Joe,
I don't disagree with a word you've written. The Catholics kept great records, and indeed, there were churches with bells in the valley prior to St. Mary.
Brad
The Stone Maps
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Joe Ribaudo
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San Pablo
Brad,
Are you speaking of Tempe or De Bicuner?
Because of the way your question is formed, I assume you are talking about the church in the town of San Pablo. I believe it was built around 1881.
I have been to a number of churches in Mexico.
"are you suggesting you have reason to believe the earliest churches in the valley were not Catholic?"
Yes. The first church building in Phoenix was Methodist and built in 1871.
Not much research done, so I could be wrong.
Joe
Are you speaking of Tempe or De Bicuner?
Because of the way your question is formed, I assume you are talking about the church in the town of San Pablo. I believe it was built around 1881.
I have been to a number of churches in Mexico.
"are you suggesting you have reason to believe the earliest churches in the valley were not Catholic?"
Yes. The first church building in Phoenix was Methodist and built in 1871.
Not much research done, so I could be wrong.
Joe
San Pablo
joe,
Tempe.
“Following the establishment of Fort McDowell on the eastern edge of central Arizona’s Salt River Valley in 1865, enterprising farmers moved into the area. They dug out the irrigation canals left by the prehistoric Hohokam people and built new ones to carry Salt River water to their fields. Valley farms soon supplied food to Arizona’s military posts and mining towns.
The first settlers to move to the Tempe area, south of the Salt River and east of Phoenix, were Hispanic families from southern Arizona. They helped construct the first two irrigation canals, the Kirkland-McKinney Ditch (Mexican Ditch) and the San Francisco Canal, and started small farms to the east and west of a large butte (Tempe Butte). In 1872, some of these Mexican settlers founded a town called San Pablo east of Tempe Butte.”
That would put the Methodist church at least a year or so older than the chapel in San Pablo, and thirty years prior to the first Catholic church, Saint Mary's.
Does that sound right to you, Joe?
Meanwhile, I guess the Mexicans just didn't feel up to the task at the time. They must have been exhausted from digging all those ditches. Anyway, so what you got on the adobe chapel in San Pablo?
Brad
Tempe.
“Following the establishment of Fort McDowell on the eastern edge of central Arizona’s Salt River Valley in 1865, enterprising farmers moved into the area. They dug out the irrigation canals left by the prehistoric Hohokam people and built new ones to carry Salt River water to their fields. Valley farms soon supplied food to Arizona’s military posts and mining towns.
The first settlers to move to the Tempe area, south of the Salt River and east of Phoenix, were Hispanic families from southern Arizona. They helped construct the first two irrigation canals, the Kirkland-McKinney Ditch (Mexican Ditch) and the San Francisco Canal, and started small farms to the east and west of a large butte (Tempe Butte). In 1872, some of these Mexican settlers founded a town called San Pablo east of Tempe Butte.”
That would put the Methodist church at least a year or so older than the chapel in San Pablo, and thirty years prior to the first Catholic church, Saint Mary's.
Does that sound right to you, Joe?
Meanwhile, I guess the Mexicans just didn't feel up to the task at the time. They must have been exhausted from digging all those ditches. Anyway, so what you got on the adobe chapel in San Pablo?
Brad
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Joe Ribaudo
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Faulty Math.....
Brad.
The church in San Pablo was built in 1881. The Central Methodist Church in Phoenix was built in 1871. That makes the Methodist church ten years older.......by anyone's math.
St. Mary's Basilica was originally built in 1881. Don't know where you got the "thirty years", but that information is incorrect......as far as I know. These days, that's not very far.
Joe
The church in San Pablo was built in 1881. The Central Methodist Church in Phoenix was built in 1871. That makes the Methodist church ten years older.......by anyone's math.
St. Mary's Basilica was originally built in 1881. Don't know where you got the "thirty years", but that information is incorrect......as far as I know. These days, that's not very far.
Joe
Correction
Correction:
That would put the Methodist church at least a year or so older than the chapel in San Pablo, and thirty years prior to the first Catholic church in Phoenix, Saint Mary's.
According to the census, over half the population of Phoenix was Mexican at the time. Those Mexicans were nearly all Catholic, yet we are to believe they all worshiped over at the Swilling house?
Um...
That would put the Methodist church at least a year or so older than the chapel in San Pablo, and thirty years prior to the first Catholic church in Phoenix, Saint Mary's.
According to the census, over half the population of Phoenix was Mexican at the time. Those Mexicans were nearly all Catholic, yet we are to believe they all worshiped over at the Swilling house?
Um...
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Joe Ribaudo
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I Could, Of Course, Be Wrong......
Brad,
"The church in San Pablo was built in 1881. The Central Methodist Church in Phoenix was built in 1871. That makes the Methodist church ten years older.......by anyone's math."
Don't know about "the Swilling house", but "The first Catholic priest came to Phoenix in 1872, but it was not until after 1881 that an adobe church building, the Sacred Heart of St. Louis at Third and Monroe streets, replaced the Otero home as a place for Catholics to worship."
You asked me what I had, and that's all part of it.
Joe
"The church in San Pablo was built in 1881. The Central Methodist Church in Phoenix was built in 1871. That makes the Methodist church ten years older.......by anyone's math."
Don't know about "the Swilling house", but "The first Catholic priest came to Phoenix in 1872, but it was not until after 1881 that an adobe church building, the Sacred Heart of St. Louis at Third and Monroe streets, replaced the Otero home as a place for Catholics to worship."
You asked me what I had, and that's all part of it.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Tempe Historical Society.....
Brad,
The following is from the Tempe Historical Society:
"The workers who built the canals were mainly Hispanic and they, “not satisfied with Hayden’s Ferry, have laid out a new town...named San Pablo” west of Tempe on 80 acres of land that Kirkland donated. This site was south of the Tempe Butte and was bordered by present day College Avenue and University Drive. Proceeds from the sale of lots were donated for the construction of a Catholic church. Although the first Mass was held in San Pablo on April 12. 1872. the church was not built until 1882."
Hope that clears up a little of the confusion. The history of the time is often a bit uneven.
Guess it depends on who is writing that day. 1881...1882....Who's counting? 
Joe
The following is from the Tempe Historical Society:
"The workers who built the canals were mainly Hispanic and they, “not satisfied with Hayden’s Ferry, have laid out a new town...named San Pablo” west of Tempe on 80 acres of land that Kirkland donated. This site was south of the Tempe Butte and was bordered by present day College Avenue and University Drive. Proceeds from the sale of lots were donated for the construction of a Catholic church. Although the first Mass was held in San Pablo on April 12. 1872. the church was not built until 1882."
Hope that clears up a little of the confusion. The history of the time is often a bit uneven.
Guess it depends on who is writing that day. 1881...1882....Who's counting? Joe
Adobe
Joe,
yep, that's closer to ten years.
Oh, and yes, the original structure at Saint Mary's is even adobe, although the structure was not completed or dedicated until 1904. Again, we seem to be pulling info. from different sources. I pulled the information directly off their website.
Your date for San Pablo sounds good. That's the time frame. The chapel at San Pablo was also constructed of adobe. No surprises there, of course.
Remember...
you were very sure about the canal bit too, and you weren't even in the ballpark.
Like you said, there's no crime in being wrong, and I am wrong.
There was never an adobe chapel on that location... just a real clever twenty-four foot facade built by some kid for a few bucks. He did a damn good job too! The facade was nearly six feet thick, just like the real deal. The crumbling stucco over crumbling adobe was truly amazing! So real...
And the mature Ivy-like growth along the facade... I assume that grew there rather quickly... The addition of the really old bell that just happened to be available at the time was just pure luck as well.
In all, it's pretty obvious, isn't it Joe. As you stated, no-one would have settled in such a crummy location, being right along an old trail leading to water and all.
Admittedly, I was unaware there even was a Mexican community along the river at that location called el Salado, but what did I know?
Of course, being that you've been to Mexico many times, you are well aware of the Mexican tradition of building a small church in every tiny village and every few miles along any road leading anywhere.
I guess el Salado was the exception to the rule.
Brad
yep, that's closer to ten years.
Oh, and yes, the original structure at Saint Mary's is even adobe, although the structure was not completed or dedicated until 1904. Again, we seem to be pulling info. from different sources. I pulled the information directly off their website.
Your date for San Pablo sounds good. That's the time frame. The chapel at San Pablo was also constructed of adobe. No surprises there, of course.
Remember...
you were very sure about the canal bit too, and you weren't even in the ballpark.
Like you said, there's no crime in being wrong, and I am wrong.
There was never an adobe chapel on that location... just a real clever twenty-four foot facade built by some kid for a few bucks. He did a damn good job too! The facade was nearly six feet thick, just like the real deal. The crumbling stucco over crumbling adobe was truly amazing! So real...
And the mature Ivy-like growth along the facade... I assume that grew there rather quickly... The addition of the really old bell that just happened to be available at the time was just pure luck as well.
In all, it's pretty obvious, isn't it Joe. As you stated, no-one would have settled in such a crummy location, being right along an old trail leading to water and all.
Admittedly, I was unaware there even was a Mexican community along the river at that location called el Salado, but what did I know?
Of course, being that you've been to Mexico many times, you are well aware of the Mexican tradition of building a small church in every tiny village and every few miles along any road leading anywhere.
I guess el Salado was the exception to the rule.
Brad
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Joe Ribaudo
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Dates.....
Brad,
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Saint Mary's Basilica
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Saint Mary's Basilica was founded in 1881 and staffed by the Franciscan Friars since 1895. The church was completed in 1914, dedicated in 1915, and declared a National Historic Site in 1978.
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Historical information comes from many sources. Many of them are right, and more than a few are wrong. Same as you and I.
Let's just agree that you were correct about everything you wrote. I have no problem with that, nor saying I was wrong about everything.
This is a forum, and opposing opinions are voiced. Those who have no bias, such as I do, will read the posts, do their own research and come to their own conclusions.....assuming they are interested at all.
I believe you need to reread my emails concerning the points you made.
For the most part, I did not make definitive statements. The reason for that, was because I was only offering an opinion on your statements. Those opinions were not, however, without basis.
If you say there was a "Mexican community" at the wedding chapel location, I would be foolish to say there wasn't. Don't believe I ever did. I might have said I doubted it, but......
I fail to see the revelance of this entire conversation, but don't mind discussing the history of Arizona with someone as knowledgeable as you are.
Have a good night,
Joe
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saint Mary's Basilica
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Saint Mary's Basilica was founded in 1881 and staffed by the Franciscan Friars since 1895. The church was completed in 1914, dedicated in 1915, and declared a National Historic Site in 1978.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical information comes from many sources. Many of them are right, and more than a few are wrong. Same as you and I.
Let's just agree that you were correct about everything you wrote. I have no problem with that, nor saying I was wrong about everything.
This is a forum, and opposing opinions are voiced. Those who have no bias, such as I do, will read the posts, do their own research and come to their own conclusions.....assuming they are interested at all.
I believe you need to reread my emails concerning the points you made.
For the most part, I did not make definitive statements. The reason for that, was because I was only offering an opinion on your statements. Those opinions were not, however, without basis.
If you say there was a "Mexican community" at the wedding chapel location, I would be foolish to say there wasn't. Don't believe I ever did. I might have said I doubted it, but......
I fail to see the revelance of this entire conversation, but don't mind discussing the history of Arizona with someone as knowledgeable as you are.
Have a good night,
Joe
Joe
Joe,
your dates keep changing. What's the deal?
Did I mention I found a third photo of the structure? It's much like the first photo, but closer and from a slightly different angle.
The interesting thing about this photo is that the only structures visible in the photo are the chapel facade and the building right behind it.
There is no runway in the foreground however. That's right... no runway, and no sign of the airport. This one photo destroys your contention that the chapel facade was built along the runway.
Something else may have happened there, but your 'built along the runway' story is obviously bunk.
You may have read correctly, but what you read has now been dis-proven. Check the photo for yourself.
Have a nice day!
Brad
your dates keep changing. What's the deal?
Did I mention I found a third photo of the structure? It's much like the first photo, but closer and from a slightly different angle.
The interesting thing about this photo is that the only structures visible in the photo are the chapel facade and the building right behind it.
There is no runway in the foreground however. That's right... no runway, and no sign of the airport. This one photo destroys your contention that the chapel facade was built along the runway.
Something else may have happened there, but your 'built along the runway' story is obviously bunk.
You may have read correctly, but what you read has now been dis-proven. Check the photo for yourself.
Have a nice day!
Brad
Joe
Joe,
I posted the third photo of the facade in the 'bell' archive.
Just for the record, I think your research skills are amazing. You've blown my mind on a number of occasions. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
You are absolutely correct in alluding to the fact that our sources vary, and as such, so will our conclusions.
I see no crime in the two of us hammering away on a seemingly sidetracked subject, even if we never come to an agreement. This all began because I was fascinated by an old photo I obviously knew nothing about. Thanks to you, I now know considerably more. Along the way, I have made many silly assumptions and that is alright as well.
By the way...
here's a relevant side note to our ongoing side note. Did you notice in the pdf I sent you that Saint Mary's was paid for by some guy named Miguel Peralta?
Brad
I posted the third photo of the facade in the 'bell' archive.
Just for the record, I think your research skills are amazing. You've blown my mind on a number of occasions. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
You are absolutely correct in alluding to the fact that our sources vary, and as such, so will our conclusions.
I see no crime in the two of us hammering away on a seemingly sidetracked subject, even if we never come to an agreement. This all began because I was fascinated by an old photo I obviously knew nothing about. Thanks to you, I now know considerably more. Along the way, I have made many silly assumptions and that is alright as well.
By the way...
here's a relevant side note to our ongoing side note. Did you notice in the pdf I sent you that Saint Mary's was paid for by some guy named Miguel Peralta?
Brad
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Joe Ribaudo
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Seems Right......
Brad,
"I see no crime in the two of us hammering away on a seemingly sidetracked subject, even if we never come to an agreement. This all began because I was fascinated by an old photo I obviously knew nothing about. Thanks to you, I now know considerably more. Along the way, I have made many silly assumptions and that is alright as well."
You could just as well read the above as coming from me. I believe our saner conversations have widened both of our knowledge IQs. Pretty much why I post on forums.
One has to wonder if (that) Miguel Peralta wasn't a seminal source for the LDM story. Hard to seperate reality from fiction here.
Take care,
Joe
"I see no crime in the two of us hammering away on a seemingly sidetracked subject, even if we never come to an agreement. This all began because I was fascinated by an old photo I obviously knew nothing about. Thanks to you, I now know considerably more. Along the way, I have made many silly assumptions and that is alright as well."
You could just as well read the above as coming from me. I believe our saner conversations have widened both of our knowledge IQs. Pretty much why I post on forums.
One has to wonder if (that) Miguel Peralta wasn't a seminal source for the LDM story. Hard to seperate reality from fiction here.
Take care,
Joe
Joe
Joe,
good point!
I found it rather ironic the name would surface in this line of research.
What a strange turn.
Then again, the name alone justifies the entire line of research. Funny how I started with a photo of a rebuilt facade, and wound up finding a guy named Miguel Peralta in the right place at the right time, with a few extra bucks in his pocket.
Brad
good point!
I found it rather ironic the name would surface in this line of research.
What a strange turn.
Then again, the name alone justifies the entire line of research. Funny how I started with a photo of a rebuilt facade, and wound up finding a guy named Miguel Peralta in the right place at the right time, with a few extra bucks in his pocket.
Brad
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Joe Ribaudo
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Ironic Coincidence.....
Brad,
It is indeed "ironic", but just one of life's little coincidences.
As long as we stay out of politics, I enjoy our conversations. As you can see, I am paying no attention to that topic.
Wishing you and Gloria a Very Merry Christmas.
Joe and Carolyn
It is indeed "ironic", but just one of life's little coincidences.
As long as we stay out of politics, I enjoy our conversations. As you can see, I am paying no attention to that topic.
Wishing you and Gloria a Very Merry Christmas.
Joe and Carolyn
Politics
Joe,
I've just been too busy to contribute much lately. As for coincidence, I have no idea if this guy is somehow related to the others or not. Just really odd.
As for politics, I'll only say that presidential candidate Bill Richardson is featuring several paragraphs from an article I wrote on his campaign website. You probably shouldn't go read it though, as it isn't apt to sooth old wounds.
Very happy holidays to you and Carolyn,
Brad & Gloria
p.s.
I probably should have sent a card.
I've just been too busy to contribute much lately. As for coincidence, I have no idea if this guy is somehow related to the others or not. Just really odd.
As for politics, I'll only say that presidential candidate Bill Richardson is featuring several paragraphs from an article I wrote on his campaign website. You probably shouldn't go read it though, as it isn't apt to sooth old wounds.
Very happy holidays to you and Carolyn,
Brad & Gloria
p.s.
I probably should have sent a card.
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Joe Ribaudo
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San Miguel.......
Terry,
I have remained curious about this since it was first posted:
_________________________________________________
lazarus
Expert
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 978
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: TC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry,
I'll accept that explanation. I should have qualified the chapel as a side-note, which I did not. However, through my research, I have learned that chapels such as this played a major roll in a whole heck of a lot more than folklore. In fact, the Chapel of San Miguel (Santa Fe, New Mexico), believed to be the oldest in the United States, has asked me to research the history of the structure, with special attention toward the chapel bell.
This is a biggie, and may be hard to swallow, but it all ties in with the Stone Maps. The bells were all hand made, and therefor, each is as unique as a fingerprint. It's hard for me to think about traveling eastward on that old stretch of Buckeye Road without thinking about that bell hanging in the old chapel.
Laz
Back to top
________________________________________________________
Did you ever hear anything else about Cooper's research on this project? I assume it's not something which would be kept a secret, and have been looking for an article on the results. Did I just miss it?
The tie-in between the Stone Maps and Mission Bells seemed rather tenuous for me, but I am no expert on Spanish Missions.
Hope all is well with you.
Take care,
Joe
I have remained curious about this since it was first posted:
_________________________________________________
lazarus
Expert
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 978
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: TC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry,
I'll accept that explanation. I should have qualified the chapel as a side-note, which I did not. However, through my research, I have learned that chapels such as this played a major roll in a whole heck of a lot more than folklore. In fact, the Chapel of San Miguel (Santa Fe, New Mexico), believed to be the oldest in the United States, has asked me to research the history of the structure, with special attention toward the chapel bell.
This is a biggie, and may be hard to swallow, but it all ties in with the Stone Maps. The bells were all hand made, and therefor, each is as unique as a fingerprint. It's hard for me to think about traveling eastward on that old stretch of Buckeye Road without thinking about that bell hanging in the old chapel.
Laz
Back to top
________________________________________________________
Did you ever hear anything else about Cooper's research on this project? I assume it's not something which would be kept a secret, and have been looking for an article on the results. Did I just miss it?
The tie-in between the Stone Maps and Mission Bells seemed rather tenuous for me, but I am no expert on Spanish Missions.
Hope all is well with you.
Take care,
Joe
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
7.1. THE OLD BELL
in the San Miguel Chapel is one of the greatest objects of interest and the particular delight of Brother David. It weighs seven hundred and eighty pounds, but being four inches thick, its size is not so great as its weight would indicate. It bears the inscription “San José ruega por nosotros” (St. Joseph pray for us). There has been a great deal of discussion as to its age and history. Brother David has no doubt that it was cast in Spain in 1356, and brought to America by Nicolas Ortiz Niño Ladron de Guevara, who was with De Vargas in the reconquest
[page 101]
and became the head of the Ortiz family, and was used in the Ortiz Chapel on lower San Francisco Street until it was abandoned; and others think it has been in the San Miguel Chapel from the days
THE ANCIENT BELL OF SAN MIGUEL
of the conquest; and others that it is a more modern creation. We do not pretend to decide so delicate a problem, but insert the story as it appears in theLife of Bishop Machebeuf,by Rev. W. J. Howlett,
[page 102]
which ought to be correct, if it is not. At all events the bell looks old enough to have been used by Noah in the Ark, and of the sweetness of its tone, all visitors can judge.
‘‘
“In a little room at the base of the tower of San Miguel is the sweetest-toned bell in America, and perhaps the richest. It, too, has its history, filled with poetry, and romance of the ages of the faith.
“In 1356, so the legend runs, the Spaniards were fighting the Moors. Battle after battle was fought and lost by the Christians, until the people vowed a bell to St. Joseph as a gage of their confidence in his assistance. They brought their gold and silver plate, their rings and their bracelets, their brooches and ear-rings, and cast them into the melting-pot with the other metal. The bell was cast, and in its tone were the richness of gold and the sweetness of sacrifice. It sounded the defeat of Moslemism in Spain, and then came to ring in the birth of Christianity in Mexico, and with the Padres it found its way up the Rio Grande to rest and ring out its sweet notes over the City of the Holy Faith.
“In the old adobe church stands the bell—
From the ancient tower its notes have ceased to
swell
O'er the houses, quaint and low,
Whence it summoned long ago
Spanish conqueror, Indian slave,
All to gather ’neath this nave.
Pealed it many a bygone day
[page 103]
O'er the roofs of Santa Fé.
And before that, century long,
Had it sent its sacred song
O'er the hills and dales of distant, sunny Spain.
Six long centuries have passed
Since the ancient bell was cast,
And sounded forth its first long sweet refrain.
Strike it now and you shall hear,
Sweet and soft, and silver clear,
Such a note as thrills your heart
With its tender, magic art,
Echoing softly through the gloom
Of that ancient, storied room,
Dying softly, far away,
In the church at Santa Fé.“
in the San Miguel Chapel is one of the greatest objects of interest and the particular delight of Brother David. It weighs seven hundred and eighty pounds, but being four inches thick, its size is not so great as its weight would indicate. It bears the inscription “San José ruega por nosotros” (St. Joseph pray for us). There has been a great deal of discussion as to its age and history. Brother David has no doubt that it was cast in Spain in 1356, and brought to America by Nicolas Ortiz Niño Ladron de Guevara, who was with De Vargas in the reconquest
[page 101]
and became the head of the Ortiz family, and was used in the Ortiz Chapel on lower San Francisco Street until it was abandoned; and others think it has been in the San Miguel Chapel from the days
THE ANCIENT BELL OF SAN MIGUEL
of the conquest; and others that it is a more modern creation. We do not pretend to decide so delicate a problem, but insert the story as it appears in theLife of Bishop Machebeuf,by Rev. W. J. Howlett,
[page 102]
which ought to be correct, if it is not. At all events the bell looks old enough to have been used by Noah in the Ark, and of the sweetness of its tone, all visitors can judge.
‘‘
“In a little room at the base of the tower of San Miguel is the sweetest-toned bell in America, and perhaps the richest. It, too, has its history, filled with poetry, and romance of the ages of the faith.
“In 1356, so the legend runs, the Spaniards were fighting the Moors. Battle after battle was fought and lost by the Christians, until the people vowed a bell to St. Joseph as a gage of their confidence in his assistance. They brought their gold and silver plate, their rings and their bracelets, their brooches and ear-rings, and cast them into the melting-pot with the other metal. The bell was cast, and in its tone were the richness of gold and the sweetness of sacrifice. It sounded the defeat of Moslemism in Spain, and then came to ring in the birth of Christianity in Mexico, and with the Padres it found its way up the Rio Grande to rest and ring out its sweet notes over the City of the Holy Faith.
“In the old adobe church stands the bell—
From the ancient tower its notes have ceased to
swell
O'er the houses, quaint and low,
Whence it summoned long ago
Spanish conqueror, Indian slave,
All to gather ’neath this nave.
Pealed it many a bygone day
[page 103]
O'er the roofs of Santa Fé.
And before that, century long,
Had it sent its sacred song
O'er the hills and dales of distant, sunny Spain.
Six long centuries have passed
Since the ancient bell was cast,
And sounded forth its first long sweet refrain.
Strike it now and you shall hear,
Sweet and soft, and silver clear,
Such a note as thrills your heart
With its tender, magic art,
Echoing softly through the gloom
Of that ancient, storied room,
Dying softly, far away,
In the church at Santa Fé.“
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Ringing Bells.......
pip,
Many thanks for your response to the question I asked Terry.
I had read the information you provided back when Cooper first mentioned the request from San Miguel for him to research the history of the building and the bell.
Personally, I would suspect that no one knows the history of that subject better than the people who are living with that history.
I still see no relation between mission bells and the LDM.
Do you have anything you could add, that can't be found on the Internet?
Thanks for your reply,
Joe Ribaudo
Many thanks for your response to the question I asked Terry.
I had read the information you provided back when Cooper first mentioned the request from San Miguel for him to research the history of the building and the bell.
Personally, I would suspect that no one knows the history of that subject better than the people who are living with that history.
I still see no relation between mission bells and the LDM.
Do you have anything you could add, that can't be found on the Internet?
Thanks for your reply,
Joe Ribaudo
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
I'l Show You My Info........
So do I.
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
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- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm