Walter Gassler mystery.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Matthew,

The ability of someone in their 80s and in poor health is never something I would care to bet on.

Obie Stoker in his 80s was more capable than most men in their 40s, when it came to moving over the bumpy ground in the Superstitions.
Not sure how many folks are still alive who tried to keep up with Obie in there, but I would guess any that are would concure.

I think Sal may have some experience with Obie, but not sure. As for his health......it was always bad. Bad ticker, bad nerves, bad lights and mushy brain pan. Basically just an old mountain goat. In his 90s he was still trying to get a young girl to marry him. As I understand it, he finally got a young gal in Florida to do it. Had to get her parents to agree.

Was Walt Gassler fair haired and light skinned? Blonde or red hair would not be good.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

I was told something similar along what LDM posted. That has always kept me intrigued with Walter Gassler. I feel that Gassler died elsewhere and was brought to where he would be found. Those who knew where his camp was located would most likely remain quiet.

I would like to add that those who placed Gasslers body where it was may or may not be the same as who was spotted near the body. It should also be noted that the body was left behind and there is no accounting for what happened afterwards.

It is odd that there is no account for any blistering or other effects I would expect according to the most well known public accounts of the state of his body. We have simply a quick cursory examination from 2 individuals who never got down to closely inspect the body.

Nice storms coming in right now from the south and west, lots of lightning. I can smell the rain coming across the mountains now. It sure can use it, it has dried out severly around here. Even the mesquites been wilted and dieing out everywhere.

[Mike McChesney]

I just read this on another forum...not sure if it helps anyone..



"When Walter Gassler was in his eighties, he came back to the Superstitions , because he knew just where the LDM was located. He was so old, nobody wanted to pack him in. He walked in by himself. "In May of 1984, he knew exactly where to find the LDM, and the next thing anybody saw of him was on May 4th, when Don Shade and a guide from the OK Corral were riding up Charlebois Ridge and found his dead body sitting upright on a rock, just leaning back against another rock. Up the ridge a ways, they saw a man darting in and out of the brush, but couldn't see him well enough to get a description. Don Shade said he knew who the man was, but was afraid that if he told, he would be killed next time he went into the mountains."

Before going into the mountains, he had loaned Tom Kollenborn some manuscripts and a map (I think). "

Hey! You're quoting me on TNet!

The one question that has bothered me more than anything else about Walt Gassler's death, is about Roland's impersonator. The only way he could possibly have known that Tom Kollenborn had his notes would be:

1. If Kollenborn had told somebody else, and after they heard about Gassler's death, they got somebody unknown to Kollenborn to pose as his son to go and get the papers.

2. Gassler told this guy about loaning the papers to Kollenborn before heading into the mountains ( I understand he told several people he knew exactly where the LDM was, and he was going to walk straight to it).

3. This guy talked to Gassler while in the mountains (make what you will of that), and got the information on the papers.

Anybody here ever talk to Tom Kollenborn about the subject?

Mike

[murphy]

Mike,
The impresion that I got from the last entries in Gassler's notes was that he had sent copies of his notes to Kollenborn and Bob Corbin in an effort to convince them to go with him into the Mountains.

[buscar]

"Then there came a time in the 40’s when I told Tex I just could not afford to keep this up any longer. By this time, I had married, had two small children, and worked for a while till I got ahead a little, then take off and go back into the mountains. I had lost my car, was behind usually on rent, and it was either the family or the Dutchman. I decided on my family. I told Tex, this is my last go see, I would quit for good before it got me. He said wait a minute Walter, I show you positive proof that the mine is back there, he turned around and walked off toward the shack, and I could see the way he walked the determination and the way he acted, that it was something very important and very close to him, that he must have held secret for a long time, guess he acted kind of desperate, he stepped on the veranda, and as he did, his son Bill and Brownie Holmes came around the house. I guess they had been down at the smithy drinking, they were already that early in the morning.....loaded and Tex saw them, made a abrupt turn about, and came back to me and said, I show you some other time, I can’t while these two are around. That was the last time , I ever saw good old Tex."

buscar

[TGH]

[buscar]

“When I told Epifanio I was going to quit looking for the mine and leave it, he said don’t go, keep looking up there, you will find it. Did he know? Tex told me he knew where it was, he used to be a muleskinner for the Silver King, but he said he would never tell, he had that Indian believe it was bad medicine to tell, however I think to pacify Tex he told that he would tell him on his deathbed so says Tex. Since I was away all those years, I never knew how Epifanio died and where or if Tex was with him.”

buscar

[djui5]

So, the question begs...just what is "positive proof" ? This of course, means that Tex was going to show Walter...........

Theres only one answer , folks.

Yeah, gold

Hey! You're quoting me on TNet!

Hey Mike Hope you don't mind

Knowing the mine is there, and know where it is are 2 totally different things...

Maybe someone, whoever was dodging in and out of the bushes, followed the "goods" and realized Kollenborn had them, then made the move to get them?

[eldorado]

Who knows. Maybe Gassler accomplished, with a little help from his friends, exactly what he set out to.

Mr. K gets to sniff the gold, Mr. Corbin gets a hot new clue list, nothing changes except the ldm becomes even more difficult to find.

A sting. And a very good one.


E.

[zentull]

It took Walt Gassler decades before he wrote down what he wanted anyone to know and that was written as a means of introduction. We have no idea of his conclusions at his next step in exact form. Walt was pretty savy on how to run under the radar. When you look at his sources and resources closely, it is amazing. He learned importantly to follow and learn from the mistakes others made.

Whoever might have got some of the notes Walt had on him, realized they needed the other reference points he was alluding to which consisted of his manuscript in part. They may have gotten the information through the news of Tom Kollenborns involvement. However even reading the manuscript leaves me to believe the were a number of important things that he kept to himself and were mental notes. He may have disclosed some of these things in private, but I feel he still took a few important details to the grave. I do not know if Walt thought he had the mine pinpointed or the next steps in his process. Either way, he was looking for help and/or someone to pass the torch to.

[TGH]

[zentull]

I would think as well that we could assume that Walt may have died from natural causes and Jakes guys moved him to a better location for discovery, if for nothing else but to keep everyone off their backs. With the reputation that preceded Jakes crews, it is no wonder that someone may keep quiet on the whole incident.

The after effect of Walts camp being searched may have been for several reasons. Discovery of information pertaining to his search or perhaps the circumstances of his death. It would seem though in that time frame, since changes were happening concerning the parameters of everyones search, that anything is possible. Walt appeared to take the path of soliciting for help. Others may have looked to restrict others in their search.

[Joe Ribaudo]

All,

"So, the question begs...just what is "positive proof" ? This of course, means that Tex was going to show Walter...........

Theres only one answer , folks." TGH

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe ore is the answer to that question, but it's only a guess. Would ore proove to Walt that the LDM was located in a specific place and he was searching it?

What if Tex had what Ruth almost showed Gertrude Barkley? He said he was going to show her something that would "prove" he was correct. I believe he had already shown his map(s) to others. What else did he have?

What could Tex have, without finding the LDM that would be proof positive? Without being able to tie a piece of ore......directly to the LDM, it would need to be a map or document that no one would doubt.

If Dr. Ruth had some of that important evidence memorized, and not on paper, the results would have been dead-end anfter dead-end. You think you are at the final location, but in reality you are only half way there.

Could that important missing evidence be the cactus marker? Is there a cave about 200' across from the marker? Anyone else know the answer to that question?

I am not sure there is only one answer to Peter's question. Can't hurt to consider some others.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

Positive proof could be any of the missing contents from Julias bag that were acquired from Gottfried or someone else.

Could be the notes or map from Ruth.

Could be something Tex found that appears to be conclusive in a specific area.

Could be anything that pointed to Waltz or Peralta presence in a specific area.

I have run around like a dog chasing his tail with that and could be wrong on all accounts.

[buscar]

From Gassler’s notes

“She also told me of the evening before Ruth’s disappearance, she said it was a drizzly day that evening when Ruth came in to the ranch wearing a trenchcoat, (Tex was in Phoenix shipping cattle) and told her to tell her husband not to worry or hurry about him as he had found 2 guides to take him into the mountains, cowpunchers-prospectors, she begged him to wait a couple more days and Tex would see getting him in safely, but he said his time was running short and he could not wait, (how true) then Ruth told her I will show you how easy it is to find the mine he reached into his inner pocket of his trench coat and started to pull out a brown manilla envelope and started to pull out the map he had then suddenly he changed his mind and said no I will show you when I come back just how easy it was, of course he died and the map was not found, until lately when Mr. Magill, detective prospector said he heard from a lady in Tortilla Flat who said she had the map?”

Is it possible that the manila envelope was the “positive proof” Tex was going to show Walter???

buscar

[buscar]

“Petrarch claimed he only went (Waltz) back there 2 or 3 times being afraid to get caught by the Apaches, and I don’t think he ever seriously looked for the mine since he had all that loose gold, but he probably figured it was some where around there. Dick Holmes told Tex Barkeley he left 6-7 bags back there buried and hidden. So that would mean that Bob Gurman’s book was true as well as Herman Petrarch which he got from his brother Riney, they had no reason to believe otherwise since Waltz still had some gold when he died. Holmes had some of it. Dick Holmes told Tex Barkeley one time if he knew or ever came across a grove of trees on a small mountain side to let him know and he make it worth while for him. Tex knew alright but he told me he had absolutely no use for Holmes and never told him or Brownie anything this is to me the only plausible story of Jacob Waltzs mine and gold, or why it was never found after all these years, everybody is concentrating on the country around Weaver’s Needle, west of La Barge, I still think those were only the caches for the keeping of the gold, whatever from the Peraltas or other Spanish sources, I suspect even Ruths map was to one of these not the actual mine and that also depends on Tex Barkeleys heresay to which I will refer later on, I also doubt if one person above will ever be able to uncover the said mine by himself.”

buscar

[zentull]

I don't know if ore would be proof positive of the mine. I believe the notion of Ruths maps or directions is just a nice romantic touch on the storyline. Saying I found a piece of Gold in the Superstitions,regardless of the area, does not mean it came from the LDM or the Peralta mines.

Where did Tex's collection wind up? As I remeber it was the resource for any dutch hunter in his day. Would it be something that you would be able to put your finger on immediately ? Is it sitting on a shelf somewhere keeping its secret ?

There is one wild possibility though......Tex found the Peralta HQ and/or Waltz's camp and treated himself to the caches that Waltz was aiming for on his last trip. The sacks and/or few last pieces of ore may have been the proof. It could be something from the camp that directly ties in Waltz, He had proof of the Mexican and Apache prescence already. It also explains the rise from cowhand to successful ranch owner in a short time. It would explain Tex's constant vigil over the area, his purchases of the surrounding ranches and the reasoning for keeping guys on the payroll that he was less than enamored with. The possibilty of his working for Bark in that early time frame prior to purchasing the ranch gives the whole thing a bit of weight. For a guy who just waltzed in and picked up the ranch, he appears ahead of the game for such a greenhorn. It also adds validity to Bark and Ely leaving the search to the younger and more able. Could of heard that somewhere, had one of those LDM dreams or just made it up........take your pick.

[djui5]

I don't know if ore would be proof positive of the mine.

It would to some people if it matched ore found under Waltz's bed.

There is one wild possibility though......Tex found the Peralta HQ and/or Waltz's camp and treated himself to the caches that Waltz was aiming for on his last trip. The sacks and/or few last pieces of ore may have been the proof. It could be something from the camp that directly ties in Waltz, He had proof of the Mexican and Apache prescence already. It also explains the rise from cowhand to successful ranch owner in a short time. It would explain Tex's constant vigil over the area, his purchases of the surrounding ranches and the reasoning for keeping guys on the payroll that he was less than enamored with. The possibilty of his working for Bark in that early time frame prior to purchasing the ranch gives the whole thing a bit of weight. For a guy who just waltzed in and picked up the ranch, he appears ahead of the game for such a greenhorn. It also adds validity to Bark and Ely leaving the search to the younger and more able. Could of heard that somewhere, had one of those LDM dreams or just made it up........take your pick.

This is good, very very good!!!

[buscar]

“Them there is the cave Waltz used to claim he stayed while back there that would be on Malapais Mountain, facing La Barge. He claimed he could see Weavers Needle and Miners Needle from his cave and water his mule by the old water hole that would be the permanent pot hole down below in Peters Canyon. Barkeley told me you can see 1500 feet straight down into the river and the only way he ever found the cave was when following a couple of wild horses one early morning, that led him right to it.”

Perhaps Tex had found conclusive evidence (positive proof) in the cave???


buscar

[Joe Ribaudo]

Buscar,

Do you know where the "cave" story originated?

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Buscar,

There is a place in the mountains where a rock-face has calved off and created a large cave-like, maybe four feet across at the bottom, space. The top leans against the new rock-face. It's big enough to stand up in and a bit more.

Approaching this spot, it is invisible until you are at one end or the other.
Inside, there is a seat made of rocks with a flat rock on top. The site is so old, that the fire-pit is hard to discern. Firewood is stacked close to the seat. The wood looks like dinosaur bones, white and fragile.

Within a short distance, you will find an old mine. It has a claim marker in front, and has been sealed up with rocks. All of this is in a very lightly traveled area of the Superstitions.

Someone found something worth digging for, at some period of time. I doubt the "green-suits" sealed this mine, as it is out of their usual path.
It could be that the "mine" was used for a cache, if so...it is empty now.
It was sealed in modern-day times, after the contents were removed.

It is shown on the Stone Maps.

Take care,

Joe

[buscar]

Waltz’s cave and mine described by Julia Thomas

“In a gulch in the Superstition Mountains, the location of which is described by certain landmarks, there is a two-room house in the mouth of a cave on the side of the slope near the gulch. Just across the gulch, about 200, yards opposite this house in the cave, is a tunnel, well covered and concealed in the bushes. Here is the mine, the richest in the world, according to Dutch Jacob. Some distance above the tunnel on the side of the mountains is a shaft or incline that is not so steep but one can climb down. This too, is covered carefully. The shaft goes right down in the midst of the rich gold ledge, where it can be picked off in big flakes of almost pure gold.”

buscar

[Joe Ribaudo]

Buscar,

Just the kind of story I would tell if I wanted to create a stampede after the fabled "wild goose". Eyes get big.....brain gets smaller.

The "best" source is kind of important here, as that story grew fast. Next thing you know you're at Iron Mt. or Peter's Mesa. Hey.....weren't we just on Peter's Mesa? What happened?

It seems obvious that Waltz was not going to his mine all those times he was seen in the mountains or about to go in. We know he only went back a couple of times. He was searching for the source of the gold he found laying on the ground. He had to make up the story of a mine because someone else mined that ore, and he didn't want them to come looking for it's return. Also a good reason for Waltz not to file a claim......No Mine.

On the other hand, a couple of million really good hiding places.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[TGH]

[zentull]

One of the conclusions Gassler reaches troubles me, while I believe that Waltz may have not told the entire truth, I do not believe he tied the 2 soldiers and Deerings tales to his to make it more believable. First off Bark himself took a while to tie those things in. The 2 stories were probably kept to the vest by those who knew. We only get those tales tied in later down the line. As with the 2 soldiers, there may have been enough loose ore to cache without working the mine or tunnel proper. We have Waltz saying he only made a few trips to the site and perhaps a few in the area to make things were secure still. On the other hand you have eyewitness accounts of Waltz everywhere throughout the mountains and spending a good portion of the year prospecting. Most of these I believe are simply tall tales. As careful as he was, why would he leave his life savings unprotected for months at a time ?

I believe he understood if he filed on any claim in the area he would be signing his own death warrant. One old man traveling alone through hostile country would be easy to dispose of. Waltz kept his mouth shut and lived frugally until he needed help.