbin and Dr. Glover's accounts seem to differ markedly. I suspect both talked to Kollenborn. From Corbin's story, Tom, didn't provide the imposter any notes but told him to contact Corbin. Corbin was never contacted. If the imposter was part of Jake's crew, I suspect that when told to contact the Attorney General, even they got cold feet?
From Glover's account, Kollenborn turned everything (at least copies) over to the imposter so there was no need to pursue the manuscript further.
The question I would have is, how would Jake's bunch even know there was a manuscript and that Corbin and Kollenborn had it? How would they know Roland's name? Walter died on Friday and according to Corbin, the imposter shows up that weekend at Kollenborn's home. Did Walter have loose lips? Seems out of character?
I can't tell when Dr. Glover is suggesting the meeting took place but if it was later, perhaps this type of information could have come from newspapers, the grapevine, etc.
Another quote from the Kollenborn article when they were searching for Gassler's camp. "Gassler had told Corbin he hauled his water in one gallon plastic water jugs. To find Gassler's camp we needed to locate a site with numerous plastic jugs."
There's nothing particularly important about this except LDM spoke of the one gallon plastic jugs in Gassler's camp. It is also interesting that Corbin, or at least Tom used the word hauled. I know it's pretty weak but I would say carried if it were on my person and say hauled if it were on an animal?
Everyone seems to agree that it had been a long time since Gassler had been to his camp on Peter's Mesa. Are we talking a few years (3-4) Many years (5-15) or decades?
Also could anyone speculate on the why, when, how, etc. for Gassler's apparent earlier trip into the mountains from the Peralta Trailhead?
Garry
If the imposter was part of Jake's crew, I suspect that when told to contact the Attorney General, even they got cold feet?
GOOD OBSERVATION
Another quote from the Kollenborn article when they were searching for Gassler's camp. "Gassler had told Corbin he hauled his water in one gallon plastic water jugs. To find Gassler's camp we needed to locate a site with numerous plastic jugs."
There's nothing particularly important about this except LDM spoke of the one gallon plastic jugs in Gassler's camp. It is also interesting that Corbin, or at least Tom used the word hauled. I know it's pretty weak but I would say carried if it were on my person and say hauled if it were on an animal?
MY EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN THAT THE LARGER 5-6 GALLON JUGS WOULD BE HAULED IN BY ANIMALS.
HERES THE DEAL WITH WATER . FOLKS HAUL IN CONTAINERS ONLY ONCE. ONCE THEY ARE CACHED PEOPLE WOULD SIMPLY REFILL THEM IN VARIOUS TANKS WHEN WATER IS ABUNDANT. WALTER WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME. LOT EASIER TO JUST CACHE WATER DURING RAINY SEASON RATHER THAN PACK IT IN AT OTHER TIMES.
Everyone seems to agree that it had been a long time since Gassler had been to his camp on Peter's Mesa. Are we talking a few years (3-4) Many years (5-15) or decades?
I DO NOT BELEIVE IT WAS A LONG PERIOD OF TIME AT ALL. WHO IS "EVERYONE"?
Also could anyone speculate on the why, when, how, etc. for Gassler's apparent earlier trip into the mountains from the Peralta Trailhead?
TRIPS(S) NOT TRIP.
NOVICE, YOU ARE ASKING THE QUESTIONS AS IF WALTER MADE IT UP TO THAT COUNTRY ONCE OR TWICE IN HIS LIFETIME. HE MADE IT UP THERE DOZENS AND DOZENS OF TIMES OVER A PERIOD OF DECADES AND WAS VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE AREA AND ITS LANDMARKS. HE WOULD HAVE GONE INTO THE MOUNTAINS FROM THE SOUTH FROM EITHER THE QCU IN HIS YOUNGER DAYS OR PERALTA LATER ON.
OF COURSE, ANYONE AT ALL FAMILIAR WITH THAT COUNTRY AND WHO SPENDS ANY TIME IN THERE DOES NOT ACCESS THAT AREA FROM EITHER PERALTA OR FIRST WATER, THEY TAKE A DIFFERENT WAY ENTIRELY.
GOOD OBSERVATION
Another quote from the Kollenborn article when they were searching for Gassler's camp. "Gassler had told Corbin he hauled his water in one gallon plastic water jugs. To find Gassler's camp we needed to locate a site with numerous plastic jugs."
There's nothing particularly important about this except LDM spoke of the one gallon plastic jugs in Gassler's camp. It is also interesting that Corbin, or at least Tom used the word hauled. I know it's pretty weak but I would say carried if it were on my person and say hauled if it were on an animal?
MY EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN THAT THE LARGER 5-6 GALLON JUGS WOULD BE HAULED IN BY ANIMALS.
HERES THE DEAL WITH WATER . FOLKS HAUL IN CONTAINERS ONLY ONCE. ONCE THEY ARE CACHED PEOPLE WOULD SIMPLY REFILL THEM IN VARIOUS TANKS WHEN WATER IS ABUNDANT. WALTER WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME. LOT EASIER TO JUST CACHE WATER DURING RAINY SEASON RATHER THAN PACK IT IN AT OTHER TIMES.
Everyone seems to agree that it had been a long time since Gassler had been to his camp on Peter's Mesa. Are we talking a few years (3-4) Many years (5-15) or decades?
I DO NOT BELEIVE IT WAS A LONG PERIOD OF TIME AT ALL. WHO IS "EVERYONE"?
Also could anyone speculate on the why, when, how, etc. for Gassler's apparent earlier trip into the mountains from the Peralta Trailhead?
TRIPS(S) NOT TRIP.
NOVICE, YOU ARE ASKING THE QUESTIONS AS IF WALTER MADE IT UP TO THAT COUNTRY ONCE OR TWICE IN HIS LIFETIME. HE MADE IT UP THERE DOZENS AND DOZENS OF TIMES OVER A PERIOD OF DECADES AND WAS VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE AREA AND ITS LANDMARKS. HE WOULD HAVE GONE INTO THE MOUNTAINS FROM THE SOUTH FROM EITHER THE QCU IN HIS YOUNGER DAYS OR PERALTA LATER ON.
OF COURSE, ANYONE AT ALL FAMILIAR WITH THAT COUNTRY AND WHO SPENDS ANY TIME IN THERE DOES NOT ACCESS THAT AREA FROM EITHER PERALTA OR FIRST WATER, THEY TAKE A DIFFERENT WAY ENTIRELY.
Gassler's time in the mountains in his later years.
Peter,
Walter supposedly was the source of the one gallon jug story and LDM found a couple in his camp. Milk jugs full of water just seem to be awfully cumbersome to be carrying on one's person very far in the mountains?
As for the term "everyone", it was a bad choice of words. I was really interested in when Walter was in his camp last before his final trip.
Everyone was Dr. Glover and LDM.
Dr. Glover writes on Page 237 (2004 Edition) (Writing about Gassler entering the mountains from the Peralta Trailhead.)
Anyway that was the basis of my question.
LDM you wrote,
Jake knew Walter and had talked with him on occasions in the mountains.
Do you have a rough time frame for these encounters? How long had Jake been in the mountains. (I'm not very familiar with Jake)
It also sounds like your personal acquaintance with Walter may have also been over a substantial period. Is their anything more you are able to share about that relationship?
Thanks for sharing the scenario on Walter's possible encounter with Jake.
Garry
Walter supposedly was the source of the one gallon jug story and LDM found a couple in his camp. Milk jugs full of water just seem to be awfully cumbersome to be carrying on one's person very far in the mountains?
As for the term "everyone", it was a bad choice of words. I was really interested in when Walter was in his camp last before his final trip.
Everyone was Dr. Glover and LDM.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Dr. Glover writes on Page 237 (2004 Edition) (Writing about Gassler entering the mountains from the Peralta Trailhead.)
LDM wrote previously in this thread,But, Gassler had not been in the mountains for many years and the country had changed, familiar landmarks were gone. More to the point, Gassler was now over 80 years old. The trip was too much for him and he knew he must retreat and abandon his search to get out of the mountains alive.
This was about 4 months before Walter died.I say this because Walt had not been in the mountains or his camp for several years. In January of 1984 I was in Walt's camp and his outfit was still stashed, right where he had left it although it was deteriorating.
Anyway that was the basis of my question.
LDM you wrote,
Jake knew Walter and had talked with him on occasions in the mountains.
Do you have a rough time frame for these encounters? How long had Jake been in the mountains. (I'm not very familiar with Jake)
It also sounds like your personal acquaintance with Walter may have also been over a substantial period. Is their anything more you are able to share about that relationship?
Thanks for sharing the scenario on Walter's possible encounter with Jake.
Garry
Re: Gassler's time in the mountains in his later years.
Absolutely true. Empty milk jugs, however...Walter supposedly was the source of the one gallon jug story and LDM found a couple in his camp. Milk jugs full of water just seem to be awfully cumbersome to be carrying on one's person very far in the mountains?
Walt Gassler
Seems odd a man would take gold into the mountains when the purpose of his trip was to validate his theory of where the mine was located. If he was on to something importent there would be plenty of time later on to compare samples.
One would think a gentleman of his age would want to save space in his pack to bring samples out not carry them in. Anyway any field examination of the ore would at best be a guess. If he found something signficant who would care what the samples he had indicated. The proof was in the deposit and the validity of his reasoning.
Also given the pack of animals(Jake and friends) in the area I wouldn`t want to have any gold on my person those jackels could get to. If I found anything I would leave it in place and come back later.
Then the question would be how about the gold Mr. K saw? Maybe Gassler did find something significant and never took anything with him.
Who knows.
EK
One would think a gentleman of his age would want to save space in his pack to bring samples out not carry them in. Anyway any field examination of the ore would at best be a guess. If he found something signficant who would care what the samples he had indicated. The proof was in the deposit and the validity of his reasoning.
Also given the pack of animals(Jake and friends) in the area I wouldn`t want to have any gold on my person those jackels could get to. If I found anything I would leave it in place and come back later.
Then the question would be how about the gold Mr. K saw? Maybe Gassler did find something significant and never took anything with him.
Who knows.
EK
>>Seems odd a man would take gold into the mountains when the purpose of his trip was to validate his theory of where the mine was located<<
WHY ?
. If he was on to something importent there would be plenty of time later on to compare samples.
I THINK WALTER REALIZED THAT HIS "TIME WAS SHORT". THERE WAS HARDLY "PLENTY OF TIME LATER" TO MAKE ANOTHER TRIP IN.
WHY ?
. If he was on to something importent there would be plenty of time later on to compare samples.
I THINK WALTER REALIZED THAT HIS "TIME WAS SHORT". THERE WAS HARDLY "PLENTY OF TIME LATER" TO MAKE ANOTHER TRIP IN.
Walt Gasser
LDM,
Guess this all hinges then on what the word proof means. Assuming Walt was on to something significant then the proof of it being the LDM would be the putting together of the clues so they fit and led one to the location Gasser had identified.
Still don`t see the point of carrying gold to a deposit you already know about to begin with. Would think Gassler had plenty of opportunities to have samples analyzed, etc., Carrying gold in just seems a waste of time.
Agree with you that Gasser knew exactly what he was doing. Time just ran out on him.
Furthermore if the deposit was the LDM then the ore would not have looked like what was under the dutchman`s bed. It would have looked like stars in the night. You know the one.
Who knows maybe the clues and Mr X`s visit to Mr. K was intended to hide things not uncover them.
EK
Guess this all hinges then on what the word proof means. Assuming Walt was on to something significant then the proof of it being the LDM would be the putting together of the clues so they fit and led one to the location Gasser had identified.
Still don`t see the point of carrying gold to a deposit you already know about to begin with. Would think Gassler had plenty of opportunities to have samples analyzed, etc., Carrying gold in just seems a waste of time.
Agree with you that Gasser knew exactly what he was doing. Time just ran out on him.
Furthermore if the deposit was the LDM then the ore would not have looked like what was under the dutchman`s bed. It would have looked like stars in the night. You know the one.
Who knows maybe the clues and Mr X`s visit to Mr. K was intended to hide things not uncover them.
EK
Something is bothering me. If Walter had went in the mountains once, and realized he wasen't up to the task, why would he go in again un-attended? That dosen't make sense, unless in a fit of desperation he threw all caution and reasoning to the wind.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Walter's Ore Samples
LDM made an interesting comment in an above posting that Crazy Jake knew Kochera. It is possible that Walter also knew Kochera as they were all searching the same relative small area during the same time period (Kochera found his gold on Peter's Mesa). If so, Walter may have been able to obtain a sample of Kochera's ore which would have then been the sample found in his backpack. However, it is also possible that Walter found his own "Kochera-like" sample(s) in that area. I think an earlier thread on where Edwards found bodies from the Indian battle in the early 1800's could make it feasable that some mule loads of ore were dropped on Peters Mesa to be found later by Kochera and others.
Who knows for sure - maybe Walter just carried LDM ore for good luck!
I don't think that Walter had found what he thought to be the LDM prior to his last trip into the Supers. His manuscript reads like he believed he had at last solved the location of the mine with new (to him) information from Tom Kollenborn's and Barney Barnard's books that would pinpoint the LDM. On page 50 in his manuscript, Walter writes:
"I still think the other and richer mine is in a closed up small canyon or draw west of the head of Peters Canyon where the storehouse was located and that draw is now completely blocked by boulders and never will be found unless you have these facts and will have to make sure it exists and then only invest."
Doesn't sound like the wording of a man that has already found the LDM. From Barney Barnard's map, the old storehouse is at the mouth of Cottonwood Canyon where it joins Peters Canyon and due West of it would put one in Pistol Canyon No. 2 (Pistol Canyon No. 1 is the next canyon North of this one). Walter could have been planning to search either of these canyons from his writings. This is still very confined to Walter's search area although it was on the other side of Peters Mesa from where he had his earlier claim/mine.
Food for thought.
Roger
Who knows for sure - maybe Walter just carried LDM ore for good luck!
I don't think that Walter had found what he thought to be the LDM prior to his last trip into the Supers. His manuscript reads like he believed he had at last solved the location of the mine with new (to him) information from Tom Kollenborn's and Barney Barnard's books that would pinpoint the LDM. On page 50 in his manuscript, Walter writes:
"I still think the other and richer mine is in a closed up small canyon or draw west of the head of Peters Canyon where the storehouse was located and that draw is now completely blocked by boulders and never will be found unless you have these facts and will have to make sure it exists and then only invest."
Doesn't sound like the wording of a man that has already found the LDM. From Barney Barnard's map, the old storehouse is at the mouth of Cottonwood Canyon where it joins Peters Canyon and due West of it would put one in Pistol Canyon No. 2 (Pistol Canyon No. 1 is the next canyon North of this one). Walter could have been planning to search either of these canyons from his writings. This is still very confined to Walter's search area although it was on the other side of Peters Mesa from where he had his earlier claim/mine.
Food for thought.
Roger