Deerings Trail

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
TGH
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Deerings Trail

Post by TGH »

Thought I would move the discussion of Deerings Trail to its own topic, as it doesn't relate to the Stone Maps.

Joe,

If I was on Black Mtn and wanted to get back to Labarge Spring I do not think I would travel a mile north (the complete opposite direction from my campsite) to Squaw Canyon and take that route down to eventually find my camp. In fact, how would Deering even know there was a route down Squaw if he hadnt been in that country before? From Black Mtn that entire rim looks like one big drop-off. It would be much easier and more direct to head down Charlyboy Canyon to get back to my campsite at Labarge Spring.

And keep in mind: when Chunning asked Deering how far "it" (his camp or the mine?) was from the Salt River, Deering replied "oh about a mile, maybe two". That seems to indicate either "it" was much further north than Labarge Spring or that Deering was in a habit of overestimating distances.


P
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Good Points

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Those are good points, but the Chunning/Deering wording may be read more than one way. I am at the store right now, but I believe I can answer your questions.

The problem with going down "Charlyboy Canyon" is that it does not fit the description of going down into a "rincon". If you are going from Black Mountain, into a rincon at the bottom, you will need to be ending up in Squaw Canyon.

He only made the trip once, so I would assume he may not have picked the most reasonable or logical trail. Not sure he had the time to scope out all the possibilites. Marsh Valley also seems to be in the equation, somewhere. Once you find the the trail off the top of Black Mountain, into Squaw Canyon, the trip back to LaBarge Spring is much quicker and easier, as well as less distance.

What remains is your assertion that he said the mine was a "mile, maybe two" from the Salt River presents some problems on it's own. I don't believe he actually said "from the Salt River". It may be that he meant from his camp. If he takes the trail from LaBarge Spring through Trap Canyon ("Havalilna"?), as I described it, he travels just a bit over seven miles to Black Mountain. When he talks about " a mile, maybe two", he would be a lot closer to the correct distance using the Squaw Canyon route. Line of sight from the top of Black Mountain to his camp at LaBarge would be even closer to the mark.

Peter, this is just speculation using the Bark Notes. No facts, just the story being used. I don't believe there is a single verifiable piece of evidence for any of it, however, I believe you would be hard pressed to find terrain that is a better match for the story. But then, I guess you have. :)

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

The problem with going down "Charlyboy Canyon" is that it does not fit the description of going down into a "rincon". If you are going from Black Mountain, into a rincon at the bottom, you will need to be ending up in Squaw Canyon.

DONT AGREE HERE.

He only made the trip once, so I would assume he may not have picked the most reasonable or logical trail. Not sure he had the time to scope out all the possibilites. Marsh Valley also seems to be in the equation, somewhere. Once you find the the trail off the top of Black Mountain, into Squaw Canyon, the trip back to LaBarge Spring is much quicker and easier, as well as less distance.

ACCORDING TO CHUNNING HE MADE THE TRIP TWICE. YOU STILL HAVE NOT SATISFACTORILY EXPLAINED WHY HE WOULD TRAVEL UP TO SQUAW CANYON THE DIRECT OPPOSITE DIRECTION FROM HIS CAMP...A CAMP THAT HE COULD EASILY SEE FROM THE TOP OF CERTIAN LOCATIONS ON BLACK MTN. SEEMS TO ME I WOULD JUST HEAD TOWARDS MY CAMP, RATHER THAN AWAY FROM IT AND HOPE THERE WAS A WAY OFF THAT PLATEAU.

What remains is your assertion that he said the mine was a "mile, maybe two" from the Salt River presents some problems on it's own. I don't believe he actually said "from the Salt River". It may be that he meant from his camp. If he takes the trail from LaBarge Spring through Trap Canyon ("Havalilna"?), as I described it, he travels just a bit over seven miles to Black Mountain. When he talks about " a mile, maybe two", he would be a lot closer to the correct distance using the Squaw Canyon route. Line of sight from the top of Black Mountain to his camp at LaBarge would be even closer to the mark.

HE PROBABLY WAS WRONG ABOUT THE DISTANCE ON BOTH COUNTS: FROM THE SALT AND THE DISTANCE FROM HIS CAMP TO HIS MINE. ONE WAS A LITTLE LONGER THE OTHER A LITTLE SHORTER.

Peter, this is just speculation using the Bark Notes. No facts, just the story being used. I don't believe there is a single verifiable piece of evidence for any of it, however, I believe you would be hard pressed to find terrain that is a better match for the story.

ACTUALLY THERE ARE SEVERAL "VERIFIABLE" PIECES OF EVIDENCE REMAINING.

But then, I guess you have.

GOOD POINT.
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Misread

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

I believe you have misread what I wrote.

I did not say that Joe Deering only made one trip to the mine. If you reread the paragraph where I mention that he only made one trip, and the one directly before it, you will see that what I am talking about is his coming "down off the big mountain into a rincon". He only made that trip one time. Once he got down into the (big canyon) the trip back to his camp was shorter and easier.

On his first trip to the mine, "He returned to his camp, over the same trail which he took going in."

Looking down from the top of Black Mountain to the area of LaBarge Spring (Deering's camp?) is about 1 3/4 miles. Joe Deering never says he was camped anywhere near the Salt River

Here is the statement we were talking about: "Deering said then that he went up the canyon to his camp, and the next day over to the King. John asked him how far it was from the Salt River. The reply was, "'Oh, a mile, mile and a half, two miles.'"

Now we both know, there is only one place where that could be the case, without Joe Deering's mine being on the north side of the Apache Trail.
That would be a two mile arc with the west end being Apache Gap and the east side being around halfway between the Laguna Recreation Site and Tortilla Flat.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is personal opinion:

For me.....that smells of misdirection. Not the first, nor the last time someone will throw a false trail into this legend. We really only have three perp's to consider here, Joe Deering, John Chunning and Jim Bark.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that Charlebois Canyon is the better choice to make in going back to a camp at LaBarge Spring and an arguement could be made, that if you took the trail, it does end up in a rincon. The results are the same.

Thanks for the answer. It certainly is an interesting theory, all the way around. Deering said he followed the trail for "six or seven miles". One wonders how far it went in the opposite direction and where that ended.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Siddartha

Post by zentull »

This is supposing that Deering was camped where you want him and followed the burro the direction you want. Deering never gives much of a locale. Its Chunning and Bark that seem to direct things in one direction or another. Chunning waited 4 or 5 years according to Bark to even begin to look for the mine and thats after he was technically layed off and seemed in need of funds. Sounds like he knew very little and took a chance. Bark may have influenced much of the story by trying to assist Chunning. Brownie Holmes said he also knew Chunning and relates the story and puts him in there 2 to 3 years later still ( including yet another death bed revelation ). Its no wonder Chunning ended up everywhere. After some direction from Bark was useless, he probably just started out in different directions trying to match things up. I believe once the Deering mine got tied into Waltzs it hooked him even deeper. Bark and Holmes both say they found the markers and the willow. It didn't help either of them. Like all of us, once fixated on an area its difficult to change our internal view and more so swallow our pride and change our opinion. Some of the most well known public clues are not even correct. The Republic, while doing the HEAT story, talked about Waltzs deathbed revelation to Julia. Wasn't Ely part of the early Republic ? Don't know if Trap Canyon could be Javelina , but did get a pig thereabouts once, I would have asked questions first but I doubt he would have listened.
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Looking For The Truth

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

I suppose it's true that in some ways we are like Siddartha, except most of us take an occasional bath. :lol:

The thing that really tends to bring Joe Deering into LaBarge Spring and Trap Canyon, is this description: "Their next trail was the one Deering found and followed, went up havalina Canyon over into the horse country, down Peters Mesa to the Charlebois trail and thence to Marsh Valley (Their camp) a roundabout way but always high up and fairly free from favorable spots for Indian ambuscades." (emphasis in bold by Joe)

If you are going "down Peters Mesa", what direction are you traveling? Once you have that figured out, add in the rest of the clues. Once you decide to start at LaBarge Spring and follow the directions given, especially "down Peters Mesa", you will find that it is a trip of around
7 and 1/4 miles to the top of Black Mountain. Sound familiar?

Ely was an important part of the Arizona Republic. For the rest of the story, you could read "All The Time A Newspaper" by, Earl Zarbin.

While we may not have the truth here, I believe it's possible we have the truth that someone wanted us to have. For my money, I believe that someone was Jim Bark. 8O

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

Now, assuming the Labarge Spring/Trap Canyon route is the correct one....where is that "well-worn" trail....... "worn deeper than any other he had seen in those mountians" ? Not certain that that fits the bill in that area. Deering also said the burro was 1 1/2 miles from camp up the side of a mountain........
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Dearing's Trail

Post by Roger »

Here are some quotes and comments from the Bark Notes related to Dearing's story:

1. "Well, I was camped at at a spring in a big canyon, and was headed for the King. I had my breakfast, took my canteen full of water and went to look for my burro. I saw him abut half a mile up the side of the mountain. As I started toward him, I saw a deep worn trail and it was so much larger and worn so much deeper in the rocks than any trail I had seen in those mountains, that it excited my curiosity. I left the burro, and started to follow it, and I believe I followed it six or seven miles, and came to the worse place I ever saw. There was a tunnel, and it been walled up." (Page 100, Thomas Probert Version)
COMMENTS: What canyon and at what spring was Dearing camped at? La Barge most closely fits the description of a "large canyon" that would be traversed to get to the King and there are well know trails through it in that direction. The burro was 1/2 mile up a mountain side - which mountain?

2. "He returned to his camp over the same trail which he took going in. On his way back, there was a willow tree growing just at the lower edge of the trail. He rested under it, and took the little hand ax he was carrying, and cut a cross on the tree". (Page 101)
COMMENTS: It was established in an earlier Forum thread that the willow with the cross was in La Barge Canyon where the Old Squaw Canyon merged with La Barge Canyon (not the Squaw Canyon on today's maps). This location raises several questions. If Dearing came down Charlebois Canyon and was heading back to his camp at La Barge Spring, why would he be that far North of Charlebois Canyon marking the willow tree??? It is more likely that he either came down Old Squaw Canyon or the next canyon North of it. This would have placed him up on the South side of Malapais Mtn. If he was camped at Labarge Spring, how would he have found a trail on a mountain side that would have ended up with him going up Old Squaw Canyon?

3. "The trail was mounmented with two little rocks, until it left Havalina Canyon and dropped over into the horse counrty" (Page 101)
COMMENTS: Which canyon did Bark call Havalina Canyon? Big question.

4. "......in going back to his camp from the mine (2nd trip to the mine), he said that he came down off the big mountain into a canyon and there he built four moumnents. He said they were not much monuments, just long slim stone stood on end, with four or five small stones laid around the base with no particular attention paid to distance or direction" (Page 102)
COMMENTS: Again, at the bottom of which canyon did Dearing erect these mounments?

5. "Dearing said that he went up the canyon to his camp and the next day came over to the King". (Page 102)
COMMENTS: This would confirm that Dearings camp was up canyon from the direction of where the mine area was. I don't think Large Spring could match his description of where his burro was at, finding the train, and going up Old Squaw Box following the trail.

6. "John asked him how far it was from the Salt River. The reply was, "Oh, a mile, mile and a half, two miles." (Page 102)
COMMENTS: There does not appear to be any location around Malaipas Mtn that is 2 miles or less to the Salt River from there. Even the North end of Geronimo Head is 3 miles or more from the Salt. Suspect Dearing was mistaken in this distance estimate.

CONCLUSIONS: Here's my thought on all of the Dearing clues combined: Dearing was camped at Bluff Spring at the SE end of Bluff Spring Mtn. His burro up the side of Bluff Spring Mtn and when Dearing went up towards him, he stumbled across the trail that goes atop of Bluff Spring Mtn that one of Gus Barkley's cowboys found. This trail at this point matches closely with Dearing's description of being very deep and worn and can only be seen if one gets up the mountain a distance. Dearing then followed this trail to the top of Bluff Spring Mtn to its North end, down into Marsh Valley and then up Old Squaw Box (or the canyon just to its North) and then up on Malaipas Mtn. This distance is about 5 miles. Now, where did Dearing go from here??? Did he go North onto Geronimo Head, down into Peters Canyon and then onward from there? The one clear conclusion from this is that the LDM location based on Dearings clues would place it in this quadrant of the Supers.

Food for thought.

Roger
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Trails

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

You asked:

"Now, assuming the Labarge Spring/Trap Canyon route is the correct one....where is that "well-worn" trail....... "worn deeper than any other he had seen in those mountians" ? Not certain that that fits the bill in that area. Deering also said the burro was 1 1/2 miles from camp up the side of a mountain........"

Not sure how much time Deering spent in the Superstitions, as he had only been out of Colorado for eleven months. Did he come right to the Supes' or did he spend some time in Prescott? If so, just how familiar was he with the trails in the mountains?

Keeping within the boundries of my theory, I would look for the trail on the south side of Music Mountain between Trap Canyon Spring and Sheep Mountain Spring.

As for the "deep worn trail" that "was so much larger and worn so much deeper in the rocks than any trail I had seen on those mountains.....", you might want to ask yourself just how many trails Deering had seen in there.

Jim Bark's telling of the tale is quite different than Ely's. Since he got his story directly from John Chunning, and was not under any outside pressures, I would be inclined to stick to his rendition.

My theory does not depart from the Jim Bark/John Chunning story, except for the Salt River distance. Considering the rest of the story, that distance is more than suspect, it is impossible.

One last thing about the Bark Notes: Bark leaves us one more clue that is very important in the Joe Deering story. "This mine that John discovered while hunting the Dutchman is at least twelve miles off the course...." That mine was at the Salt River. Twelve miles would put you right smack-dab in the middle of Chuck Kenworthy's conclusions, and Roger's last post.......well......almost smack-dab. :lol:

Now using your own theories concerning Deering's assessment of miles in the mountains, we would be right back to "smack-dab".

One last question for you: Are you sure there is NO trail in the area I have laid out as "possible'? If so, can you tell us why you were searching there? :)

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Bluff Spring Mountain?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

Anything is possible, but only if we throw out the bulk of the Jim Bark directions for this story. I tend to believe there is a good deal of truth in the telling of this story, with some misdirection thrown in here and there.
Not being sure just where those false trails are added, we can at least toss those which are obviously false.

One of the things that Bark/Chunning says is: "Their next trail was the one Deering found and followed, went up Havalina Canyon over into the horse country, down Peter's Mesa to the Charlebois trail and thence to Marsh Valley (their camp) a roundabout way but always high up and fairly free from favorable spots for Indian ambuscades."

I put the above quote in again, so you and others would not need to go back and forth here.

My theory can't be thrown out because it does not follow the above description of the trail. Yours can. That does not mean you are wrong, and I am right, only that my trail follows the passage to a "T".

Your trail takes you off of the "always high up" and actually back down into the "favorable spots for Indian ambuscades." It goes nowhere near
the "horse country" that is pretty much laid out in Ely's book. Peter has said that what we consider the horse country may not be what actually was in that era. As Ely was closer to the time period than Peter, I will have to accept Ely's description as the "best evidence".

If Deering was camped at Bluff Spring or Crystal Spring, as you have surmised, the only way he could travel "up the big canyon" would take him towards Holmes Spring and LaBarge Canyon. He also said "I saw him (his burro) about half way up the side of the mountain and about a mile and a half up the canyon above the camp." (enphasis in bold by Joe)

There is no trail up the side of Bluff Spring Mountain that is a "mile and a half up the canyon" from either Spring. If you go UP the canyon that far, you are traveling away from the trail.

Finally, you have left going down Peter's Mesa out of your conclusions. No one can say that you are wrong, but you do have to stretch the story a bit to make it correct. That is, once again, how we end up with Walz (Waltz) being a spy and a "Sargent" in the Civil War. We change stories one word at a time, and sometimes end up with a new story altogether. At some point in time, if not challanged, the new story becomes accepted fact.

If there is truth to any of this, it can only be found by going back to the people who were closest to the events. Once you set them aside for the "newer facts", you will end up in New Mexico. :) This last was for a friend who has doubts that the Stone Maps relate to Arizona at all.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by TGH »

Elys "Horse Country" is inncorrect. Sorry.

Am wondering why you dismiss the distance to the Salt River so readily, but cling to the 7 mile distance from camp to mine? Could it not be 5 miles? or 4? or 8?

I did a little training hike today. Went from 1st Water to Bull Pass then up Black Mesa trail thru Garden Valley back to 1st Water. (saw some nice blonde chicks on the way too). Had no idea how far the distance was, thought my feet felt like it was a ways. If someone would ask I would say 6-8 miles, but according to Carlsons book it was more like 11-12. Point being that it is difficult to measure distance in the mountains, even though I know approximate distances from point to point pretty well. Deering had no top maps telling him it was 1.5 miles from Labarge Spring to Charlyboy, so his distanc measurements cant be taken as gospel.

>>One last question for you: Are you sure there is NO trail in the area I have laid out as "possible'? If so, can you tell us why you were searching there? <<

Deering found a well worn trail that lead to the mine area. I do not think he found that trail going up Trap Canyon or Sheep Mtn.

I do not search for the mine on Black (Charlyboy) Mtn. But if you think I do, thats fine by me............

P
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What To Keep

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

I thought I made it pretty clear why I threw out the "mile, mile and a half, two miles". Roger also commented on the distance given.
I don't actually cling to a specific distance on this story, but will take that which is possible over that which is not.

Having you say Ely is "incorrect", without saying why, is less than convincing. Ely/Bark talked to the people who were there, and that carries more weight than the word, "incorrect". You may very well be right, but why argue the point, without some kind of evidence?

I try to always give some reasoning behind my theories and conclusions.
Where possible, I quote credible sources. I feel confident that I have done that here.

As for the trail itself, I can tell you that I spent a good many years in the area of the heart, before I finally found it, and the trail that is worn into the bedrock that leads to it. I am going to guess that I am not the only person on this Forum to experience that kind of surprise.

What is great about this Forum, is that we can present new ways of looking at old clues and stories and have people like you and I, tear our ideas apart. You are a long way from doing that here, but I admire your efforts.

As I have said before, concerning the Joe Deering/LDM legends, "I have no dog in this fight". On the other hand, I am passing familiar with the stories, and have spent some time with those who were serious searchers.

I did not say you were searching "Black (Charlyboy) Mtn." You have not denied nor confirmed you searched that area. Therefore, the operative words in my question were, "If so".

It is always interesting to see who will show up trying to move a conversation out of a specific area and into another. I am really looking forward to the next one. I don't really believe I am correct here, but have yet to see someone come up with a reason why I must be wrong. :lol:

"I do not think he found that trail going up Trap Canyon or Sheep Mtn."

OK.....Why not?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by zentull »

Joe,

If Bark and Ely hid anything and knew the general vincinity of Javelina canyon and horse country and your interpretation is correct, why did they spend so much time on Bluff Springs? They seem to believe that the LDM and Deerings mine are one and the same. Deering found Ore at the tunnel and none at the 2 filled pits. Could be another Peralta mine that was played out and filled by the Apaches. Could be Magills mine or something like that. There are only 2 trails that I can say would elicit Deerings reaction from my point of view and both are on Bluff Springs. One would not seem to fit Deerings distance at all, the other can feel like it does.

Deering must have had great eyesight being able to spot a Burro up a mountain a mile and half away. That is up the mountain side and still a mile and a half up the canyon. Did he hear the burro and what was his guesstimate after closing in ?

Everytime I am up on Bluff Springs someone shows up with an 80 pound pack with shovels,rope and a pick and illuminates me on how the mine is at Peters Mesa, Tortilla Flats, Black mountain or a dozen other places. I pick Bluff Springs figuring everyone says its played out and it still throws me a curveball on occasion. I like Bluff Springs because the LDM is not there and therfore there should be fewer dutch hunters. The Peraltas were though, so there is plenty to sate my curiosity in the meantime without killing myself going in deeper.

I will try to walk Rogers route next week hoping Deering left some graffitti like " Joe was here ". I was hoping I had another month, but it looks like its going to heat up early this year or at least feels that way. I promised my wife no more summer jaunts through the mountains. Been married too long to start over now.
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Why?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

I suppose that is the big question.

I don't know that they spent anymore time on Bluff Spring Mountain, than any other place they were following leads in the Superstitions. I would say they spent time there because of what they found. It did fit a lot of the clues in the story.

The real question you may want to ask yourself, is: Why did they leave Bluff Spring Mountain?

Jim Bark's conclusions as to where the LDM was located, had nothing to do with Bluff Spring Mountain. That may be a clue you will need to dig for, but it is there.

The thing about Bluff Spring Mountain, is something I have mentioned before. That mountain has defined borders. It has been searched from piller to post, without finding anything of value. As you said, folks with ropes, helicopters, mules, horses, dirt bikes and pogo-sticks have been up there on top and mountain goated the sides.

Have a wonderful hike. Nice views, but there are much better ones in the Supes.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

Zentull

Good points. ARE the Deering and Waltz mine one in the same? My answer is probably not, though they are most likely in the same vicinity. I beleive Deering said he found the ore at a dump, rather than at the tunnel itself and that both pits above the tunnel were pretty well filled in. By Apache? Erosion? Waltz? Who knows. Waltz said he never left signs of a dump...so if Deering found a dump (and I think it is likely he did) was this the same as the one Waltz hid? Dunno.

Joe

The reason I think he did not find the trail in the Trap vicinity is because he found it in another location, obviously. Deering was working the various canyons in the mountains trying to backtrail the Soldiers. He did this from the NORTH.

Why north? a) He knew the soldiers entered the mtns from that direction
b) he told Chunning that "next time I am going to go out through the desert" (paraphrasing here, dont have my notes in front of me). That indicates to me that THIS time he came in from the north.

Now, if Deering did come down Labarge there are a couple of trail candidates circa 1884/85 that he might have run into:

a)The old trail up Geronimo Head across from the Paint Mine
b) The trail up Squaw Canyon

He would have run into both of those trails before he had gotten down to the area of Labarge Spring....providing mr burro cooperated and decided to go on his morning constitutional.

Just off the top of my head here, so who knows. The important thing here is where he ended up and not which trail he followed to egt there.

P

>>
Jim Bark's conclusions as to where the LDM was located, had nothing to do with Bluff Spring Mountain. That may be a clue you will need to dig for, but it is there. <<

You are, of course, correct here. This is my opinion and I, of course might be wrong. But I doubt it.......
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Deering's Trail

Post by Roger »

I gave in my posting above the following Bark Note reference:

1. "Well, I was camped at at a spring in a big canyon, and was headed for the King. I had my breakfast, took my canteen full of water and went to look for my burro. I saw him about half a mile up the side of the mountain, about a mile and a half up the canyon and above the camp. As I started toward him, I saw a deep worn trail and it was so much larger and worn so much deeper in the rocks than any trail I had seen in those mountains, that it excited my curiosity. I left the burro, and started to follow it, and I believe I followed it six or seven miles, and came to the worse place I ever saw. There was a tunnel, and it been walled up." (Page 100, Thomas Probert Version)

Peter:

If Dearing struck the well worn trail by coming in from the North, where could he have gone from there to travel 6 to 7 miles?

Zentul:

I hate to send you on a goose chase hike over Bluff Spring Mtn without a little more information on the old trail there. The most detailed mapping of that old trail I have found is a map by J.A. Stirrat that was published in 1948 in Anaheim, CA. The Phoenix Burton Barr Central Library has a copy of this map with the following call letters:

AZ Ref Map
G4332 59 1948 St58M
Arizona Room
Map Drawers - No Checkout
Floor 4

The map is 17"x21" and I made a copy of it by photo copying letter size blocks of it and then cut and pasting them together at home to have a full map. This map is fairly good detail and clearly delineates the old trail that begins above Bluff Springs and goes across Bluff Spring Mtn and then down off the North end into La Barge Canyon. This map also shows the old trail above Charlebois Canyon on Peters Mesa that goes North across the East side of Malapais Mtn and Geromino Head and then down to Tortilla Flats. That's a real good hike also! Note that this is the same map that Walter Gassler found in the old Phoenix Library that led him to search on the North end of Peters Mesa based on the route of this old trail.

If you send me your email in a PM, I will scan and send you a 1960 vintage map that also shows this trail. It is only 8.5"x11" and is hand drawn, but it gives the general route of this trail. The map quality is not very good. The Stirrat map is the best.

I think I would place much more credit in the Bark Notes for accuracy than Sims Ely's book for two reasons:

1. I think Bark wrote his notes mostly for himself and his heirs to capture the many stories he had collected on the LDM and the adventures he had searching for it. It does not appear that he was planning to write a book with it, so he may have stayed more factual on his accounts - not trying to cover up locations. Many of Bark's adventures did not involve Sims Ely and he spent considerable more time in the mountains than Ely did.
2. Jim Bark died in 1938 and wrote his notes over several years prior to that. Sims Ely had Bark's notes in his possession when he wrote his book in 1953 - 15 yrs after Bark died. This is a fairly good time lapse. Sims Ely would certainly have an interest in protecting key information in a published book and he also tended to write more like a novelest than a factual reporter as Bark seemed to have done.

My 2 cents worth on that subject.

Great exchange on this topic!

Roger
Edited 4/27/06 - Missed the mile and a half up the canyon part in my Bark quote No. 1 above. Typing too fast!
Last edited by Roger on Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Das Trail

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness Area has the trail, as I recall.
Being at the store is not much good for my memory.

Good luck.

Joe

Roger,

You beat me to the punch with Peter. I believe you are on the money.

Joe
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Bluff Spring Mtn Trail

Post by Roger »

Zentul & Joe:

Joe is correct that Jack Carlson covers a protion of the old trail over Bluff Spring Mtn in his book, Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness. On page 92, Trip 12, he explains how to get onto the old Ely-Anderson Trail above Bluff Spring and then up on top of the mtn. On page 97, Trip 14 Hidden Valley Loop Trail, he describes how to go on toward the North end of Bluff Spring Mtn and then around the NW side to the old Glen Magill working area and back around South to get back down the same way. These trips do not show how the old trail contines NE across Bluff Spring Mtn and then down into La Barge which the Stirrat map does. Carlson's book is a great asset, but it sounds like you are very familar with this route already.

Roger
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Post by TGH »

Roger,

I have repeatedly said that I do not think Deering travelled the full 7 miles. I beleive it was perhaps 5 miles or so. A drastic elevation change (or two) would account for this discrepancy...that and the difference between city miles and "mountain" miles.

For example. Lets say one is camped in Marsh Valley and is headed for the Spike in Peters Canyon that stands between Peters Dome and Tortilla Mtn. As the raven flies this is perhaps what 3 miles or so? Try climbing up Squaw across Peters Mesa then up the Dome, down the Dome and into Peters Canyon and let me know how far you think that hike is. 5 miles? 10? 20? It will feel like it.

I do not believe Deering accurately knew the distance he travelled on the way to the mine. His obviously erroneous reference to 1-2 miles from the Salt just reinforces this.

OR.............

Did Bark report this erroneously on purpose? That wouldnt surprise me in the least.

P
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Good Points

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger and Peter,

You have both made good points here. The distance problems could just as easily originated with John Chunning. Makes no difference......they are not something you can hang your hat on.

Once you reach that conclusion, you must take the other clues as the primary directions to the location. We know the distances are off. They may be off on purpose, or by accident. We can't prove, as far as I know, that the other clues are in error.

"Big Canyon" seems to be a repeated clue. Going UP the canyon another. Going into "the horse country" another. "Down Peter's Mesa" another and camping at a spring a given.

As Roger has noted, Deering went looking for his burro, and saw it half way up a mountain. While that could have been anywhere, we are told that the trail he followed went "into the horse country". Bark says he found the willow tree and the monuments. He knew where the "horse country" was, and that's the area he references. Makes no difference where others believe that area is. What's important is where Bark placed it and how that relates to the willow tree and the monuments.

Now unless someone has some pretty good evidence that Bark places the "horse country" somewhere other than where Ely does, I would have to stick with my theory on this trail. It would be fun to have someone convince me where I have gone wrong, but that has not happened yet. :lol:

Lot's of evidence, at least that which is available to us peons, puts us in the areas I have mentioned. While Bluff Spring Mountain had promise, it has all melted away with the passing years. Getting crowded up there.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by zentull »

Thanks for the info. I was already planning on going up the Ely-Anderson trail, So I figured might as well have some sort of purpose besides just a hundredth trip just for fun. I have been thinking about going back to the Weaver mountains next fall and rotating my hunts back and forth. So the last couple of trips this spring are purely recreational for the most part.

" I saw him about half way up the side of the mountain and about a mile and a half up the canyon and above the camp." No wonder it is a lost mine, even the various versions of Barks notes can't agree.
I got my version from someone I helped out years ago. He thought he was passing the torch so to speak.

Joe,

You have to stick to the area that pays off the most. Bluff Springs has been very good to me, its just a hell of a place to drag a deer out of. I would try your route, but I was planning on having fun. That would be a hell of a trip cutting trail through trap canyon and all. By the time I got around to Peters Mesa I might not think so well of you. Of course curiosity has changed my mind while on the trail before.......
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Post by TGH »

>>That would be a hell of a trip cutting trail through trap canyon and all. By the time I got around to Peters Mesa I might not think so well of you. <<

Zentull

This is exactly right. And Deering would have had to make this trip, look over the mine area, cut a + in a willow and BACK in one day.

P
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Post by zentull »

One other thing we should remember is that Deering was heading to the Silver King so he would have naturally traveled North to South. But he would have travelled otherwise in returning to the mine. Waltz seemed to travel from the North to South as well, but when planning to show Julia and Reiney the way he planned on entering from the otherside.

Chunning had to be at the Ranch around the same time as Thomas and the Petrasches. Chunning would have had a head start possibly, but I have not heard of any interaction between them. Of course Dick Holmes was on their heels as well. It is odd how 3 groups of people were searching for the same thing at the same time and Bark either kept them separate for reasons unknown or somehow felt it would be better story by creating separation.
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Three Points Of Seperation?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

I don't find that strange at all. It's been going on ever since Waltz died, and it is still going on today. Who knows how many people Bark was stringing along and keeping apart. I would guess we don't know the half of it.

It seems a no brainer to me, that Dick Holmes was following Julia, probably so close that the swishing of her skirts was keeping him cool.
Man who would follow a killer :roll: like Waltz, would not hesatate to follow a woman and a greenhorn kid, if he thought they had the directions to the LDM.

My guess is that he finally realized they were completely lost, and decided to send Brownie out on his own. Brownie knew what happened and was smart enough to do the correct thing.

Why did he fail? He was missing......something. Only one person, for sure, knew if Waltz actually had a mine, and he ain't talking. Now, is it possible that Julia and Rhiney also knew what they were looking for was not a mine?

Why no mine? The two soldiers and Joe Deering found the mine by accident. Just stumbled on it. They had no information at all. Since that time we have the accumulated LDM knowledge and clues gathered by almost every Dutch Hunter to take up the hunt and we are no closer to the location than Julia was.

Perhaps the next book will hold that one clue 8O .......maybe I should get started on it. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by zentull »

Joe,

You should understand my strategy is to stumble along until in a moment of complete ignorance I find it all. Then I will forget where its at so I can survive to write my book. I figure hunting for the LDM is a bit like selling water by the river. I got no clue what everyone else is really looking for, I found it long ago. I do my hunting before and after, but never in the mountains. I've seen too many haunted eyes and desperate treasure seekers to get too serious. I am going to keep the memories happy and upbeat.

Roger,

I sent a PM with my email, it is also listed in the memberlist.

By the way Dr Glover uses the 1 1/2 miles for the burro as well in his book. So now if I am wrong I am in good company.
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