Walter Gassler mystery.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

Thanks for the info. I have heard it here before, maybe from you. Bad memory.

Here's the deal Randy: Randy, Joe, Mike M., Don, Terry, Late 49er, Lazarus, Walker 12, Bill 711 and a number of other folks have all had
zero (0) other members posting from their IP.

On the other hand, folks who have mindlessly attacked me, ad nauseam,
are piggy-backed onto a number of other names. For instance: One other member had 16 posts under his name. Under the other names he has used are: TGH 52 posts, ILoveJoeRibaudo 8 posts and Peter E 1 post.

Now this happens in almost every case with the combination of "Joe Haters", but few come up with even one "other name used".

Now that is not to say that what you have said is untrue. I know that in random cases the the same IP can show up with anyones name attached to it.

If you think the above case can be atributed to random chance, let me know. The other thing that bothers me, is that it is always the same type of members that are grouped like that. It does not happen with anyone else, other than a random (few) occasions. No grouping of like minds?, no large numbers.

As always, if someone can show me I am wrong in coming to the conclusions I have come to, I will apologize.

Joe Ribaudo

[TGH]

Oh, bother, you ARE being cranky and crazy again..... I was worried about this.

I know its hard for you, but remember, its a FORUM, its NOT life and death.

Now calm down, get a good nights sleep and you will hopefully feel a little bit better in the morning.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

You are, of course, correct. It all means nothing in the overall picture.
That picture is just a snapshot of who you, I, and the others here are.
Just trying to clear up the picture of the man behind all those faces.

With me, I say what I have to say and sign my name at the bottom of the post. With you, you hide in the shadows with a number of vile personalities and shout lies from anonymity. That equals cowardice, because you need others, even if you have to make them up.

Just tell your lies, make your accusations and sign your name at the bottom. I have no idea why you continue your charade, unless you think no one really knows it's you.

The people who have stood up for me are real. Think of the folks who came in here and joined your attack. That would be folks like Jan, Ward, Wyatt and his band of forty thieves......You know the rest of that low life list, hell, half of them were you.

I know this Forum means nothing to you. That's why you are doing your best to run it into the ground. It isn't my life, but I hate to see an interesting and informative place turned into Peter's Toilet.

I need a break from your crap.

Joe Ribaudo

[TGH]

Very very good. Now let folks get back to talking about the LDM and you go rest up. All this silliness must be wearing you out.

Thx !

[novice]

I took this account of Gassler going into the mountains on his last trip from Kollenborn's Chronicles. Don't know whether it is helpful or what Tom's sources are but it seems to be a different take than what some feel happened. Apache Junction News March 20-26, 2006 (On Line).

The Sunday evening (May 1, 1984) prior to his trip Walter had called Corbin and Kollenborn to ask if they could make the trip into the mountains with him. Neither Corbin nor Kollenborn could make it on such short notice.

"Walt had his wife drive him out to First Water trail for a hike into Peter's Mesa. He chatted with Dan Russell at Charlesbois Spring about noon on Tuesday May 3, 1984 and then hiked up the shortcut trail from Charlesbois Spring to the main trail to Peter's Mesa. His body was found near the junction of the cutoff trail and the Peter's Mesa Trail by Don Shade and Gene Baker on May 4, 1984. Walt probably died on Tuesday leaving Charlesbois Spring."

Tom doesn't mention anything about Walter's camp being already set up? Since it sounds unlikely Walter would have been hiking and carrying his tent, cot, tarp, clothes, food, extra water etc., could he have sent someone else (Packer with his camping supplies) in beforehand and he actually did hike in but never made it to his camp?

In Tom's account, Dan Russell saw Walter hiking about noon on Tuesday? Tom introduces two new individuals (at least for me) into the story. Dan Russell and Gene Baker. Can anyone expand on these individuals?

Another side bar in the story is that Corbin asked Gassler if he had ever taken samples of gold ore into the mountains to match up with the outcrops around or near his camp? Gassler told Corbin he had not. (Corbin only met Gassler once but felt he was telling the truth)

Kollenborn and Corbin did not know where Gassler's camp was and they were unable to find it on a trip in 1986.

Apparently it had been some time (a few years?) since Gassler had been to his camp. LDM visited the camp in May of 1984 shortly after Walter's death. His observations regarding the fact that the camp was already set up and had been rifled certainly gives one pause whether Tom had the full story?

Garry

[TGH]

Tom doesn't mention anything about Walter's camp being already set up? Since it sounds unlikely Walter would have been hiking and carrying his tent, cot, tarp, clothes, food, extra water etc., could he have sent someone else (Packer with his camping supplies) in beforehand and he actually did hike in but never made it to his camp?

MOST FOLKS THAT ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THEIR DUTCH HUNTING HAVE CACHES OF FOOD, WATER, TENTS, CAMPING EQUIPMENT AND SUCH STASHED IN VARIOUS PLACES OF THE MOUNTAINS. I CAN GO IN TOMMORROW AND FIND STUFF THAT I LEFT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO IN VARIOUS PLACES. I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT WALTER HAD SUPPLIES AND CACHES IN VARIOUS LOCATIONS

Another side bar in the story is that Corbin asked Gassler if he had ever taken samples of gold ore into the mountains to match up with the outcrops around or near his camp? Gassler told Corbin he had not. (Corbin only met Gassler once but felt he was telling the truth)

READ THE QUESTION CAREFULLY AND YOU WILL SEE THAT WALTER WAS MOST LIKELY TELLING THE TRUTH.....HE WAS NOT TRYING TO MATCH UP ORE SAMPLES WITH OUTCROPS AROUND OR NEAR HIS CAMP SO TECHNICALLY HE WAS INDEED TELLING THE TRUTH.

[djui5]

READ THE QUESTION CAREFULLY AND YOU WILL SEE THAT WALTER WAS MOST LIKELY TELLING THE TRUTH.....HE WAS NOT TRYING TO MATCH UP ORE SAMPLES WITH OUTCROPS AROUND OR NEAR HIS CAMP SO TECHNICALLY HE WAS INDEED TELLING THE TRUTH.

Makes sense. He didn't say if Walter said "No, I've never packed ore samples into the mountains", or if he said "No, I was not trying to match samples with outcrops around my camp". He just simply said no.


Has anyone though/discounted the idea that someone found his camp and was using it since no-one had been to the camp in years? Maybe someone stumbled across it and decided to make use of it?

I also like the idea that Walt contracted someone to set up his came before he hiked in.

[TGH]

Has anyone though/discounted the idea that someone found his camp and was using it since no-one had been to the camp in years? Maybe someone stumbled across it and decided to make use of it?

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. I JUST DO NOT THINK THAT WAS THE CASE HERE. I THINK GASSLER SET UP HIS CAMP AFTER BEING PACKED IN, PUTTERED AROUND A BIT AND EITHER DIED CLOSE TO SOMEONES AREA OF INTEREST...AND HIS BODY WAS MOVED..... OR HE DIED WHILE BEING CHASED OUT OF THE AREA. I DO NOT THINK HE DIED ON THE WAY IN.
ALSO THINK HE DID NOT FIND ANY ORE UP THERE THE LAST GO-ROUND..ANY ORE HE MIGHT HAVE HAD I AM CONFIDENT HE TOOK IN WITH HIM.



I also like the idea that Walt contracted someone to set up his came before he hiked in

HE MAY HAVE HAD SOMEONE PACK HIMSELF IN FOR A WAYS...THAT MAKES SENSE...BUT AS FAR AS SOMEONE GOING IN BEFORE HIM TO "SET UP" HIS CAMP...I DO NOT THINK THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE CASE HERE.

YOU CANT APPRECIATE THE REMOTENESS OF THE AREA AND THE DEDICATION IT TAKES TO GET AND STAY THERE FOR ANY PERIOD OF TIME UNTIL YOU DO SO YOURSELF. PACKERS CHARGE BIG BUCKS TO PACK IN FOLKS UP THERE AND THEY TEND NOT TO LINGER.

ITS NOT A NICE LITTLE HIKE FROM FIRST WATER TO PARKERS PASS WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT COUNTRY.

[LDM]

LDM

[TGH]

Just to back up what LDM is saying a little. I have hiked that exact route on more than one occasion. 1st Water to Parker to Bull Pass to Charlyboy is doable. Charleyboy to the Salt Flats...... after hiking 1st Water to Parker to Bull Pass to Charleyboy............ is all hell. That last climb, that NEVER seems to end.

I am in pretty fair shape , but that last climb ...ooof

[novice]

I'm having trouble reading and understanding the Medical Examiner's Report posted in the member archives. Below is what I believe it records but for me the writing leaves something to be desired and I'm not familiar with the acronyms or procedures.

PCSO: Pinal County Sheriffs Office?

REASON: (For the Medical Examiner's Office Involvement?) It was an unattended death? (No Doctor was involved?)

Walter Gassler's Street Address: Blacked Out for Confidentiality?

Time the Death Occurred: (Notation Found?) (18:06) Was this the time the Officials in the Chopper reached the body?

Does the Time 18:46 represent when the Medical Examiner's Office was notified?

What does M. E. C. Stand for? Medical Examiner's ??????

Would Barry Harrington of the Pinal County Sheriff's Office been the investigator on the scene? (With the Chopper?)

What does Red Tag indicate?

The examination by Dr. Olsen was performed at the Kublerin [sic] Mortuary in Florence? Does anyone know the correct spelling of the Mortuary and was it in Florence?

Additional Information: Dead 2-3 days. Go into Superstitions on 4/5/84 on APS Chopper?

The date is obviously in error (Should be 5/4/84) but what does APS stand for? Whose Chopper?

Also there seems to be no indication of when the actual examination was made and the 2-3 day time frame would have limited meaning? Unless it was that evening when the body arrived? What does two days mean? (48 hours and over?) What would the standard operating practice and nomenclature be?

From where Walt's body was found, is there a place to put a chopper down near by?

Any help on bad assumptions, misunderstanding or additional information will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Garry

[LDM]

LDM

[murphy]

How would Don Shade know if the body was rigid if he never got off his horse?

[LDM]

LDM

[Jesse J. Feldman]

Novice,

Gene Baker worked for the Ok Corral Pack Stables, drifting through with his family. He was a good hand, a good cowboy, and horseman. I don't remember how long he worked for the Ok. Probably three years plus. I don't know where he went, but if I remember right about eight years ago we heard through the vine that he had a jeep accident and died.

Jesse

[Knun]

Garry,

Sorry, but with this one Ancestry.com won't help. Just too recent.

Maybe call the medical examiner's office or the Sheriff's department and see what they say.

[novice]

Thanks All,

The notation "Dead 2-3 days" wasn't fitting the timeline, as I understood it. I now sense there is little information on the Medical Examiner's sheet that is much help. The only item that seems to be noteworthy is the time of arrival of the Chopper. May 4, 1984 at 6:08 PM.

As far as the timeline goes, I'm in worse trouble than I thought!

Kollenborn and Corbin got the call on Sunday inviting them to join Walter. According to Tom, Walter hiked in from First Water on Tuesday, May 3, 1984 and chatted with Dan Russell about noon at Charlesbois Spring. The body was found May 4, 1984 [Wednesday].

My old DOS software program yields a day of the month for May 4, 1984 as being Friday.

I now believe Kollenborn has something in error. I'm not even sure when Gassler's entered the mountains? If he went in on Tuesday or even Wednesday it would certainly give the different scenarios more time to play out. We might even be able to return to the "Dead 2-3 days" notation and give consideration that Dr. Olsen was correct on the time of death? I guess I wonder why a Doctor, working in the Medical Examiner's Office, would be that far off. I know there was no autopsy but still?

I suspect there are newspaper articles or other documents that might shed some additional information on when Gassler entered the Mountains? Anyone?

Jesse,

Were Don Shade and Gene Baker working at the OK Corral when Gassler died? Do you know whether Baker was with Shade when the body was found? This information may be in Shade's Book but I don't have it and I apologize if this is all well know information in the LDM community. Perhaps I'll find a copy one of these days.

Garry

[TGH]

>>Walter hiked in from First Water on Tuesday, May 3, 1984 and chatted with Dan Russell about noon at Charlesbois Spring. <<

There is NO way Gassler hiked in at daybreak on foot from First Water and made it to Charleyboy at noon.

No way.... no how..... no chance....UNLESS he had help getting there.

[LDM]

LDM

[zentull]

I think because of the fact that he died of natural causes for all appearances, there was not much care given in the report. It seemed to be an easy case. Gassler is listed as 82 at time of death, but would have been 81 as according to the stated time of death. There were few questions of what may have occured, so the paperwork reflects the lack of concern. We are also dealing with the weekend here.

The body was removed on the 5th and discovered on the 4th. Tom Kollenborn was approached on either the 5th or 6th supposedly by Gasslers "son". The report probably works off the time of notification, so Gassler was found early afternoon I suppose. That leaves the body unattended until the next morning at least I suppose. If the ore that Kollenborn is shown came from Gasslers pack, then it was to verify that it would be possibly Superstition ore.

The camp was probably gone through to see what he was up to at the time of death. The camp was probably checked out by the deputies, if not that would point again to a lack of concern over his death. Chances are someone had the ore, but no background story on it.

[Jesse J. Feldman]

Novice,

Gene Baker had lived and worked at the Ok Corral. Don had come and gone through the years. Sometimes he stayed as much as years. Don was in his upper years the whole time I knew him, and he was not any kind of person to survive by himself with livestock. Gene was his guide, and I suppose, as the story goes, that he was along side Don at the discovery of Gassler's body. The funny thing is, I do not remember why Don had wanted to go into that area of the mountains. His search area was about five miles away. Anyone know why Don was there? I would guess that Don had wanted to check something out in the area on a one time trip. As I understant it, Gasslers body was at a little flat on the Peter's Pack Trail, above the Dutchman Trail. This would indicate that Don wanted to go up to Peter's Mesa.

Jesse

[TGH]

Jesse,

You make a good point of the location that the body was found in. Shade, obviously , would not just be able to see the body from the Charleyboy Spring area. He would have had to climb up the trail a good ways to find the body where it was found. Maybe he just felt like riding up that way that day, but it is odd that he would have climbed up there for "fun".

P

[novice]

I had just read Kollenborn's article when I posted. I would have been well served to have done a little homework and reread the Glover and Corbin accounts before posting. Dr. Glover has a rough outline of the few day preceding Gassler's death that seem to fit the "official story"? Dr. Glover interviewed Tom Kollenborn and Roland Gassler for portions of his story and of course in Helen Corbin's books, she was drawing on first hand information from Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn. Below is what I gathered.

1983, December 13 – Gassler visits Bob Corbin's office in Phoenix and gives him his "diary" of his search for the LDM. (This is the only time Corbin ever meets Gassler and apparently he has never heard of him before. Kollenborn is familiar with the name and his friendship with Tex Barkley but has never met or talked to Walter Gassler.) (Gassler is somewhat familiar with the activities of both Corbin and Kollenborn regarding the LDM). It also seems likely that Corbin shared the contents of the "Diary" with Kollenborn.

1984, April 29, (Sunday Evening) – Gassler contacts Kollenborn and is trying to reach Bob Corbin. Informed that Corbin is unavailable, Gassler tells Tom he has solved the puzzle and invites him to accompany him into the mountains. According to Tom, Gassler is planning on leaving the next morning (Monday, April 30, 1984) for the Superstitions. Gassler had apparently ask Corbin and Kollenborn to accompany him earlier but on those occasions they also declined to join him. Since the weather was getting hot, Gassler was anxious to get into the Mountains.

1984, April 30, (Monday) – Gassler's departure for the Superstitions is delayed. I believe some on the forum have suggested it was raining and that could have been the reason for the delay?

1984, May 1, (Tuesday) – Gassler's wife drove Walter to the First Water Trail Head and dropped him off for his trip into the Mountains. (Roland Gassler told Dr. Glover that his father did not go into the Mountains on Monday but that he went in on Tuesday, May 1. He seems to have also related that the trip was to last three days and his mother was to pick Walter up. Again Roland seems to be the source of the story that Walter did not drive and threatened to take a bus to Apache Junction and walk from there if his wife wouldn't transport him to the trailhead.)

Dr. Glover's speculation was that Walter hiked from First Water to Charlebois Springs where he camped for the night, Tuesday, May 1, 1984. (In the Notes and Sources portion of Dr. Glover's book)

He certainly was not in any physical condition to be attempting that hike into the mountains but guys can be awfully stubborn and macho. It's a common malady.

May 2, (Wednesday) – Walter continued his hike up towards Peter's Mesa and suffered a heart attack and died along the trail. This part of the story is probably derived from the Medical Examiner's report.

1984, May 4, (Friday) – Gene Baker and Don Shade find the body and by the time that Dr. Olsen examined the body Gassler has been dead 2 or 3 days.

For me this seems to be a reasonable framework to start from?

I know LDM stated that Peter was stating the obvious regarding the terrain but there are a few of us (at least one) with no clue about the topography and difficulties so please continue to share those thoughts.

I believe that Roland Gassler provided the information that the trip was to last three days and for me that would mean that Walter was due to return on Thursday evening? The question was asked, why were Baker and Shade on the trail up to Peter's Mesa? When Walt didn't show up Thursday evening did his family contact some of the locals in the area and Baker and Shade were indeed searching for him the next day? Surely Walter's wife had a general idea of where he was going and was concerned? The family may not have contacted the authorities since they were not sure that he wasn't just late in returning.

Dan Russell is still an enigma?

Garry

[LDM]

LDM

[Jesse J. Feldman]

I have a problem with Gassler only spending three days and how this story is unfolding. Looks like to me that Gassler had intended on confirming what he thought to be the LDM, but that his elderly situation prohibited him from keeping his planned schedule of reaching camp the first day, an easy hike in good weather for a strong hiker (LDM's belief that the camp was set up for Gassler). Did Gassler spend a night without a sleeping bag and other useful overnight items at Charlebois Springs?

LDM,
Is it possible that someone else was using Gasslers camp and gear, or that he was friendly with the people using the camp, and they invited him to join them, or that Gassler finally did recrute others to help, and that that story is still lost?

I have another thought that can be correlated to the family situation. Sometimes elderly dogs vanish. They leave at their own free will and never come back, never to be seen again. It is their way of dying, whether they know it or not. Of course this does not explain the gold ore, however, it does explain Gassler's drive for one last hurah, even trying to involve Corbin and Kollenborn. What are your thoughts All?

Jesse