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Greenhorn
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Question from new member

Post by Greenhorn »

Howdy folks, new member here. From my research, it appears that there are two very different stories regarding Snowbeard's last days. One is that he gave his friends Julia Thomas and Rinehart Petrache directions to the mine, and wished them to have it. The other is that he gave Dick Holmes directions on his deathbed (as well as the gold he had in the box under his bed). To me, it makes no sense that he would give Holmes anything, since Julia and Rinehart were his closest friends, and Holmes was at best an acquaintance whom he even caught once trying to follow him to the mine. (Indeed, Holmes was accused of stealing the box of gold from under the Dutchman's bed.) But it is evident from their later searches that Thomas, Petrache, and Holmes all had detailed information regarding the mine's location. If Holmes was lying, why would he and his son Brownie spend the rest of their lives searching?
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Re: Question from new member

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Greenhorn,

Welcome to the LDM Forum.

IMHO, you have a pretty good handle on the Holmes' story. I have always leaned heavily towards the Ely/Thomas/Petrasch account. It's a heated argument for most Dutch Hunters. You can find many interesting debates by using the search engine on this site. There is no better source on the Internet for looking up the history of the LDM.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Question from new member

Post by Greenhorn »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Greenhorn,

Welcome to the LDM Forum.

IMHO, you have a pretty good handle on the Holmes' story. I have always leaned heavily towards the Ely/Thomas/Petrasch account. It's a heated argument for most Dutch Hunters. You can find many interesting debates by using the search engine on this site. There is no better source on the Internet for looking up the history of the LDM.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
Thanks for your reply, Joe. I too put much more weight on the Sims Ely book than the Holmes Manuscript, simply because it is more believable. I cannot imagine the Dutchman giving the mine directions and box of ore to anyone other than Julia and Rinehart, who cared for him.

What bothers me is that Dick and Brownie Holmes spent the rest of their lives searching, which indicates to me that the Dutchman told Dick something. Maybe he deliberately misled Holmes by giving him false directions. Or maybe in his final minutes he became delirious and thought he was talking to Thomas and Petrasch, which would mean that Holmes deliberately allowed Walz to be deceived on his deathbed.
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Re: Question from new member

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Greenhorn wrote:
Joe Ribaudo wrote:Greenhorn,

Welcome to the LDM Forum.

IMHO, you have a pretty good handle on the Holmes' story. I have always leaned heavily towards the Ely/Thomas/Petrasch account. It's a heated argument for most Dutch Hunters. You can find many interesting debates by using the search engine on this site. There is no better source on the Internet for looking up the history of the LDM.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
Thanks for your reply, Joe. I too put much more weight on the Sims Ely book than the Holmes Manuscript, simply because it is more believable. I cannot imagine the Dutchman giving the mine directions and box of ore to anyone other than Julia and Rinehart, who cared for him.

What bothers me is that Dick and Brownie Holmes spent the rest of their lives searching, which indicates to me that the Dutchman told Dick something. Maybe he deliberately misled Holmes by giving him false directions. Or maybe in his final minutes he became delirious and thought he was talking to Thomas and Petrasch, which would mean that Holmes deliberately allowed Walz to be deceived on his deathbed.
Greenhorn,

I'm unsure that Dick Holmes devoted the rest of his life searching for the LDM. It does seem he started his son, Brownie, into becoming a Dutch Hunter, but I don't think he was as devoted to the task as many others would become.

On the other hand, I don't discount everything that Brownie stated. The Holmes' were there on the heels/skirts of Julia. IMHO, that gives them an advantage over those who came later. Time almost always thins out the real "evidence", whatever that is.

While I never actually searched for the LDM, (on my own) it was always on my mind. I did spend a great deal of time researching the published information as well as many stories that have never made it into print. Lots of lesser known opinions out there.

My own opinion on why Dick Holmes would send his son into the Superstitions.....on a lie, was that once he made up a story to explain why Waltz "gave" him the box of ore, he just couldn't bring himself to admit that he stole the dying man's gold from under his bed. What man of pride would want to admit to his son that he was a common thief?

On the other hand, I'm sure he believed that Waltz had a rich gold mine in the Supe's. Probably lots of clues were floating around right after Waltz's death. Two things that come to mind were where Julia and Rhiney started their first search from. That would be, likely, Hog Canyon and the contemporaneous newspaper article.

Interestingly enough, Brownie started his methodical search from the ridge above Hog Canyon and worked his way into the range from there.

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Question from new member

Post by Greenhorn »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:
Greenhorn wrote:
Joe Ribaudo wrote:Greenhorn,

Welcome to the LDM Forum.

IMHO, you have a pretty good handle on the Holmes' story. I have always leaned heavily towards the Ely/Thomas/Petrasch account. It's a heated argument for most Dutch Hunters. You can find many interesting debates by using the search engine on this site. There is no better source on the Internet for looking up the history of the LDM.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
Thanks for your reply, Joe. I too put much more weight on the Sims Ely book than the Holmes Manuscript, simply because it is more believable. I cannot imagine the Dutchman giving the mine directions and box of ore to anyone other than Julia and Rinehart, who cared for him.

What bothers me is that Dick and Brownie Holmes spent the rest of their lives searching, which indicates to me that the Dutchman told Dick something. Maybe he deliberately misled Holmes by giving him false directions. Or maybe in his final minutes he became delirious and thought he was talking to Thomas and Petrasch, which would mean that Holmes deliberately allowed Walz to be deceived on his deathbed.
Greenhorn,

I'm unsure that Dick Holmes devoted the rest of his life searching for the LDM. It does seem he started his son, Brownie, into becoming a Dutch Hunter, but I don't think he was as devoted to the task as many others would become.

On the other hand, I don't discount everything that Brownie stated. The Holmes' were there on the heels/skirts of Julia. IMHO, that gives them an advantage over those who came later. Time almost always thins out the real "evidence", whatever that is.

While I never actually searched for the LDM, (on my own) it was always on my mind. I did spend a great deal of time researching the published information as well as many stories that have never made it into print. Lots of lesser known opinions out there.

My own opinion on why Dick Holmes would send his son into the Superstitions.....on a lie, was that once he made up a story to explain why Waltz "gave" him the box of ore, he just couldn't bring himself to admit that he stole the dying man's gold from under his bed. What man of pride would want to admit to his son that he was a common thief?

On the other hand, I'm sure he believed that Waltz had a rich gold mine in the Supe's. Probably lots of clues were floating around right after Waltz's death. Two things that come to mind were where Julia and Rhiney started their first search from. That would be, likely, Hog Canyon and the contemporaneous newspaper article.

Interestingly enough, Brownie started his methodical search from the ridge above Hog Canyon and worked his way into the range from there.

Good luck,

Joe
That's a good point Joe. I believe Dick Holmes was not an honorable man, and the Holmes manuscript is an attempt by Brownie to sanitize his father's actions. I base this on the fact that Waltz is portrayed as a cold mass murderer (as if that justifies stealing his gold), and Julia is only mentioned in passing, when in fact she was arguably the most important person in Waltz's life.
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Re: Question from new member

Post by Oroblanco »

Sorry I am late to the dance, but want to add that I am in agreement with Greenhorn about Dick Holmes. However, as you pointed out, Holmes must have believed that Waltz had a gold mine for he spent the rest of his life searching for it, and followed by his son Brownie, and to this day by Brownie's partner Clay Wurst.

The trouble is in perception. It sounds like Julia and Reiney were the truest friends of Waltz in his last days, and yet he may well have realized that they could never find the mine, while someone he knew as a desert rat (Dick Holmes) might, if given directions. Also, Waltz had already given Julia thousands of dollars worth of gold, he may well have felt that he had helped them enough.

Bottom line - I still grant more credence to the Ely/Bark accounts, which trace to Julia and Reiney, than to the Holmes manuscript; BUT - that said I would not throw out the Holmes manuscript either, for actions speak louder than words, and Holmes certainly showed his belief by searching, while Julia gave up.

I believe that a second story got mixed in to the Waltz story, either deliberately (perhaps to fool Dick Holmes? Or by Holmes and/or Julia to mislead competition?) or innocently by people making assumptions about a second lost mine story which SEEMED similar to Waltz but which was in circulation years before Waltz died and was unrelated. Once you start mixing clues from two (or even more) different lost mines together, then try to search for it, you are very much hobbled by wrong information and assumptions.


Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: Question from new member

Post by zentull »

The Dick Holmes story? Hmmmmmm. Which version by Dick Holmes are we referencing? Where he was alone? Or with Ida? Or with a number of others depending on the varying accounts some of which were by Dick Holmes himself. Was it at Julias house or the Bakery. Holmes claimed both in his versions. This is after he followed Waltz, Rescued Waltz and was at Waltz's burial. All according to Dick Holmes own account. He also pointed out Waltz's grave to Brownie, cause he was there, remember? Nevermind he was off by a mile. This story grew and Holmes himself gave accounts of it. Brownie stuck to his story at least. I believe Brownie believed in his Dad's story. Thats about it. By 1900 it was a well known tale and yet it was carefully kept close as far as the details we are told. Why would you give public interviews about it? Find any news articles with Rhinehart as an eyewitness? Thats right he was off drunk or asleep in the hall or some other variation. The only statement Rhinehart gave concerning Holmes was that Holmes never knew Waltz and never met him. There is no mention of Holmes supposed feud with Thomas and Petrasch, no court records of the case against him, no documentation at all. I have never found a shred of evidence that would lead me to believe Holmes knew or was with Waltz when he died.

Not to mention the whole fiasco of the ticket sales to spend a moment with Waltz account. The news papers which would report any and all gossip regardless of the individual or family and all we have reported concerning Waltz is that Waltz died with a blessing on his lips for Julia. We have been down this road so many times and if there was anything to hang my hat on I would happily mention it, but there just isn't. If there is any truth in the story it is impossible to separate it from the fictional accounting that we have been given. Any information he had I believe came from Julia Thomas or more likely Albert Shaffer.
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Re: Question from new member

Post by novice »

Wayne and Joe,

I can’t find much fault with the way you guys are reading the tea leaves regarding Dick Holmes but I did see a couple of things that I was unaware of and wanted to ask where you came up with the conclusions and background.

Joe, you wrote that “Brownie started his methodical search from the ridge above Hog Canyon and worked his way into the range from there.” Where did that come from?

Wayne, you wrote, ”The only statement Rhinehart gave concerning Holmes was that Holmes never knew Waltz and never met him.” Where did that come from?

Wayne you also wrote “He [Dick Holmes] also pointed out Waltz's grave to Brownie, cause he was there, remember? Nevermind he was off by a mile.”

A few years ago, Gregory Davis shared a lot of the background on the Waltz grave marker and the various claims regarding where Waltz was buried. My take was that it is doubtful whether we really have a solid clue. (Milton Rose, George Petrasch, Brownie Holmes, the fellows who carved the stone and placed it in its location, etc). I would be very interested in your opinion regarding the true location of Waltz’s grave.

I don’t want to get into an in depth discussion as it probably deserves its own thread someday.
Just your thoughts. :)

Thanks in advance,

Garry
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Re: Question from new member

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

"Joe, you wrote that “Brownie started his methodical search from the ridge above Hog Canyon and worked his way into the range from there.” Where did that come from?"

That came from the Brownie Holmes' Manuscriipt......as I recall. At work right now, but I am 100% sure of that. I will look when I get home. If you don't hear otherwise, you can take it to the bank. Not sure of who my source was for that manuscript was, may have beek Roberts, so that's my only disclaimer.

Wayne would be your best guy for Waltz's grave site, or Greg Davis. Might be wary no matter who it came from. Once again, Roberts may have his fingers in this particular pie.

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Question from new member

Post by zentull »

Barry Storm "Thunder Gods Gold" first edition with the notes of authenticity. While Storm lost all his material later he quotes Rhinehart here. In fact I believe Storm used Rhinehart as a source until his suicide and then turned to Herman. It is one of the few direct quotes we have from Rhinehart.

Brownie showed where his Dad had shown him where Waltz was buried. I was told Dick Holmes was in error because there was another burial the same day. That rules out his attendance at the burial I suppose. Herman did not point out the grave, he simply stated that Waltz was buried next to his brother George, per Rhinehart. There was a record of where George Petrasch was buried so I believe they were able to determine with ground penetrating radar where the adult was by Petrasch.Since Rhinehart is the one person it appears was there, I figure that is as close as we can get. There was to be an exhumation of Waltz's remains, but I believe it was stopped because they had enough evidence that he was buried there and saw no other reason to go further with the process. Greg has those articles and information.

I have the articles too, just dont know where I filed it.
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Re: Question from new member

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Garry,

"Joe, you wrote that “Brownie started his methodical search from the ridge above Hog Canyon and worked his way into the range from there.” Where did that come from?"

That came from the Brownie Holmes' Manuscriipt......as I recall. At work right now, but I am 100% sure of that. I will look when I get home. If you don't hear otherwise, you can take it to the bank. Not sure of who my source was for that manuscript was, may have beek Roberts, so that's my only disclaimer.

Wayne would be your best guy for Waltz's grave site, or Greg Davis. Might be wary no matter who it came from. Once again, Roberts may have his fingers in this particular pie.

Good luck,

Joe
Garry,

Page 30 of the Holmes' Manuscript reads:

"I decided to make a more systematic search. I there (then?) began a renewed search, by starting out at Superstition Mountain, the main mountain of the range, and gradually working north and east, thoroughly examining every canyon as I went........".

The passage can also be found on page 118 of Thomas Glover's book "Part 2".

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Question from new member

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Did you not like my reply?

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Question from new member

Post by novice »

Joe,

Yes, I did like your reply. I always like an original reference. :D

I was misinterpreting your words and jumping to conclusions (Bad Move). The reference you provided allowed me to get back on the same page.
"Joe, you wrote that “Brownie started his methodical search from the ridge above Hog Canyon and worked his way into the range from there.” Where did that come from?"
I thought you were indicating that Brownie specifically referred to Hog Canyon somewhere.

I was also reading the words “Brownie started his methodical search” as meaning that Brownie started his “Initial search”.

I now see it wasn’t Brownie’s first search but a later renewed search and the use of Hog Canyon was simply tying Brownie’s search to Jim Bark’s story of running into Julia and Rhinehart near Hog Canyon.

Garry
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Re: Question from new member

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Over the years, I've found that many, many of the LDM stories are related. It's like a spider web. Many are connected by a thread or two.

The question for me, has always been, why did Brownie start so far away from his primary search area? I believe that was around Indian Spring. We know it was too far from the cut trees that he believed Waltz used in sealing the mine.

Good luck,

Joe
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