Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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Ozarker
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Ozarker »

Just a heads up - I just revisited the book I linked to above to make sure the link was working, and it appears that I've reached some sort of limit and can no longer view the pages.

So, take your time while you're there, if you're interested - otherwise you'll need to buy or borrow the book!

Larry
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Cubfan64 »

Larry - I think with those Google previews, it's random which pages will actually be shown each time you visit. My preview left off all the pages after 80. This may be one of those cases where getting a copy from the library and scanning the photos may be worthwhile.

If you want, I'll give it a shot.

Paul
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Somehiker wrote:Beth:
Although I personally have no doubt of the professional knowledge or the dedication of those who were involved in the examination of the stones provided by the Flagg Foundation/AMMM,which by the way,has been closed as of last April 30 th. (http://www.azminfun.com/),we should remember that DA is a corporate entity which exists in order to make money for it's own shareholders.By all accounts,the company provides a fair and valuable service to both archaeology and construction companies,as well as local and state agencies tasked with the preservation of historic sites.
I doubt that they feel the same spirit of adventure as we treasure hunters,however.
In fact,I don't believe that they have much regard for us at all.
Does anyone here honestly believe that any of them,OR Dr.Polzer was about to exclaim....
"By golly,I think these might be maps leading to buried treasure!!!"
Think about it.

Regards:Wayne
Wayne,

Since I don't know any of the DAI people personally, I can't ascribe any motives for anything they may have or have not said. I can say that when I first read the article, I saw a bias from the very beginning.

While it is true that Archaeologists don't have much love for Treasure Hunters, I don't think that an anti-thunting bias had much to do with their conclusions. On the other hand, Father Polzer SJ is on the opposite end of the spectrum. As a friend once told me, Polzer's main role in everything he did was to get Eusebbio Francisco Kino SJ Cannonized. Anything that would have thrown the Jesuits of Pimeria Alta into ANY kind of bad light (like illegal mining or hoarding of wealth) would have made that all the more difficult. That is the best reason I can find for why Father Polzer SJ was such an outspoken opponent of anything to do with Jesuit Wealth.


Mike
alan m
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Beth
Yes I did mean to say that trace analysis IS THE ONLY WAY to determine the age of the stone tablets.
Please remember that we are talking about a CRYPTIC SYSTEM.
These tablets were never intended for just anyone to be able to read or decipher.
This means that any comparison with estabilished cultural edifices is a stretch at best.
I will concede that if we are analyzing blocks from a cathedral or some other normal stone work such as grinding stones then you would be correct in your statement.
The person or persons who carved these tablets did not want thier message to be easily interpreted, as such, there is no estabilished criteria for any of the conclusions presented by DA.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

I will say that one of the things I was looking for with the microscope were small slivers of metal. I didn't find any in any of the places I looked.


Some more goodies:

Those people at the museum who think the stones are hoaxes don't really know that much about them.

Here is an email I got from Ray Grant some time ago which seemed to match the sentiment of others there I had corresponded with. Ray actually showed more interest than the others. Most only referenced the DAI examination.
Mike,

I have never worried about what they really were, and I was happy to use them for publicity. I was always happy to let people believe what they would and I do think they are interesting.

The science from DAI seems to indicate that they are relatively recent. Many people at the Museum suspected them before DAI, because of the lack of a clear picture of where they really came from and their use to raise funds, etc.

What I always wondered about was why go to so much trouble if they are a hoax, it is much easier to make a paper map. I have no knowledge of the FBI story, is written up any place?

Ray
Ray also asked a question that I hadn't before. If you are going to make a hoax, then get some old period parchment, and manufacture some period ink (not too difficult).

ike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

In continuation;
We are tlking about trying to pin down a date from 1847 to 1949 for a set of stone tablets which we are not sure where they originated or what they were intended to convey.
How can any type of comparison be made that could be considered definative?
Did an Indian carve them or a Mulatto, perhaps a Creole.
The fact is that any type of language or grammatic comparison is just a shot in the dark and is a guess at best.
Pottery sherds can be dated by comparring thier decorative patterns, the type and color of the glaze. but this is doable only because we have a cultural base in which to compair them to, there is no such base for the stone tablets.
The spelling errors seem obvious to us today, but spelling has never been one of the seven great arts or sciences, and the errors could be intentional.
I posted a critique of the arguments presented by Polzer some time ago and will perhaps post them again.
As a summary every argument presented by Polzer can be countered by contrary evidence.
Alan
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Alan,

"As a summary every argument presented by Polzer can be countered by contrary evidence."

I think most of the people posting here would appreciate seeing that "contrary evidence".

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by djui5 »

I heard they were brought down by Moses with the 10 commandments :lol: :lol:
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Randy:
Now you mention it.....
didn't that Moses fella hang out with a bunch of stone cutters?
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<slightly off topic comment>

Post by Oroblanco »

djui5 wrote:I heard they were brought down by Moses with the 10 commandments :lol: :lol:

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Last year I had in mind to ask you what you might charge for a ride to a particular spot, in your Jeep - but after seeing some photos of you and what you do with your Jeep, decided to figure out another way there. 8O :mrgreen:

Ditto to the comment of Joe, yes I would like to see the contrary evidence. My problem with casting out Fr Polzer's opinion is that I see nothing on the Peralta stones that is specifically Jesuit, which might be grounds for recusing him from any 'official' opinion as an historical expert. Were there an "IHS" it might be a different story, but otherwise I see no reason why Polzer would feel compelled to make a false opinion (published) to protect his Order when there is nothing on the stones to directly link to his Order. So please do, share that contrary evidence, I would sure appreciate it. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Cubfan64 »

Evidence when it comes to the Stone Maps as well as many things associated with the LDM more often than not comes down to the same thing....

"Evidence is in the eyes of the beholder." What one person believes is strong evidence of something another person views as skewed, etc... I'm not saying the discussions aren't interesting to have, but they're almost always unproductive in convincing anyone of anything.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Paul when you are right, you're right.

In defense of our debate/discussion, I think that a majority of us who do discuss the topic, are not 'locked' in our views. The door is still open a crack, so to speak, so that in re-examining the existing evidence (and documents) and the chance for new evidence such as Garry's tireless efforts have turned up, we can try to arrive at intelligent conclusions. Even if those conclusions are the opposite of what we believed before. Just my opinion but I think that the folks who have become 'locked' in their views (pro or con) don't bother to debate the evidence.

Speaking for myself only, I am about 90% convinced the stones are modern and don't lead to any treasures, though it may well lead to old played out mines and prospect pits as Joe has proposed. I put almost all publicly available treasure maps in that same category, just based on the fact that they haven't led anyone else to find lost mines with rare exceptions.

I look forward to examining Alan's contrary evidence to Father Polzer's conclusions on the Peralta stones. Will it be enough to impeach Polzer as an expert witness? Our ersatz court will decide! :D

I am wasting a rather gorgeous day here, and should be working so must close - I look forward to your replies.
Roy
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alan m
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello to all
I am having some trouble downsizing my photos in order to post them here, but I will continue and work out the "Bugs" later.
First I want to make it clear that this post is NOT an attack on Charles W. Polzer or his credentials, may he rest in peace.
I have a photo of a unique sandstone outcroping that matches the color of the two main tablets.
This formation of sandstone is layered, obviously sedimentary, but the layers are a close match to the thickness of the tablets. Being sedementary thier surfaces would, and are, remarkably flat thus giving the apperance of a milled surface.
The crosses are not only of 20th cenury design and style, I have two photos to prove this, one is of a headstone dated 1856 which clearly shows a cross just like the one the "Priest" is holding.
The other photo is of a cross which was excavated at Guevavi and dates to the late 1600's. It is, or was on display in the museum at Tumacacori.
I can post this photo of a scene from the celibration of Holy Week in Seville Spain.
The pointy hats are unmistakable. The statement of the figure being a Witch is misleading.
Polzer's statement about the Sanserif font in not relavant because this font is so close to simple block lettering that a specific determination cannot be made.
Polzer's objection to the use of the title DON is a valid statement But consider this,
if the use of the word DON was as a tribute to a respected person on or at his gravesite, then its use would be appropriate and proper.
I will attemp to get the other photos posted, if anyone cant wait then post your E-Mail Address and I will soot them off to you.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

OK
Here are the other photos.
This is submitted as evidence contrary to Polzers position, I realize that it is not irrefutable but it is alternative.
Best
Alan
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Re: <slightly off topic comment>

Post by djui5 »

Oroblanco wrote:
Last year I had in mind to ask you what you might charge for a ride to a particular spot, in your Jeep - but after seeing some photos of you and what you do with your Jeep, decided to figure out another way there. 8O :mrgreen:

Oroblanco
:lol: :lol:

Smart idea. Ask Greg about the time I almost gave him a heart attack up by Wickenburg. We were still in 2wd. 8O
Randy Wright
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Ozarker
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Ozarker »

Hello All:

This has probably been covered elsewhere, but I'm hoping someone who has studied Polzer's comments in detail has the answer handy, or can at least point me in the right direction.

In his analysis, Polzer appeared to make a distinction between the crosses on the witch/priest stone (which he stated were of 20th century design), and the cross on the back of the upper trail map (which he stated was of 19th century design, with carryovers into the 20th century). At first glance this seems like a contradiction, but I suspect there is something that spurred Polzer to make the distinction? Is it that the large cross on back of the trail map has the shorter arms? (Other than that, I can't tell much difference between the crosses that couldn't be explained as simply the artists working within the space they had available - or perhaps an indication of separate artists?).

Also, has anyone seen the full report (or letter?) from Polzer, or is the chapter in Sikorsky what everyone has been working from? I know this question has been asked before, but I couldn't find whether the report had ever been fully identified or produced.

Thanks in advance.

Larry
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

the stone for those masks are found all over northern arizona...
volcanic ash...the color varies dependent on where you find it.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Lots in the Pacific Northwest,especially around Mount St. Helens.Be nifty to make a side trip,just to see what the rocks of the Superstitions looked like when they were fresh outa the oven.....SH.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello Larry
It would seem that Polzer was confused, neither statement; about 19th or 20th century is completely accurate.
Your observations of the crosses is correct, the smaller ones were sized to fit.
The whole argument about style is hardly appropriate when dealing with simple block type carvings which are lacking anything that could be construed as a style.
Polzers focus was on discrediting anyone who tried to link the Jesuits with treasure.
Robert sikorsky's book "Quest for the Dutchmans Gold" has the most complete reprint that I have seen, but Tom Kollenborn's book "Superstition Mountain a ride through time" also has some of Polzers writings and agin they are adamantly "anti- treasure"
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello Paul and Roy
The evidence I am presenting is not intended to change anyones opinion
I am not that naive :?
What it is intended to do is to show you that there is evidence which can be logically interpreted as supporting a contrary opinion as to Polzers position.
You don't have to agree with the conclusion but can you really say that you do not see the possibility or the point that I am trying to make?
Best
Alan
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Alan, thank you for posting the evidence, and I can see your point. I can't say that I agree on the style issue, and would want to see a matching Spanish or Mexican or Jesuit (if the Jesuits are to be linked with the stones) inscription. I could not find anything close, which does not mean that it doesn't exist.

I think Polzer's opinions ought not be dismissed on the grounds of his being a Jesuit, even though it appears that his main purpose was to beatify Kino, simply because there are no marks or writing on the stone maps which are undeniably Jesuit and only Jesuit. Catholic yes, but not specifically Jesuit. On another forum I floated the possibility that it was Franciscan linked, or intended to be by the creator, and many treasure hunters ignore the activities of the Franciscans as if they were not doing any mining or amassing fortunes for the church. I think it a mistake to rule them out, including for the Peralta stones.

What does surprise me is that no one has proposed that the white sheet (cloth) map which appeared to be a duplicate to the stone maps, may not have been the original map itself, which would make much more sense as a treasure map being made of cloth rather than heavy, bulky and brittle stone. I could sooner accept a cloth map than any stone map, yet no one has proposed this idea. Since I have never even seen a photo of the cloth map referred to I can't venture even a guess as to whether it might be genuine or was just a tracing etc, but the material of construction is a more logical material on that basis alone.

As a side note or rather a request, if anyone has a photo of the cloth map duplicate, I would very much appreciate if you would post it. Thank you in advance, in any case - and thank you again Alan.

Roy
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Cubfan64 »

alan m wrote:Hello Paul and Roy
The evidence I am presenting is not intended to change anyones opinion
I am not that naive :?
What it is intended to do is to show you that there is evidence which can be logically interpreted as supporting a contrary opinion as to Polzers position.
You don't have to agree with the conclusion but can you really say that you do not see the possibility or the point that I am trying to make?
Best
Alan
Alan,

I may not have been very clear in my comments earlier about evidence.

As far as me personally, I've been called a "fence-sitter" by numerous people when it comes to many different aspects of the Lost Dutchman Mine and the Superstitions. I can't say that perception is inaccurate - at least on face value. The truth is, I've always considered myself to be open to just about every viewpoint on every topic - I don't feel that's a negative, because it allows me to listen to all options and then make my decision. The problem for me is that I don't live in the Superstitions area, so many of the things that people could point to as evidence, I don't have the luxury of physically seeing.

I'm rambling quite a bit now, but suffice to say I wasn't implying that what you had to share as evidence Alan, was worthless, but rather that there are many folks who have already made up their minds about certain things and unless it's evidence that backs up their belief, it holds very little water.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello Paul
I agree with you completely.
My opinion as to this whole matter is this;
What was true yesterday is not always true today, things change.
New evidence should be regarded and considered instead of being rejected outright beacuse it does not conform to the estabilished viewpoint.
The amazing thing here is that those who are convinced of the tablets nefarious existance seem to scream the loudest.
If I thought that they were a hoax, you would not here anymore about it from me. what would be the point :wink:
Perhaps someday when the climate is a little cooler, I may disclose the evidence which changed my opinion as to the tablets validity.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello Roy
I see your point and raise you teo 8)
If you get a chance, check out the style of the crosses on the maps drawn by Juan Nentvige in 1762 8O
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Alan wrote
The amazing thing here is that those who are convinced of the tablets nefarious existance seem to scream the loudest.
Why is it that if someone raises objections to the tablets authenticity, this is perceived as "screaming the loudest"? To anyone who desires us to believe in that authenticity, persuade us with evidence, expert opinions etc. For some reason, some folks take it as some kind of personal attack if someone simply remains unconvinced that the tablets are the genuine article, which is hardly fair. I for one have no intentions of preventing anyone from using the stone maps to search for treasures, however am far from convinced that they are genuine - never any offense intended for anyone.

You have the stage, and yes I have looked at Nentvig's crosses which are interesting (or rather I should say that I saw photos of it) so now compare his lettering <Rudo Ensayo is a good example> with the lettering style on those Peralta stone tablets Alan, and see if it looks similar to you.
Roy
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