Miles of tunnels?

[ArmchairHuntress]

Good morning, folks:

I just came across this rather interesting (but farfetched, I think) website while googling "Apaches."

This caught my eye:

>“The Mandans of the northwestern states, some of whom had blue eyes and silky hair … They said the first man to emerge from the tunnels were the Histoppa or the “tattooed ones.” Having left safety too soon, they perished. The rest, who remained below, waited until a bright light dispelled the darkness on the surface…”

“The Apaches’ have a legend that their remote ancestors came from a large island in the eastern sea where there were great buildings and ports for ships. The Fire Dragon arose, and their ancestors had to flee to mountains far away to the south. Later they were forced to take refuge in immense and ancient tunnels through which they wandered for years…” (Page 39).

...Mr. Childress writes of his talk with Richard Dannelly, a local resident of Sedona, Arizona and author of the book Sedona, Power Spot Voltex. Dannelly told him, “Some friends of mine had discovered a tunnel that goes underground for quite a distance in the Superstition Mountains. (For another story of underground tunnels and a possible Big Foot connection in these same mountains read Big Foot, the Abominable Sandman, Nessie and The People who live Under Mt. Shasta on the Home Page).

Yet every time they tried to explore the cave, a strange fear and feeling of dread would overtake the whole party, and they would always turn back.” They were sent to a psychic who told them of a man who would lead them into the tunnel without fear. “With this man as their guide they were able to penetrate further into the tunnel…” Deep inside … “the remains of ancient structures and walls made out of well dressed rock were found. They then discovered at this place a spiral staircase built out of cut stones that down, down, down, down into the earth.<

Here is the link to the website:

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/superstitiontunnels.html

I have read about the theory regarding Madoc from Wales, and the Mandans who might possibly be his descendants. Interesting, about the "tattooed ones." We know the druids and several other British Isles tribes painted or tattooed themselves with woad. So, this island in the eastern sea would be England, then. But, what is the Fire Dragon? Might that be a reference to Atlantis exploding/sinking? Might this island in the eastern sea possibly be a reference to Atlantis, instead of England? Farfetched, perhaps, but interesting to ponder.

But more importantly, what this website seems to be saying is that there are thousands of miles of tunnels under Arizona, New Mexico, and Mexico. It seems to me that, as I understood it, these were the "superhighways" of yore; they enabled people to travel great distances while eluding enemies, heat, etc. This site mentions that it was known that Geronimo might be seen one day in such and such place, then all of a sudden pop up miles and miles away a few days later, and no one could figure out how that would be possible, and that it was possible because of the underground tunnels.

Is this true? Does anyone know for a fact if these tunnels exist? The website also mentioned something about finding Egyptian artifacts on some mountain in Arizona. And that seems a bit farfetched to me...

[TGH]

>>This site mentions that it was known that Geronimo might be seen one day in such and such place, then all of a sudden pop up miles and miles away a few days later, and no one could figure out how that would be possible, and that it was possible because of the underground tunnels.<<

Apache on a raid could make 50-75 miles a day depending on whether or not they were mounted (horses tended to slow them down over longer distances)

The rest of your post reminds me of a program I recently watched purporting that the NASA Moon Landings were a hoax. On the one hand
you have various astronauts and scientists vouching for the authenticity of the moon landings(along with the fact that 400,000 NASA employees would have to keep this secret for the past 37 years) and on the other hand the "hoax" purporters were two idiots living in trailers (crummy trailers to boot) who kept saying "golly gee. we just couldnt go to the moon"....Made me wonder why someone would waste their time on a lame-brain program like that when they could be out attempting to collect wood-ape scat instead.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Geronimo was credited for every raid, theft or Indian killing that took place in his hey-day. It is common knowledge that he was not everywhere he was reported to be.

Beyond that, the Apache travelled from piller to post in the Southwest without detection, for the most part. If they did not want anyone to know they were passing thru, they didn't.

As Peter said, they were known to travel impossible distances in short periods and without sustenance.

Fiction is fun to read, but I would not want to use it for a "source".

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[murphy]

Armchairhuntress,
A good description of Geronimo's travels and pursute can be found in "The Truth About Geronimo" By Britton Davis, a young cavalry officer involved in the campaign to capture Geronimo. If he had access to secret tunnels he certainly didn't use them. You will find a miriad of "sci-fi" stories about the Superstitions on lots of web sites. They range from mildly amusing to downright ridicules.

[zentull]

I have a serious issue with so much of this so called non fiction. There is a difference between someone who believes in what they do and presents it accordingly and a charlatan. I have an issue with people who make a living off others ignorance and/or expectations.

Matrixing ? Natural tendency for the human mind to interpret sensory input (that which is perceived visually, audibly or tactilely) as something familiar or more easily understood and accepted, and in effect mentally "filling in the blanks."

In other words you have a predetermined concept or meaning of the events prior to their actual occurence.

There is a common occurence among those who have lost a loved one or spouse. They awake at night to find the deceased either standing beside their bed or seated upon it. Generally the ghost assumes one of these positions at the foot of the bed. The deceased usually smiles. There are no words passed between them. The individual can tell you they know they were awake. They have general knowledge of this happening to others prior to the event. Chances are you have had this experience or have heard someone else tell it.............No? Then you have been primed for matrixing by reading the above. My apologies.

I believe this sort of urban legend is innocent and well intentioned by our subconcious during times of stress and emotional discomfort.

However to make profit on others search for truth and meaning with lies is pathetic. They may profess profound belief in such things, but they believe in the checks they cash even more so.

One night I sat out back with my wife and watched helicopter manuevers down by the Goodyear testing facility for over an hour. The next night people took pictures of the same thing over metropolitan Phoenix. Someone is still making a profit on the lights over Phoenix.

An excellent book is " An Encyclopedia of claims, frauds and hoaxes of the occult and supernatural " by James Randi. It is entertaining, Illuminating and informative.

I think I once mentioned before in a post that Edgar Cayce used to snore during his trances.

[ArmchairHuntress]

Thanks all for your thoughts and opinions regarding the underground tunnels. As I said, I thought the site a bit farfetched, but I had to ask about the underground tunnels!

[bill711]

There are hundreds of miles of caves under new mexico ! bill

[djui5]

There are hundreds of miles of caves under new mexico ! bill

I was looking at David Rumsey's old maps last night, and one of the AZ maps has an interesting marking slightly north west of Tuscon. It says "supposed underground passage of Santa Cruz R"(something?, maybe rio?). It's pretty long...

Considering the volcanic origins of the supers, I wouldn't find it too crazy to learn of lots of underground rivers that have dried up (either from time or from volcanic/earthquake activity).

I'm sure the story was embelished some, but I wouldn't entirely discount it.

[murphy]

Tom Kollenborn mentioned a limestone cavern that he found once in the Supes and didn't want the beauty of it destroyed so he disquised the entrance. It would not suprise me to find there are larger caverns that have not been discovered.

[ArmchairHuntress]

Nature can be fairly interesting, can't it? <g>

Here in Oregon, we have Silver Falls State Park, which is actually 10 waterfalls (if memory serves) within a 7 or 8 mile hiking loop. This is an old volcanic area. Here you will find the "prayer holes to Heaven." These prayer holes are situated in the ceilings of the cliffs, behind the waterfalls. What happened is that trees were caught in the lava flow. The lava hardened around the trees. Then slowly, the trees rotted away, leaving holes in the ceiling. The local native americans believed these were holy places, because the holes or "prayer tubes" seemed to be a direct connection to the heavens, thus allowing for personal visions, or communications with the Maker.

I've hiked that one and it's great, but very overcrowded with people. My next local adventure is finding the "Valley of the Giants!"

[zentull]

There is a far stretch between a network of underground caves and a tunnel with a staircase that leads into the bowels of the earth. Never mind the giant throne, artifacts and ancient structures that no one bothered to take a picture of and the fact that this remains a mysterious unknown location. Remember this is also a story told to someone about some friends who told him the story. It was published in a book that fed someones bank account.

After well the over 30 years I have encountered no strange lights, giants, pygmys, lost Indian tribes, secret military bases, staircases that lead into the bowels of the earth, Jimmy Hoffa, vortexs, strange species of unknown animals, ghosts, flying saucers, the fountain of youth, extraterrestials or ice cream stands in the Superstitions.

Sorry Joe, no Black Legion either.

I can say I have heard the booms. Very different than the dynamite. Kind of a muffled sonic boom.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Zen,

Yea....right......"booms", like that's real.

Respectfully,

Joe

[zentull]

Hey Joe, I was just sitting in the LDM going over the stone maps with a Sasquatch and I heard them clear as the day was night.

[djui5]

There is a far stretch between a network of underground caves and a tunnel with a staircase that leads into the bowels of the earth. Never mind the giant throne, artifacts and ancient structures that no one bothered to take a picture of and the fact that this remains a mysterious unknown location.

Yeah, I think that was the embelished part

[murphy]

Just dont let that Big Foot step on any of the Pigmy Antelelope.

[bill711]

The best that I can remember the caves in New Mexico was supposed to run into Arizona, A big whooper of a cave. This was without the staircase! In 1969/70 we had sonic boom everyday in our science class at nsu The boom was so loud it shook the whole building. It just poped off the windows. It could not be determined where it came from? The military had nothing on it. The dynamiters on the ark. river wasn,t doing it and no one knew what it was from? I don,t remember the investigaters ever finding anything, we used to joker about the aliens doing it. no one knew what it was. bill

[armchair]

A couple of old articles discuss big caverns in the Superstitions. Maybe one of these is what Kollenborn found:

January 8, 1880 (The Ohio Democrat) – Mexican arrived from Reno Mountains. About one month ago a companion and he went prospecting about a month ago, going up Salt River. They left river when opposite Superstition Mountain and began prospecting. While climbing up mountain in a little gully with black sand and in the sand were large quantities of fine gold. In some places the sand was only half an inch deep over the granite. The gold, in pieces the size of a bean and smaller, was found in little fissures in the face of the bedrock. They obtained $600 worth in half a days work. They saw an Indian woman who ran away, and ten minutes later they were captured by 50 or 60 savages. The Indians were very small. The Indians took them up the mountain and put them into a cave. The Indians seemed to be cave dwellers. The Indians killed his partner but the Mexican escaped. The Superstition Mountain derives its name from the fact that no white man has ever been seen again who attempted its ascension. It is a tradition among the Mexicans that large deposits of free gold are to be found in its gully’s and ravines. (Overview of article)

May 6, 1894 (Arizona Republican) – “The friends of Mr. Beauchamp Rogers will be pleased to learn of his return to Phoenix. Mr. Rogers spent the summer here two years ago and attained high rank in the order of the Amalgamated Association of Prevaricators which assembled daily in the courthouse corridor. Other efficient members were Andrew Barry, Tom Greenbaw, and Tom Malloy. When Mr. Rogers left here he went to San Francisco and entertained newspaper reporters with a weird description of a cave he had discovered in the Superstition mountains. He had never fully explored the cavity, but he had seen enough of it to satisfy himself that the Kentucky Mammoth cave was an insignificant hole in the ground in comparison."

Shelby

[Somehiker]

I too have heard these "booms" several times while hiking the superstitions area. Most often they have sounded like a heavy truck driven over a long metal bridge.Other times they may sound like a low pitched crack of thunder, followed by a long echoing rumble.My own curosity has been satisfied however.On my most recent trip into the area, I had stopped to get an extra bottle of water at Tortilla Flats when I heard several of these booms. Several other people were there and a lively discussion began about the sounds. Speculation on the causes ranged from earthquakes/rockfalls to secret military experiments and some stated that they had hear these booms frequently. After listening to their opinions for a few minutes,I headed east to Mesquite Flat where I wanted to take some pics.Although it was quiet when I got out of the car,the booms began once more a few minutes later.This time the sound seemed more distant, and more like it was rising and falling in volume like a large vehicle over a bridge. I wondered if this could be coming from the bridges at Canyon or Sauguaro Lakes. Then I drove on to FR80 and
headed north.As I approached the gate I found a group of target shooters in the low area just east of the gate.Apparently this is a popular area for local shooters,being well isolated and little travelled.The abundance of used brass on the ground might make a good scrap opportunity for someone.Among the weapons in use when I arrived were two .50 cal sniper rifles which I can assure you are crazy LOUD. These guys though,were retrieving all their spent cartridges as they reload their own.
Even here the gunshots echoed for what seemed like minutes before fading, especially the .50's.
SH

[JIM HAMRICK]

If you wish to see some strange things (over) in the Superstitions look at the albums that were available a week ago(I can't find the way to pull up past albums) and see if you can spot the anomalous "things" in the pictures. "Watch the skys".

This comment has nothing to do with the subject but I added it anyway. In one of the albums there was a picture of the "circle in a circle". This looks like a circle with a bore hole in the middle, if it is a bore hole has anyone placed a dowell in it and see if it points to anything or place?

Jim Hamrick