Novice,
According to the manuscript Brownie started looking at around 17 which gives hime a year or 2 in which to meet Chuning. Though the story of the meeting is doubtful as is most of the manuscript. At least it wasn't another dramatic deathbed story. Brownies campfire chat is typical of the " Dick Holmes is a great guy" chatter that permeates the manuscript. The other problem I have with the story is that Jim Bark did not seem fond of Dick Holmes and Chuning appears to be rather close to Bark and yet overly fond of Mr Holmes. Birds of a feather flock together, Chuning may have met Brownie and not wanting to hurt Brownies feelings just brushed him off nicely. Or the conversation could be taken in the sarcastic tones, that I always percieve them and embellished to soften the real story.
Deerings Trail
>>How about some visions next time including topo maps and longitude/latitude coordinates?<<
Heck one doesnt need a vision for that. Just throw everything in the pot and see what you come up with. Even in the old days when I was a rookie at this I spooked some folks when I began asking about a certain somewhere. Just put your thinking cap on..... Your feet will not be glad with you, however.
Heck one doesnt need a vision for that. Just throw everything in the pot and see what you come up with. Even in the old days when I was a rookie at this I spooked some folks when I began asking about a certain somewhere. Just put your thinking cap on..... Your feet will not be glad with you, however.
Interesting Notes
A lot of interesting notes were made in this thread:
"According to the Death Certificate (Arizona Birth and Death Records)of John Chuning, he died November 11, 1910 in Pinal County, Tortilla Flat and is buried in the Mesa Cemetery."
Comment: For some reason I thought that there were stories of Chuning interacting with Tex Barkley, but if Chuning died in 1910 Bark still owned the ranch???
"Much of what Brownie wrote was "common talk" in those days. It's fairly obvious he took the writings of some of the more flowery authors and put his own embellishments on them. That assumes he wrote them at all."
Comment: He had the story of the Indians who found the mine by starting at three tanks in a valley. Did anyone else write about that before him? I guess the alternative is he made up the story to go with his find of three tanks in a valley. And I guess the third alternative is he made up the story and the find....
"Just how much time did Chuning's partner (Jim Bark) spend searching the area of Tortillia Springs? John left NO personal writings concerning the story. He told Bark what he could."
Comment: Sims Ely had Bark's notes when he wrote his book didn't he? People always imply that the Bark notes were more accurate than Ely's book because they weren't for publication. But if Chuning was Bark's partner you would have thought Ely would have mentioned it...unless Bark deliberately censored his notes so Ely was kept in the dark...
"According to the Death Certificate (Arizona Birth and Death Records)of John Chuning, he died November 11, 1910 in Pinal County, Tortilla Flat and is buried in the Mesa Cemetery."
Comment: For some reason I thought that there were stories of Chuning interacting with Tex Barkley, but if Chuning died in 1910 Bark still owned the ranch???
"Much of what Brownie wrote was "common talk" in those days. It's fairly obvious he took the writings of some of the more flowery authors and put his own embellishments on them. That assumes he wrote them at all."
Comment: He had the story of the Indians who found the mine by starting at three tanks in a valley. Did anyone else write about that before him? I guess the alternative is he made up the story to go with his find of three tanks in a valley. And I guess the third alternative is he made up the story and the find....
"Just how much time did Chuning's partner (Jim Bark) spend searching the area of Tortillia Springs? John left NO personal writings concerning the story. He told Bark what he could."
Comment: Sims Ely had Bark's notes when he wrote his book didn't he? People always imply that the Bark notes were more accurate than Ely's book because they weren't for publication. But if Chuning was Bark's partner you would have thought Ely would have mentioned it...unless Bark deliberately censored his notes so Ely was kept in the dark...
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Sam Brannan
- Greenhorn
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- Location: Sutterville, California
thanks
TGH
I think you're right about the triangle. Actually, I believe it's off far more than just a tad. I was just trying to apply the discription of the mine's location to Joe's discription of the trail. If it's there and everybody's missed it over the last 100+ years, it must be so well covered that it will never be found. I'd think there'd still be traces of the trail, however.
If I were to search that area (and I'm not), I think I'd access it from the Tortilla Ranch side via Peter's trail, instead of up Squaw...
Sam Brannan
I think you're right about the triangle. Actually, I believe it's off far more than just a tad. I was just trying to apply the discription of the mine's location to Joe's discription of the trail. If it's there and everybody's missed it over the last 100+ years, it must be so well covered that it will never be found. I'd think there'd still be traces of the trail, however.
If I were to search that area (and I'm not), I think I'd access it from the Tortilla Ranch side via Peter's trail, instead of up Squaw...
Sam Brannan
Sam
But the climb up Squaw is so...........invigorating. I imagine some have used more flavorful adjectives to describe it.
armchair
I believe the 3 tinajas are a valid clue. Have a pic of them in fact filled with water, right where you figure they would be. These particular tanks sit one above the other like stairs. They are not located in a "valley", but head up canyon....or down canyno dependiung on where u are standing.
Roger
Chunning climbed up and down mountains throughout the range. From Tortilla and Geronimo Head down to Coffee Flat. Take your pick.
But the climb up Squaw is so...........invigorating. I imagine some have used more flavorful adjectives to describe it.
armchair
I believe the 3 tinajas are a valid clue. Have a pic of them in fact filled with water, right where you figure they would be. These particular tanks sit one above the other like stairs. They are not located in a "valley", but head up canyon....or down canyno dependiung on where u are standing.
Roger
Chunning climbed up and down mountains throughout the range. From Tortilla and Geronimo Head down to Coffee Flat. Take your pick.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Meets and Bounds
Peter,
"Chunning climbed up and down mountains throughout the range. From Tortilla and Geronimo Head down to Coffee Flat. Take your pick."
Interesting choice of boundries. There is no doubt, that you left out a good portion of the search area of John Chuning. Is there a reason for that? Do you think he made it west of Boulder Canyon?
AC,
You would be very hard pressed to find a single book on the LDM, where a lot of things don't check out. There is no doubt that Brownie spent a lot of time in the Supes. Like all of us, he heard a lot of stories that matched the terrain.
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If any of the Holmes family is looking in on this conversation, I apologize for any slight. The evidence seems plain to me, but I realize I could be completely wrong.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
"Chunning climbed up and down mountains throughout the range. From Tortilla and Geronimo Head down to Coffee Flat. Take your pick."
Interesting choice of boundries. There is no doubt, that you left out a good portion of the search area of John Chuning. Is there a reason for that? Do you think he made it west of Boulder Canyon?
AC,
You would be very hard pressed to find a single book on the LDM, where a lot of things don't check out. There is no doubt that Brownie spent a lot of time in the Supes. Like all of us, he heard a lot of stories that matched the terrain.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If any of the Holmes family is looking in on this conversation, I apologize for any slight. The evidence seems plain to me, but I realize I could be completely wrong.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
>>Interesting choice of boundries. There is no doubt, that you left out a good portion of the search area of John Chuning. Is there a reason for that? Do you think he made it west of Boulder Canyon?<<
No reason other than I didnt feel like listing every mountain in the western range. Just used a north/south axis.
He may have been all over the Boulder Canyon country for all I know. Dont really care..... as looking for the Deering mine/LDM in that country is a waste of time.
As always the above is my opinion and I might be wrong......but I doubt it.
P
No reason other than I didnt feel like listing every mountain in the western range. Just used a north/south axis.
He may have been all over the Boulder Canyon country for all I know. Dont really care..... as looking for the Deering mine/LDM in that country is a waste of time.
As always the above is my opinion and I might be wrong......but I doubt it.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Wasting Time
Peter,
A "waste of time" seems a little harsh, especially considering the quality of the people that have wasted there time in that area over the years.
One fella I am reminded of, thought he had worked out the Joe Deering trail perfectly. Thought anyone who was not on "that" trail was an idiot.
Last I heard, he decided after umpteen years, that he was (maybe) wrong.
Unless you are packing the Dutchman's gold out in your Roy Rogers lunch pail, probably would not be a bad idea to keep an open mind. You never know, there just may have been a crossing on the Salt, south of Ft. McDowell.
One turn of the spade can change a hundred years of "fact", and has.
Take care,
Joe
A "waste of time" seems a little harsh, especially considering the quality of the people that have wasted there time in that area over the years.
One fella I am reminded of, thought he had worked out the Joe Deering trail perfectly. Thought anyone who was not on "that" trail was an idiot.
Last I heard, he decided after umpteen years, that he was (maybe) wrong.
Unless you are packing the Dutchman's gold out in your Roy Rogers lunch pail, probably would not be a bad idea to keep an open mind. You never know, there just may have been a crossing on the Salt, south of Ft. McDowell.
One turn of the spade can change a hundred years of "fact", and has.
Take care,
Joe
Deering's Mine = Waltz's Mine???
Peter, you wrote:
"Roger
What makes you think the Deering Mine and Waltzs are one in the same?
They most probably are two different kettle of fish.....imho. "
Having laid all the Deering, Thorne, and Waltz mine clues out and compared them, Yes, I do believe that all three of these are all covering a single mine location. Also, if the Inidans did cover all of the mines except one that was high up in a ravine and impossible to find in the early 1860's, what mine would be left for finders/searchers to discover in the 1870's and later?
Roger
"Roger
What makes you think the Deering Mine and Waltzs are one in the same?
They most probably are two different kettle of fish.....imho. "
Having laid all the Deering, Thorne, and Waltz mine clues out and compared them, Yes, I do believe that all three of these are all covering a single mine location. Also, if the Inidans did cover all of the mines except one that was high up in a ravine and impossible to find in the early 1860's, what mine would be left for finders/searchers to discover in the 1870's and later?
Roger
Joe
Like I said, that was my opinion and I might be wrong.......etc etc.
Roger
Am not convinced Thornes "mine" had anything to do with the Superstitions.
It IS possible that the Deering/Waltz mine are one in the same, but I am leaning more and more towards them being at two different (though related)
locations.
As far as Indians covering mines....that may have happened, probably did. Would they leave one mine uncovered? I dont think so, not the folks interested in covering them in the first place. Those mines were covered up to keep the white eyes and nakai-yes away AND to please the Spirits of the Mountain.
I think they would have covered and hidden all of them.
So how did Waltz find it? He was either shown (ala Bark) or stumbled upon the location (ala Holmes). The Holmes story makes more sense to me here....but who knows.
Like I said, that was my opinion and I might be wrong.......etc etc.
Roger
Am not convinced Thornes "mine" had anything to do with the Superstitions.
It IS possible that the Deering/Waltz mine are one in the same, but I am leaning more and more towards them being at two different (though related)
locations.
As far as Indians covering mines....that may have happened, probably did. Would they leave one mine uncovered? I dont think so, not the folks interested in covering them in the first place. Those mines were covered up to keep the white eyes and nakai-yes away AND to please the Spirits of the Mountain.
I think they would have covered and hidden all of them.
So how did Waltz find it? He was either shown (ala Bark) or stumbled upon the location (ala Holmes). The Holmes story makes more sense to me here....but who knows.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Opinions
Peter,
Your opinion is just a good as anyone else's. By the same token, it's no better either.
I would never say you are "wasting" your time. How could I possibly know that? Unless Late showed you the money, in which case you would be wasting your time on this Forum.
My point was that you were calling some pretty bright Dutch Hunters fools.
The man hours spent trying to solve this puzzle are staggering. Many of them had sources that were very close to the events that started this whole thing.
No one can diminish or demean the time and effort you have spent on your own search. The people you have associated yourself with are some of the most respect and admired Dutch Hunters in the field.
There is nothing unique in that association. The same kind of thing has been going on for much longer than either of us have been alive. It will continue long after we have made that final trip, and some other smart guy will be using our notes, dreams and ideas for his toilet paper.
Not sure I ever did anything except offer another slant on some of the things you have suggested on this Forum, aside from our personal comments, and that was just to foster discussion and the possibility that there could be another "truth" to consider.
Considering the number of people who have inched their way over that entire range, untill someone shows us the Dutchman, no one has wasted their time.
Happy to say, I have probably not wasted any time at all, on the LDM.
If the mine was covered over by the Apache, why was a story made up to convince everyone that it had not been hidden? Now that's a waste of time.
Take care,
Joe
Your opinion is just a good as anyone else's. By the same token, it's no better either.
I would never say you are "wasting" your time. How could I possibly know that? Unless Late showed you the money, in which case you would be wasting your time on this Forum.
My point was that you were calling some pretty bright Dutch Hunters fools.
The man hours spent trying to solve this puzzle are staggering. Many of them had sources that were very close to the events that started this whole thing.
No one can diminish or demean the time and effort you have spent on your own search. The people you have associated yourself with are some of the most respect and admired Dutch Hunters in the field.
There is nothing unique in that association. The same kind of thing has been going on for much longer than either of us have been alive. It will continue long after we have made that final trip, and some other smart guy will be using our notes, dreams and ideas for his toilet paper.
Not sure I ever did anything except offer another slant on some of the things you have suggested on this Forum, aside from our personal comments, and that was just to foster discussion and the possibility that there could be another "truth" to consider.
Considering the number of people who have inched their way over that entire range, untill someone shows us the Dutchman, no one has wasted their time.
Happy to say, I have probably not wasted any time at all, on the LDM.
If the mine was covered over by the Apache, why was a story made up to convince everyone that it had not been hidden? Now that's a waste of time.
Take care,
Joe
Deerings Trail
I do not know why BUT I have trouble with the Apachie filling and covering the MINES ! I just can,t fully pic. that for some reason? bill 
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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They Were Experts
Bill,
Not hard to imagine at all. The Apache were experts, and I mean "EXPERTS" at sealing off caves so no one could find them, except for the Apache.
A very long history of this practice is well documented. It does seem unlikely that they used anything except rocks, dirt and grass to do the job, but I suppose anything is possible.
I doubt they "filled" the mines, just sealed the entrances.
Take care,
Joe
Not hard to imagine at all. The Apache were experts, and I mean "EXPERTS" at sealing off caves so no one could find them, except for the Apache.
A very long history of this practice is well documented. It does seem unlikely that they used anything except rocks, dirt and grass to do the job, but I suppose anything is possible.
I doubt they "filled" the mines, just sealed the entrances.
Take care,
Joe
Deerings Trail
JOE; I can see them sealing off a small cave or mine ? BUT I can not see them working for 6 months? to fill up a great big hole? Joe by the 1860,s the apachia were mostly living in small groups just to stay alive and a large force of them could not stay in one place that long to perform the work. The men would have left if the women didn,t! I would think! JOE we are talking about people living on the margin here? not fat people, not wealthy people, I don,t think there would have been enough GAME in one spot to support them. These people stayed on the go for food and game at all times. I think the spanish and mexi,s closed the mines. bill
Covering Mines
I've read the covered mines that have been found are filled with a cement like substance. McGill described his men having to use dynamite for weeks? months? to get through it. Doesn't seem like that would be done by either someone in a hurry or someone who ever intended (hoped) to come back.
I have come across 2 different areas worked that had been opened after being filled in the Superstitions. In both cases there was a tunnel located below the pit/prospect area. If you include Magills, that would be 3 similar areas that loosely fit the LDM description. I included a picture of one such spot in the members area. None of these areas had 2 pits located above the tunnel however. 2 of these areas are within a good hike of one another, the 3rd is a good distance. Waltz supposedly covered his pit, though he doesn't mention the 2nd being covered. I pretty much am ignorant of all things concerning mining, but the similarities have always led me to believe that the Peraltas worked several areas throughout the mountains. Deering could have located one of the other areas, which I doubt, that was played out. This could be the aforementioned area concerning Chuning. I am hesitant to say where these areas are for different reasons than Joe, except one is in the vincinity of Bluff Springs. The areas in question are difficult and nearly inaccessible, I do not want to feel responsible for sending the wrong person and reducing the membership of the board.
I have had experience working with a number of Native Americans over the years and the Apache descendants are good, solid,tireless workers. The women as a rule would put most of us to shame. I would never doubt the filling of the mines as has been passed on, it fits with my experiences. When you add the obvious and perhaps not so obvious reasons for doing so it makes perfect sense to me. So in my opinion it is not the numbers of people, but the reasoning that leads me to believe they would cover the various mines.
I have had experience working with a number of Native Americans over the years and the Apache descendants are good, solid,tireless workers. The women as a rule would put most of us to shame. I would never doubt the filling of the mines as has been passed on, it fits with my experiences. When you add the obvious and perhaps not so obvious reasons for doing so it makes perfect sense to me. So in my opinion it is not the numbers of people, but the reasoning that leads me to believe they would cover the various mines.
Deering,s Trail
ZEN; We are not talking about today,s indian,s. Today,s indian,s are a different breed altogather. The old indian buck was not broke into harness so to speak. He was geared mentally and physically to hunting and to war. He would not do womens work? That is what filling the mines would intell. I beleive they may have filled or covered a cave and a small hole or 2 but not the entire area. He would have run out of food for one thing. He didn,t have the FAT to fall back on. REMEMBER they had NO pick,s and shovels either. Everything would have to be done by hand too. I do not beleive that their food source was that great in the sup,s either. I think the area in the sup,s would hunt out pretty fast as with the plant food. Just how far could he range for game and get back to feed his people? Even if they had pick,s and shovels they had no skill with them.. There are many reason,s for my thinking this way. bill
The game population wouldn't take a hit in that area as in others due to the lack of population in the general vincinity. And those declines generally were after the turn of the century. The waterholes and springs were probably in much better shape in that time period than today. The Superstition range as a whole still are a good hunting ground today. I can imagine they were a very good area to hunt in that time period before our encroachment.
I didn't say Native Americans were generally hardworkers, just Apaches. Most groups other than the Apaches were useless depending on the reservations I worked. They also carried themselves with a unique sense of pride on doing their work. The Apaches almost all hated any other Native Americans they would work beside. I worked with one woman who would beat up the Navajos on one work site. I believe some ethnic groups just carry a capacity for hardwork better than others as a rule. We also have to remember this was sacred ground and that would get them to cowboy up if anything.
I didn't say Native Americans were generally hardworkers, just Apaches. Most groups other than the Apaches were useless depending on the reservations I worked. They also carried themselves with a unique sense of pride on doing their work. The Apaches almost all hated any other Native Americans they would work beside. I worked with one woman who would beat up the Navajos on one work site. I believe some ethnic groups just carry a capacity for hardwork better than others as a rule. We also have to remember this was sacred ground and that would get them to cowboy up if anything.
Joe
>>My point was that you were calling some pretty bright Dutch Hunters fools. <<
Dont really see where I called anyone...bright or otherwise....a fool. What I said was folks are wasting their time looking in the Boulder Canyon country for the LDM or Deering mine. Sorry, but if folks today are looking for those particular mines in that country, well they are indeed wasting their time.
As always, the above is my opinion and I may be wrong...but I doubt it.
Zentull
You are correct. There are several (many? lots? ) sites in the mountains where a tunnel is located below a pit. In fact I found one fairly close to the 1st Water trailhead a few weeks back. Not always, but most of the time it seems a working will have the classic tunnel/pit MO..... particuarly if the area was worked for any length of time. Stumbling on one today and one thinks "my oh my I found the LDM" cause it matches the clues. Problem is so do 20 others out there....
Bill
>>Today,s indian,s are a different breed altogather. <<
You are correct here, even concerning Apache, for 99% of Amerindians. There still is that 1% tho......
>>My point was that you were calling some pretty bright Dutch Hunters fools. <<
Dont really see where I called anyone...bright or otherwise....a fool. What I said was folks are wasting their time looking in the Boulder Canyon country for the LDM or Deering mine. Sorry, but if folks today are looking for those particular mines in that country, well they are indeed wasting their time.
As always, the above is my opinion and I may be wrong...but I doubt it.
Zentull
You are correct. There are several (many? lots? ) sites in the mountains where a tunnel is located below a pit. In fact I found one fairly close to the 1st Water trailhead a few weeks back. Not always, but most of the time it seems a working will have the classic tunnel/pit MO..... particuarly if the area was worked for any length of time. Stumbling on one today and one thinks "my oh my I found the LDM" cause it matches the clues. Problem is so do 20 others out there....
Bill
>>Today,s indian,s are a different breed altogather. <<
You are correct here, even concerning Apache, for 99% of Amerindians. There still is that 1% tho......
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Joe Ribaudo
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On The Money
Bill,
I would have to agree with Zen here.
The warriors were not the ones who would cover the mines, in any case.
I also doubt that the job took anywhere near six months. Any one who knows what they are doing, and having decent bow and arrows, could live very easily in the Superstitions. Left alone, I could do it myself.
The Apache did not, as you know, need a grocery store. It would not take any great numbers to cover those mines. The Mexicans did not make "big holes" in the ground. They only needed enough room to climb in and out, and follow the veins. I would bet that if and when this thing is found, it will be much smaller than anyone has imagined.
Respectfully,
Joe
I would have to agree with Zen here.
The warriors were not the ones who would cover the mines, in any case.
I also doubt that the job took anywhere near six months. Any one who knows what they are doing, and having decent bow and arrows, could live very easily in the Superstitions. Left alone, I could do it myself.
The Apache did not, as you know, need a grocery store. It would not take any great numbers to cover those mines. The Mexicans did not make "big holes" in the ground. They only needed enough room to climb in and out, and follow the veins. I would bet that if and when this thing is found, it will be much smaller than anyone has imagined.
Respectfully,
Joe
I have made 2 trips to the area I was told was Magills LDM site. I did not find the guardhouses or tunnel area there either time. I may have made a mistake or got the wrong information. I really still would like to search for those 2 things and get some pics of the mysterious tunnel area. Also I wanted to compare the area to others I have found. Anyone who wants to throw out coordinates or another location will be thanked. The place I went to didn't seem right or feel right and turned up nothing. I may have been the one who erred. I know the area is being restored, but the area I was in didn't fit with information from other sources.
The trash in the pile of debris by the pit areas in both said it all. You could see someone had been messing around there during a previous time, but it had been sometime before. Neither tunnel seemed to have been covered. Just the pit/prospect areas. I am sure they thought they were onto something. I was pretty excited for a few minutes until reality set in. The last trip I took to the tunnel pictured was in 2005 and looked as if there had been no change since my trip a few years before. I did check the surrounding area for any other pits and came up empty. I located the Bluff Springs one in the early eighties I think. The other was around 1990-91. In both cases I stumbled across them. They both just seem to appear from nowhere when you get right up on them. I am sure Magills was similar as are the ones others have found. How they discovered these areas to work in the first place is beyond me.
The trash in the pile of debris by the pit areas in both said it all. You could see someone had been messing around there during a previous time, but it had been sometime before. Neither tunnel seemed to have been covered. Just the pit/prospect areas. I am sure they thought they were onto something. I was pretty excited for a few minutes until reality set in. The last trip I took to the tunnel pictured was in 2005 and looked as if there had been no change since my trip a few years before. I did check the surrounding area for any other pits and came up empty. I located the Bluff Springs one in the early eighties I think. The other was around 1990-91. In both cases I stumbled across them. They both just seem to appear from nowhere when you get right up on them. I am sure Magills was similar as are the ones others have found. How they discovered these areas to work in the first place is beyond me.
>> I would bet that if and when this thing is found, it will be much smaller than anyone has imagined. <<
Joe
You are absolutely correct here. The folks doing the original mining werent digging any pits 75 feet across..or 7 feet across for that matter.
LDM and Deering hunters are most likely looking for covered over holes in the ground no more than 4 feet across..good luck finding them in that terrain folks.
I have always thought that finding the tunnel below would be much easier than finding the pits...no matter how well concealed a tunnel might be it will always be easier to find than a covered pit..unless the pit has sunk, of course.
Joe
You are absolutely correct here. The folks doing the original mining werent digging any pits 75 feet across..or 7 feet across for that matter.
LDM and Deering hunters are most likely looking for covered over holes in the ground no more than 4 feet across..good luck finding them in that terrain folks.
I have always thought that finding the tunnel below would be much easier than finding the pits...no matter how well concealed a tunnel might be it will always be easier to find than a covered pit..unless the pit has sunk, of course.