The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Wasp
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Joe,

What Dr. Glover did in his research and testing is nothing short of remarkable. Just the fact he was able to get 4-5 dutch hunters to get together and give up their ore for an independant analysis is amazing. I don't fault him a bit for his work or how he obtained the results he was able to certify. It is merely from my own personal perspective that I wish the testing had a different course and focus. He accomplished what few if any could have done and for that he has to be applauded. He gave everyone a much better picture and understanding of the dutchman ore and the difficult process involved in analyzing ore and coming to any definite conclusion. Dr. Glover was working with all the information that was known to him at that time.

Cubfan64,

You have an amazing grasp of the complex problems involved with ore analization. Ore analysis and assay testing are two completely different things. As you pointed out, the size of the sample being analized is a critically important factor. When you take a small item such as the matchbox, and a few small sample specimine pieces of gold in quartz, you get a good picture of what is present in front of you, but you do not get the whole picture of the ore deposit in total. Dr. Glover's testing did do a comprehensive spectrum analysis of the gold present, and all the elements found with that gold imbedded in the quartz. That is a huge step forward and allows someone to compare those found elements. But every ore deposit and gold/quartz formation is not uniform or equally deposited throughout the specific deposit. The genetic makeup of the vein can change as you move across the width of the quartz. without having a representative sample of the gold from throughout the entire deposit, and a sample of the contact points and host rock, you may very well be looking at less than 25% of the minerology and makeup of the deposit.

Almost all quartz vein gold deposits are loaded with the gold and other metallic minerals on one side of the vein, usually close to the contact point where the quartz meets the host country rock. As you move away from the loaded side, toward the opposite side of the quartz vein, the quartz and metallic minerals change considerably and start to disapate. Often, one side of the vein holds all the gold and metals and the other side is completely barren quartz. This can be true in a quartz vein 24" wide or 2" wide.

The ore analysis and comparison done over 40 years ago had over 7 pounds of sample material. That was precious little and in it's own right, should have been more, but that was all that could have been spared, as 40 years ago, all the testing was destructive.

For all the testing and assay's of ores that have been done over the years, no one today can definitively say where the Lost Dutchman mine is or where Jacob Waltz got the ore that was under his bed when he died. While some may speculate the location of that mine, myself included, I cannot say with certainty where that mine is.
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wasp,

Maybe what we should be trying to get is some of the ore from the newly discovered vein in the Mammoth Mine. I understand that it's been said that Ron believes the mine is, or was, the LDM. Must be some pretty rich ore.

I agree with your wishes for how the Glover testing was done. In truth, it reminds me, somewhat, of the examination that was done on the Stone Maps. I wish the archaeologist's had been given more time with the stones. They were restricted in their research by time, and Dr. Glover was restricted in his research by volume of material and the type of testing that could be done.

As usual, we are all left wondering.......what if?

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wasp,

"While some may speculate the location of that mine, myself included, I cannot say with certainty where that mine is."

As you know, I am one of those who have speculated where the LDM is. Never having searched for it, that may put me at a disadvantage, but I believe the LDM is what is being called the Silver Chief today. Without ore, it still has a great deal of "evidence" that fits. That's no guarantee, but it's a start. Jesse Feldman and David Leach have also stated their belief that it's the LDM. My guess is that Jack SanFelice also believes it, although I don't think he has voiced that.

Perhaps someone who helped clean out that mine in the late 90's, will read this and send us an anaymous sample that can be tested. On the other hand, maybe it's best that we never know.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

thank you mr wasp...
sediments, granite, and polymetalic.

why do i feel like i could drive right to that location?
so... is the joke the dutchman is at the dons camp? maybe a bit south of the old board house? red spots?
right under barks nose.
lol...now that would be a giggle.
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Oroblanco »

Tag post, please ignore, but will add this - very interesting thread! Finally someone has addressed the most important evidence and only key evidence which could prove absolutely whether someone has found the mine of Jacob Waltz - the ORE! Thank you!
:D :D :D
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

"send us an anaymous sample" 8O

Then again, maybe they will send us an anonymous sample. :oops:

Hello Roy,

Welcome back.

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by djui5 »

Hey Roy!!
Randy Wright
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wasp,

Would it be possible to post pages 2 & 3 of the LDM Ore, Assay Report?

In any case, thanks again.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Joe R.

Page 1 of the analysis dealt with identifying and certifying the precise genetic makeup of the ore sample.
Pages 2 and 3 deal with that ore sample analysis being identified for it's exact type of deposit, and compared to another known ore sample, and the findings of those two ores being compared to each other.

Even though this ore analysis was done over 40 years ago, and while two of the principals in that analysis have passed on, two are still alive today and one of them is actively involved in the process of searching and verifying known sites and their relationship to this ore analysis. Because of that fact, pages 2 and 3 cannot be posted. The ore analysis was a private arrangement and was never used, or ever intended to be used, to claim or patent any mine, it was done purely for the information of the individual persons who were involved.

While page 1 of the analysis is quite precise and specific, there are only 2 or 3 things on that page that are of real value to know. While many dutch enthusiasts believe the most important point of the LDM geology is decoding it's 'fingerprint", or genetic makeup, the most imortant point is the exact identification of the type of deposit the gold was formed as. Knowing the "fingerprint" is excellent information but without the knowledge of the exact type of deposit that formed that "fingerprint", you will be endlessly engaged in a spitting contest over minor elements that vary from one sample to the next, even samples taken from the exact same mine. Dr. Glover learned this to late in his ore analysis.
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wasp,

Thank you for your reply.

Whenever someone comes along with some "new", to me, information,
I often want "the rest of the story". I understand that can't always be told, but figure there's no harm in asking.

Hopefully you will continue to post, telling us more of the history for the LDM ore. It's a subject that has generated a great deal of speculation.

I doubt there is anyone here that would not love to hear more of what you can, comfortably, tell us.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Oroblanco »

A big Dakota HOWDY to Randy, Joe, Paul and HOLA amigos to everyone!

I notice that a part of the minerals listed in the description has been blacked out - to help prevent someone else from locating the mine I suppose, but the minerals listed are enough to go pretty far in helping to ID any suspect ore. The page (missing) which has the exact breakdown of the amounts of gold and silver present are not too important, as these amounts vary considerably within ANY ore body. Thank you for posting it.
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Ore Analysis

Post by Roger »

Wasp,

Not being very educated on mining/geology and unable to find anything on the internet, had one question on the ore analysis report you shared with us. The very first line on the report lists the following:

Ep-Q Alunite Au. / Au - Ag - Te.

Can understand the alunite, gold, silver, and tellurim symbols, but what is "Ep-Q"? The only thing I can come up with is "epithermal quartz", but don't think that is right.

Appreciate some input on this.

Roger
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Oroblanco,

You are assuming the report is an assay instead of an analysis. In a previous post it was stated the report is an analysis. The underground reserves and overall richness of the ore was not the focus of the analysis.

You are assuming a blacked out word is to prevent someone else from finding the mine.
In a previous post the reason for any blackout spaces was given. To prevent someone else from finding the mine, you would first have to assume the exact location of the mine is known to the persons who paid for the analysis.

You are assuming you know what is on pages 2 and 3. Had the report been an assay, you may have been correct.

Roger,

Yes, Ep-Q is a chemists abbreviation for Epithermal Quartz.
Epithermal quartz almost always forms while associated with hot water at shallow depths. Ground water seeps down and comes into contact with a magma intrusion and is superheated. The quartz and mineral elements form together in this environment. Epithermal quartz generally can form at some distance from the magma source and can form extremely rich ore deposits at a very shallow depth which often are either buried deeper, or exposed by subsequent erosion.
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by djui5 »

Wasp wrote: Epithermal quartz almost always forms while associated with hot water at shallow depths.
It is also believed that Epithermal Quartz deposits almost always are associated with some form of a Caldera. The Quartz forms in the "bowl" left by the collapse of a Volcanic vent, which created the Caldera. Knowing the make-up of the Superstition range this is most likely the case with this ore also.
Randy Wright
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wasp,

Since the document references the Tortilla Caldera, it would appear that whoever presented the ore for analysis, offered that caldera as the location the sample(s) came from. While still a huge area, it does narrow the search somewhat. I believe the caldera also includes at least one (known) hot spring.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Jesse J. Feldman »

I have two issues with this report, so far.
1. This analysis says the ore came from the Tortilla Caldera. How did they come to that conclusion? Most of the Superstitions have the same geology, all created the same way during the same geologic period. As some of the experts suggest, there are three calderas in the greater western Superstitions, if I remember correctly. But the calderas are so similar that (I believe) you can not pick one over another. Were the people who tested the ore so familiar with the Superstitions or have extra info that they could make such a conclusion? Was this conclusion really their job?
2. If the ore is Epithermal (Ep-Q - I will take your word for it because I do not know all these abreviations) why does the report later show the crystallization at 300c? This temperature is at the top of the Mesothermal range, far from being Epithermal. The ore is Mesothermal, as it has been documented many times and as I believe right now. If it is not, then all of us need to know for sure.

Jesse
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Jesse J. Feldman,

If you read back through the post containing the report, you will see it is not represented as any specific mine, or claim to be the Lost Dutchman mine or making any other claim of locations said to be connected with the Lost Dutchman mine. It was an analysis done over 40 years ago of a private ore sample to try and determine the limits of that sample and if it was in any way similar to ore which is alleged to have come from Jacob Waltz, through Dick Holmes and into the possession of others who later purchased their own pieces of that ore. That ore, and the type of deposit it represents, could be matched with no other known mine of it's time.

Thats it. Nothing more, nothing less. The context it was posted had to do only with the statements made on page 275 of Dr. Glover's book, The Golden Dream. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to read more into it, or interpret it as saying something else or assume things about it that it is not, I have no answers for you because you are turning the report into something it is not and I cannot comment on your ideas, beliefs and assumptions.

Yes, there is a lot more involved with that ore sample and it's background, but that doesn't change what I just stated above about the sample, the report or what it was intended to be or represent.

The crystalization on the report does not speak to the Ep-Q Alunite Au-Ag-Te part of the report. There is no known quartz, epithermal or mesothermal from anywhere in Arizona that has actually crystallized at 300 - 300.2 C. This temperature is higher than both epithermal or mesothermal quartz forms. Much higher than epithermal and while at the highest end of the mesothermal scale, still higher than any known mesothermal deposit within Arizona.

The reports reference to the Tortilla caldera also involves a lot more than what is found on page 1 of the report.

The Tortilla caldera is the youngest of 4 calderas within the Superstition mountain range. The Superstition caldera being the oldest, collapsed and the Tortilla caldera rose and fell taking over a third of the NE part of the older Superstition caldera with it, altering the geology of the older portion of the Superstition caldera and mixing it with the geology of the newer Tortilla caldera. The other two known calderas in the region, the Doggie Springs and the Black Mesa calderas do not appear to have significantly affected the geology of the Tortilla caldera.

No one is saying the report proves or disproves anything else or anyone else's beliefs or findings. Or makes any claim beyond what the report was intended to be. The report is not about where someone else believes the LDM to be or if someone else believes quartz is epithermal or mesothermal. It's not about that.
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The Tortilla Cauldron Complex

Post by Roger »

The picture below shows the Tortilla Caldera in a pink color on the upper right of the three circles on the map. Note that Tortilla Caldera is much younger than the Superstition Cauldron as Wasp noted in his posting. This should give some perspective of the areas involved.

Roger
Map Showing Tortilla Caldera in the Superstitions
Map Showing Tortilla Caldera in the Superstitions
Picture 2.png (89.74 KiB) Viewed 18811 times
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Oroblanco »

Wasp wrote
Oroblanco,

You are assuming the report is an assay instead of an analysis. In a previous post it was stated the report is an analysis. The underground reserves and overall richness of the ore was not the focus of the analysis.

You are assuming a blacked out word is to prevent someone else from finding the mine.
In a previous post the reason for any blackout spaces was given. To prevent someone else from finding the mine, you would first have to assume the exact location of the mine is known to the persons who paid for the analysis.

You are assuming you know what is on pages 2 and 3. Had the report been an assay, you may have been correct.
My mistake. I beg to differ however as to the idea of preventing someone else from finding the mine by an indicator mineral, for one may have ore specimens from a mine one does not know the location of, and still not want anyone else to find it FIRST. If this is purported to be the Lost Dutchman, it would be safe to assume the person(s) having the analysis done did not know the precise location, noticed what they saw as an indicator mineral and wished that detail to be kept from public consumption.

However isn't this just a sort of "cover page" with generic descriptions of common gold ores? In this case, it was un-necessary to black out any mineral or descriptive term that might be seen as some kind of clue or indicator, since it is generic.

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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by novice »

Wasp,
You wrote:
“The following report is from an analysis done over 40 years ago on some of the exact same ore Dr. Glover EDS tested at the University of Nevada …………. The resulting analysis of the testing done over 40 years agoconcludes the ore tested can be matched to no other known ore deposit anywhere in Arizona.

The ore tested over 40 years ago was a sample of over 7 pounds including matrix and host rock.”
My understanding is that your report represents ore that the Holmes family retained. It seems a pretty straightforward assumption but I always get in trouble with my assumptions. Dr. Glover tested several different ores, Holmes, Goldfield, Vulture, Kochera, Camp, etc. Do you indeed mean that this report reresents ore from the Holmes family that was tested before 1969?

Thanks,

Garry
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wasp,

When you say "exact same ore", can we assume that you mean from the same source, as opposed to it being the same pieces of ore? That's probably a really dumb question but, as I have said many times, I don't know s#!t about rocks. :?

Thank you,

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Novice,

No, the 7 pound sample was not ore retained by the Holmes family. It was a 7 pound sample of ore that was analized and compared to the ore that came from beneath Waltz's deathbed, taken by Dick Holmes, sold to the Goldman brothers, who kept some of that ore themselves and sold pieces of it to others ( James Douglas , Emil Ganz, others ......... )
The ore sample the 7 pounds was compared to, did come technically from the Holmes family because Dick Holmes had possession of this ore for a short time before he sold it to the Goldman's.
The 7 pound sample did not originate from beneath Waltz's deathbed. The sample it was compared to 40 years ago, did come from under Waltz's bed.


Joe,

Yes, some of the ore Dr. Glover used in his comparison, came from the same source of that 7 pounds. The 7 pound sample was destroyed in destructive tests over 40 years ago. Dr. Glover's comparison tests did not destroy any of the ores he tested and there is still ore left today from the same source that produced the 7 pound sample.
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Ozarker »

Wasp:

This is my understanding of the issues you have brought to the thread, and I hope you can clear up anything that I have wrong.

Dick Holmes sold most of the Dutchman’s deathbed ore to Goldman & Co. This ore was later sold by the Goldman to other Phoenix families, at least one of whom had their own assay test conducted on the ore they had purchased, for their own private purposes.

Decades later (about 40 years ago or more?), a deposit was discovered by a person(s) that wish to remain unidentified. That deposit stood a pretty fair chance of being related to the Dutchman ore, but nobody knew for sure.

Seven pounds of ore from the newly discovered deposit was subjected to a destructive assay test in order to determine its composition, and more importantly, to determine the type of deposit it was associated with.

Somehow, arrangements were made with the family that had the assay test conducted on their Waltz deathbed ore obtained from the Goldmans, in a collaborative effort to determine if the newly discovered deposit was similar to their ore.

The original assay test conducted on the ore purchased from Goldmans was probably insufficient in terms of the more modern testing available “40 years ago”, so the original assay results had to be interpreted, mainly to put it in terms that would allow a meaningful comparison to the newly discovered deposit. This “update” was not another assay test, but instead mainly involved trying to categorize and/or specify the type of deposit the deathbed ore most likely came from (based on what was contained in the original assay report).

To categorize the type of deposits the two different samples came from, a database was consulted that had that type of information available for every known gold deposit in Arizona.

Only the principals involved know whether the comparison was favorable, or if it indicated that the ore came from different sources. This is what is contained in the remainder of the report that you posted.

I have several more questions, but most depend on whether I’m understanding the above correctly. Any help you can provide is appreciated.

Ozarker
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Ozarker,

The thread is drifting away from the original post by Novice, and the "issues" concerning the ore analysis, were posted ONLY to address specific comments made concerning the Brownie Holmes affadavit and what Dr. Glover wrote on page 275 of his book, Golden Dream, about two other affadavits that appear in Helen Corbin's book, Curse of the Dutchman's Gold on pages 231-234.

Any "issues" beyond that are out of context and going down a different road from Novice's original post. You have a fair general understanding of what has been previously posted. The details it would take to answer and explain all your questions would take several pages and would take us even farther away from the original post by Novice.

The original assay report (Porterie-Holmes-Goldman), and later attempts to assay and analize Waltz ore, or other similar ore samples , were privately arranged and not intended to lay claim to any specific mine or site, or claim to be "dutchman ore" or from the, "Lost Dutchman Mine."

Dr. Glover did however undertake his ore analysis with the intention of publishing the results in his book and possibly making some public conclusion. Everyone should make this distinction between the analysis done 40 years ago and Dr. Glover's more recent analysis and their purpose and intent. Dr. Glover requested specific samples from several individuals for his ore testing. No one asked Dr. Glover to test their ore samples for them. The individuals who freely complied with Dr. Glover's request and donated ore samples, are still to this day confused about the actual results and conclusion of those tests. A detailed report was not provided for these individuals and the conclusions offered were confusing and in some cases self conflicting.
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Oroblanco »

Wasp, do you have any photos of that ore which made up the 7 pound sample, which you could post? Thank you in advance,
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