over the summer i spent a lot of time on the road in different parts of the country. in restaurants and bars i started many conversations about the upcoming election. most of the conversations happened to be with people that i disagreed with.
from all those interesting and passionate conversations there is only one conclusion i could draw - the united states is a deeply divided nation. the division is so deep that the left will not be able to live under a government run by the right and the right will not be able to live under a government run by the left.
the right wants a nation based on evangelical christian moral beliefs that are enforced by government, minimal control over business and no assistance to the individual. business should be free to make profits without being forced to take into account what effects its operations will have on the environment or society, and individuals should succeed or fail solely on their own initiative without expecting any assistance from the government if they cannot survive.
the left wants a nation that has a separation between church and state without government enforced religious morals, regulations to force business to take into account the social/environmental effects of its operations, and expect the government to redistribute some of the gdp through programs such as social security, universal medicare for all ages, and universal free education for children.
do you agree or disagree that the left and right are so far apart that life under one is not possible for the other?
what will you do if your party looses the election?
the chances are very high that if it happens to me i will end up voting with my feet.
a nation divided
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pippinwhitepaws
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i rather like mark twain's concept..." the only time i feel comfortable about congress, is when they are not in session..."
my belief in a civil society is that there is a conservative core to a society...these are the teachers, merchants, ect....these people have a vested interest maintaining a calm, orderly atmosphere...'hold the fort', so to speak...
then you go out from there...conservatives do not experiment...do not willingly try new concepts or methods...that's not a bad thing...stick with what works...
unfortunately for the center, things don't work like that...
there are always those who go beyond the frontier...
people push the fringes in all directions...
to define people as right or left...and there is no other position, ignores most of the civilized population...
my belief in a civil society is that there is a conservative core to a society...these are the teachers, merchants, ect....these people have a vested interest maintaining a calm, orderly atmosphere...'hold the fort', so to speak...
then you go out from there...conservatives do not experiment...do not willingly try new concepts or methods...that's not a bad thing...stick with what works...
unfortunately for the center, things don't work like that...
there are always those who go beyond the frontier...
people push the fringes in all directions...
to define people as right or left...and there is no other position, ignores most of the civilized population...
pip,
both the democratic and republican parties are right of center. i have no idea what percentage of the us population is in the center or the left but if the 2 major political parties are representative of the people the majority are significantly to the right of center.
i came across a test chart that measures a persons position in the left/right, authoritarian/libertarian graph. the site is http://www.politicalcompass.org/ my position is -8.88 economic left/right and -8.05 social authoritarian/liberterian. it appears to be a fair representation of my position. it would be interesting to see where the others in this forum place on the chart. i hope joe and most of the others here take the test and shows us the result.
both the democratic and republican parties are right of center. i have no idea what percentage of the us population is in the center or the left but if the 2 major political parties are representative of the people the majority are significantly to the right of center.
i came across a test chart that measures a persons position in the left/right, authoritarian/libertarian graph. the site is http://www.politicalcompass.org/ my position is -8.88 economic left/right and -8.05 social authoritarian/liberterian. it appears to be a fair representation of my position. it would be interesting to see where the others in this forum place on the chart. i hope joe and most of the others here take the test and shows us the result.
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critter
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My results
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.62
An interesting exercise. Thanks for that.
Cheers
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.62
An interesting exercise. Thanks for that.
Cheers
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pippinwhitepaws
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pippinwhitepaws
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Joe Ribaudo
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Guilt By Association.....
With 28,007 members, there may very well be a few people who aren't up to your standards, but by any standard, that site is successful. There are some really good posters who know their history.
You should see what you can add to some of the better conversations.
Joe Ribaudo
TreasureNet Forum - Statistics Center
General Statistics
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You should see what you can add to some of the better conversations.
Joe Ribaudo
TreasureNet Forum - Statistics Center
General Statistics
Total Members: 28007
Total Posts: 1196001
Total Topics: 111572
Total Categories: 22
Users Online: 273
Most Online: 981 - Aug 18, 2008, 02:37:54 PM
Online Today: 713
Total page views: 118989002
Average registrations per day: 23.79
Average posts per day: 845.91
Average topics per day: 85.88
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Latest Member: Emery109
Average online per day: 379.4
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Dow......
One year ago today, the Dow hit it's historical high point. Now who was responsable for that record high?
Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
Joe,
What goes up, must come down, or so I was taught. Personally, I don't blame the Republicans for the meltdown on Wall Street... there were plenty of Democrats who were equally to blame.
I do believe that some legislation contributed to the problems, but most of the problems developed as a result of greed. I, like most Americans, do not view the Bailout as a solution. Let the chips fall where they may.
I do believe that we have overspent, and for the wrong things. I would rather a bridge to no-where, than endless warfare. I do indeed blame the budget crisis on the Bush administration. That one is a no-brainer.
Do I think McCain is capable of positive change? No, of course not! Do I believe Obama can bring about positive change? Yes, but it isn't going to be easy, and it won't happen overnight.
,
Have a nice day
Brad
What goes up, must come down, or so I was taught. Personally, I don't blame the Republicans for the meltdown on Wall Street... there were plenty of Democrats who were equally to blame.
I do believe that some legislation contributed to the problems, but most of the problems developed as a result of greed. I, like most Americans, do not view the Bailout as a solution. Let the chips fall where they may.
I do believe that we have overspent, and for the wrong things. I would rather a bridge to no-where, than endless warfare. I do indeed blame the budget crisis on the Bush administration. That one is a no-brainer.
Do I think McCain is capable of positive change? No, of course not! Do I believe Obama can bring about positive change? Yes, but it isn't going to be easy, and it won't happen overnight.
,
Have a nice day
Brad
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pippinwhitepaws
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i love how both parties are claiming to be the bringers of "change".
change is the only constant in this big ol' universe, and each of the party's believe they are the carriers, change will not occur unless you vote for us.
Eisenhower warned us.
the american people ignored the warning.
so it is our fault things are like they are.
change is the only constant in this big ol' universe, and each of the party's believe they are the carriers, change will not occur unless you vote for us.
Eisenhower warned us.
the american people ignored the warning.
so it is our fault things are like they are.
the republicans are at it again with their racist hate of anyone who is not a white conservative christian. the chaffey community republican women sent out a mock dollar bill. the image below speaks for itself as mccains silence about it also speaks loudly. racists are ignorant, cowards. those who fail to speak out against them for political advantage are no different than those who embraced nazism for political gain.
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pippinwhitepaws
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In some ways having Obama elected might be a good thing for americans.Sometimes a country needs a dose of socialism to realise just how awful it is,and to appreciate what you had....if you survive of course. 
I dont really know why the electorate (not just in america) continually falls for this "change" nonsense....the "new begginning" mantra,the "getting rid of the sleaze" platform......havent we heard it all before?
kind regards
I dont really know why the electorate (not just in america) continually falls for this "change" nonsense....the "new begginning" mantra,the "getting rid of the sleaze" platform......havent we heard it all before?
kind regards
Don update your email address
democratic socialism would be a breath of fresh air in this neocon fascist marriage between govt and business. unfortunately obama is not a socialist, he is right of center. he as most of american politicians are conservatives. a notable exception is the social democrat senator from vermont, bernie sanders. sanders is an independent not a democrat.
don,
which of obama's policies do you find socialist?
his health care proposal is not universal national health care. he proposes offering americans the ability to BUY into the same health plan that congress receives. the current private medical care system will be kept.
tax wise he proposes to let the bush tax cuts expire and decrease the taxes for those earning less than $250,000
at this time the top 1% of americans have more money than the bottom 50%. the american infrastructure is crumbling, bridges are literally falling down, we are in 2 foreign wars and have troops in many other countries. we are bailing out corporation to the tune of over 1 trillion. who should pay for this? either we raise taxes or pass the bill to our future generations.
which of obama's policies do you find socialist?
his health care proposal is not universal national health care. he proposes offering americans the ability to BUY into the same health plan that congress receives. the current private medical care system will be kept.
tax wise he proposes to let the bush tax cuts expire and decrease the taxes for those earning less than $250,000
at this time the top 1% of americans have more money than the bottom 50%. the american infrastructure is crumbling, bridges are literally falling down, we are in 2 foreign wars and have troops in many other countries. we are bailing out corporation to the tune of over 1 trillion. who should pay for this? either we raise taxes or pass the bill to our future generations.
lbj,
I think if anyone thinks there will be tax cuts (for anyone) that is a bit naive.......and I doubt whether the "bills" will ever be paid,either by this generation or the following ones.The hope that somehow we will tax the poor less and "squeeze" the rich till the pips squeak is the "jewel in the crown" of socialist thinking.Ok in theory,but in practice it decreases the tax revenue because "the rich" take their money elsewhere where they get a greater return....businesses leave and set up in other countries,jobs dissappear,and sooner or later there are no rich people to tax any more,few businesses to tax.The onloy person left to tax is the ordinary guy....and if he hasnt got a job ,what then?.......in my opinion,and its only my opinion,America and europe need leaders of the calibre of reagan or thatcher right now to get us through this crisis....I believe Obama will be a nightmare,nothing to do with his colour,more to do with his slick ,but no substance "leadership".McCain doesnt exactly inspire either, but at least its pretty certain whos side he is on.....socialism is gonna come in through the back door in the guise of compassionate policies that in the present situation I find difficult to believe can succeed.
regards
I think if anyone thinks there will be tax cuts (for anyone) that is a bit naive.......and I doubt whether the "bills" will ever be paid,either by this generation or the following ones.The hope that somehow we will tax the poor less and "squeeze" the rich till the pips squeak is the "jewel in the crown" of socialist thinking.Ok in theory,but in practice it decreases the tax revenue because "the rich" take their money elsewhere where they get a greater return....businesses leave and set up in other countries,jobs dissappear,and sooner or later there are no rich people to tax any more,few businesses to tax.The onloy person left to tax is the ordinary guy....and if he hasnt got a job ,what then?.......in my opinion,and its only my opinion,America and europe need leaders of the calibre of reagan or thatcher right now to get us through this crisis....I believe Obama will be a nightmare,nothing to do with his colour,more to do with his slick ,but no substance "leadership".McCain doesnt exactly inspire either, but at least its pretty certain whos side he is on.....socialism is gonna come in through the back door in the guise of compassionate policies that in the present situation I find difficult to believe can succeed.
regards
Don update your email address
don,
you may be right about no one lowering the taxes but the republicans have a strong history of lowering taxes for the rich even if it raises our deficit. regan bush 1 and bush 2 done it.
as far as redistribution goes all governments do it in one or the other direction. for the last 7 years republican policies redistributed money from the middle class to the upper class. why is it so wrong to talk about redistributing a little bit from the rich to the middle class.
i dont know about thatcher but regan lowered taxes on the rich and increased the deficit as did bush 1 and bush 2.
if we are to follow the theory that decreasing taxes on the rich increases employment the logical conclusion is to make sure the rich pay no taxes whatsoever so we can have maximum employment.
as far as the threat of companies leaving and going to places with lower taxes is also false. the manufacturing jobs went to countries with slave level wages. they did not leave for lower taxes.
which aspect of democratic socialism do you fear - national health care, social security, unemployment insurance, right to join a union??
the world is in an economic and political mess. the us is still the major player and if the situation is going to be fixed we need a brilliant and level headed leader. obama is both while mccain is neither. over the last year mccain has been erratic and to a large extent removed from reality. just a few weeks ago he proudly claimed the fundamentals of our economy were strong. can we really trust his judgment?
you may be right about no one lowering the taxes but the republicans have a strong history of lowering taxes for the rich even if it raises our deficit. regan bush 1 and bush 2 done it.
as far as redistribution goes all governments do it in one or the other direction. for the last 7 years republican policies redistributed money from the middle class to the upper class. why is it so wrong to talk about redistributing a little bit from the rich to the middle class.
i dont know about thatcher but regan lowered taxes on the rich and increased the deficit as did bush 1 and bush 2.
if we are to follow the theory that decreasing taxes on the rich increases employment the logical conclusion is to make sure the rich pay no taxes whatsoever so we can have maximum employment.
as far as the threat of companies leaving and going to places with lower taxes is also false. the manufacturing jobs went to countries with slave level wages. they did not leave for lower taxes.
which aspect of democratic socialism do you fear - national health care, social security, unemployment insurance, right to join a union??
the world is in an economic and political mess. the us is still the major player and if the situation is going to be fixed we need a brilliant and level headed leader. obama is both while mccain is neither. over the last year mccain has been erratic and to a large extent removed from reality. just a few weeks ago he proudly claimed the fundamentals of our economy were strong. can we really trust his judgment?
lbj,
The facets of socialism I "fear" is the higher taxation,both direct and indirect-the red tape,which strangles business,the ever increasing number of govt officials which socialism requires to function-the attempts to control what we do,how we act ...even what we think.The idea of pulling everyone "up" to the same level,which in fact drags us all down to the same level of mediocrity.The creation of an underclass which thinks it has a divine right to do nothing,yet have others pay for their idleness .A society which has more interest in the rights of foreifgners than the rights of its own citizens....a society which thinks it knows better as regards how YOU should spend YOUR own money.....a society which trumpets freedom,yet ultimately destroys it....That will do for now
regards
The facets of socialism I "fear" is the higher taxation,both direct and indirect-the red tape,which strangles business,the ever increasing number of govt officials which socialism requires to function-the attempts to control what we do,how we act ...even what we think.The idea of pulling everyone "up" to the same level,which in fact drags us all down to the same level of mediocrity.The creation of an underclass which thinks it has a divine right to do nothing,yet have others pay for their idleness .A society which has more interest in the rights of foreifgners than the rights of its own citizens....a society which thinks it knows better as regards how YOU should spend YOUR own money.....a society which trumpets freedom,yet ultimately destroys it....That will do for now
regards
Don update your email address
don,
hmmmm, let see what the situation has been here for the last 7 and a half years. we had large tax breaks for the very wealthy and next to none for the middle class. further this tax cut for the rich resulted in less federal funds for state and local govts resulting in larger fees and taxes for the middle class at the local level. this is a redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the rich. its time to reverse this trend.
the conservative right, not the liberal left, is for controlling our individual freedoms. they are passing laws to force the rest of us submit to their "moral values" and "patriotic" standards. if you question or disagree with their politics you are branded unamerican and a hater of america. i havent seen the left doing that. reminds me a lot of the tactics of stalin and hitler. give me that socialist gandhi over those two any day.
this illegal aliens are in the us because corporations want cheap labor. jail the executives of companies that hire illegals and you will see illegal immigration disappear quickly.
hmmmm, let see what the situation has been here for the last 7 and a half years. we had large tax breaks for the very wealthy and next to none for the middle class. further this tax cut for the rich resulted in less federal funds for state and local govts resulting in larger fees and taxes for the middle class at the local level. this is a redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the rich. its time to reverse this trend.
the conservative right, not the liberal left, is for controlling our individual freedoms. they are passing laws to force the rest of us submit to their "moral values" and "patriotic" standards. if you question or disagree with their politics you are branded unamerican and a hater of america. i havent seen the left doing that. reminds me a lot of the tactics of stalin and hitler. give me that socialist gandhi over those two any day.
this illegal aliens are in the us because corporations want cheap labor. jail the executives of companies that hire illegals and you will see illegal immigration disappear quickly.
lbj
YEAH sure the right say to anyone who disagrees with their policies..."you hate america"..which is pretty silly i agree....but the left i believe are even more rabid,at least here in britain.....if you ask questions about immigration,if you mention that maybe the numbers allowed to immigrate into britain should be reduced...then you are a racist....if you object to the new laws whereby homosexuals should be allowed to have sex in public toilets then you are homophobic....if you dislike almost anything ..you are a bigot....if you think women are different to men in certain issues ..you are sexist.......it gets worse...and it has here..i think i said it before ,every country needs a shot of socialism maybe, before they can realise how bloody awful it is..ok in theory,but in practice-forget it.
regards
YEAH sure the right say to anyone who disagrees with their policies..."you hate america"..which is pretty silly i agree....but the left i believe are even more rabid,at least here in britain.....if you ask questions about immigration,if you mention that maybe the numbers allowed to immigrate into britain should be reduced...then you are a racist....if you object to the new laws whereby homosexuals should be allowed to have sex in public toilets then you are homophobic....if you dislike almost anything ..you are a bigot....if you think women are different to men in certain issues ..you are sexist.......it gets worse...and it has here..i think i said it before ,every country needs a shot of socialism maybe, before they can realise how bloody awful it is..ok in theory,but in practice-forget it.
regards
Don update your email address