The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

While I was rather late coming to the facts of who owned the LDM "artifacts", since then, I have heard that many Dutch Hunters know exactly who has them. Since the knowledge is widespread, one wonders why it is such an out in the open secret. On the other hand, I would not be the first person to publicize that information.

If we assume the affidavit is a true statement of facts, what does that tell us? The best thing to do, is read the affidavit in Helen Corbin's book, and then read what Dr. Glover has to say on pages, 274 & 275 of "......Part 1: The Golden Dream". Something is amiss. Having said that, I want to make one thing clear. I believe Brownie Holmes, the businessman, Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn have all acted in good faith.

I hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Quote:
"If we assume the affidavit is a true statement of facts, what does that tell us? The best thing to do, is read the affidavit in Helen Corbin's book, and then read what Dr. Glover has to say on pages, 274 & 275 of "......Part 1: The Golden Dream". Something is amiss."

In the 1920's, 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's, the geology department at the University of Arizona in Tucson was known simply as the, University of Arizona Department of Geology. The Geology department included as one of it's sub departments, the mines and minerology and mineral resources branch. There were some 7 or 8 seperate branches of geological study under the U of A Geology department.

Sometime in the 1970's the U of A at Tucson reorganized their geology department and renamed it the, University of Arizona Geosciences department. There are still some 7 or 8 sub departments of geology at the U of A, the minerology and mineral resources department is just one of them.

Because of the extreme amount of mining done in Arizona, the old Geology department, as well as the newly renamed Geosciences department, focus their studies on structural geology and deposit types and accumulate an enormous collection of ore samples from mines and deposits all over Arizona, focusing on Cu-Mo-Au, epithermal Au-Ag, and iron oxide Cu-Au deposits within Arizona. These deposits make up almost all copper and gold bearing deposits known within Arizona dating back to the 1850's.

Add to the list, Emil Ganz, as having been known to posess gold ore made into jewelry that originated from Waltz to Holmes to the Goldman's. There is yet at least one other Phoenix family that was said to have purchased some of that ore from the Goldman's that I know of. Many stories have been told and retold over the years concerning that gold ore the Holmes, Goldman's, Porterie, Hirschfeld, Douglas and others came to own. These were private arrangements that only those individuals who were directly involved could give the exact details and history. The stories we read today are all second hand at best and in some cases, fourth or fifth hand retellings of the events.

As Greg Davis stated earlier, Brownie Holmes, in his early days, was extremely sharp. However near the end of his life, the late 1970's, Brownie's memory of some accounts wavered and became hazy, not unlike most in their 80's who sometimes confuse names, faces and events. The tapes of Brownie made by Greg and Tom in the late 70's contain some obvious errors Brownie made concerning people, places, dates that Brownie well knew, but he just could not recall them clearly at the time of the interview. In some of the tapes Brownie has to stop and think and even says on several occasions he cannot recall that name, or date in time, etc. but makes an effort to give an answer anyway.
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by novice »

Joe,

The boundary and scope of my focus is much narrower. There is a lot of well worn ground out there that has been beat to a pulp and I don’t want to go there.

My present questions are much more mundane (see below)

I have only seen one full photo of the match box. (Helen Corbin’s Bible)

I have tried to find some examples of match boxes similar to ours and have failed. I was hoping Paul, Pip or some others might have better luck.

How do you get access to the matches in the photographed match box? Hinged lid, slide off lid, sliding drawer, etc.

Would there typically be a striker with a matchbox? If some guy is dressed up and carrying this match box he probably wouldn’t be striking the matches on the seat of his pants?

Is there any possibility that the match box has been misidentified? Could it be a cigarette case? (I know this question will be considered as blasphemy by some but I mean no offense.)

I don’t know when prefab cigarettes (as opposed to “roll your own”) began to be commonly marketed, what size they were (diameter and length). etc.

Just looking at outside dimensions of the Match Box (2 1/2 inches long and a 1/2 inch thick), could they correspond to something that would hold cigarettes? In this exercise I have “assumed” the box to be from the 1890’s time frame. Would several old Camel cigarettes from the 60’s fit in the box?

I promise I will move on from these types of questions shortly!

Garry
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

http://www.lostdutchmanmines.com/


scroll down and see the item.
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by novice »

Paul.

Good job! I was beginning to despair. The "match safe" term brings everything into focus. I had made numerous searches but I continued to use the term "match box" and came up empty. I was flailing around and that is why I even suggested it might be a cigarette case. :oops:

The history of the phosphorous match and the need for the match "safe" clears up a lot. I now see the serrated striker and if we had a photo of the back of the box we would probably see the hinges for the lid. The history is also helpful in establishing a likely time window for the match safe, albeit rather large.

Again, thanks for your follow through,

Garry
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by CLD »

Judging only from the picture...since the matchbox is not available to inspect, I have always thought that what is supposed to be a slab of ore actually appears to be a very well inlaid map of a certain section of the supes. Maps maps maps...everywhere maps. Who's to say?
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Did you find this one?

Image

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by djui5 »

Joe,
That is the first time I've seen that picture. The Rose Quartz really stands out.
Randy Wright
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by novice »

Joe,

Yes, I did see that one along with about 50 others. Paul's Match Safe term did the trick. I didn't see what the final price was for the one in the photo you posted but it was a handsome price. Its provenance which included President Grant as the presenter obviously helped the value along. I wonder how the Jacob Waltz's gold ore background stacks up against President Grant? :)

Another thing that we see in the Hirschfeld Match Safe is, that in addition to the large quartz gold panel, there are apparently 7 small triangular gold ore inlays on the lid. I saw some other examples of geometric inlays, and from what I can tell, the Hirschfeld safe craftsmanship and condition is right at the top.

Garry
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Holmes's Jewelry Items

Post by novice »

The following table reflects the identity of the surviving Waltz ore and jewelry derived from the previously mentioned sources. It is simply a visual aid, providing us a baseline for who noted the items and when.

An example would be the 1991 date for Dr. Glover’s involvement with the jewelry ore. Although Dr. Glover didn’t publish his book until 1998, from his chapter on ore testing, it appears that he actually viewed and tested the jewelry ore pieces in 1991. Similarly, Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn signed their affidavits in 1985 but related that they had viewed the jewelry 3 years previous, hence the 1982 date.

The table identifies 9 possible jewelry items from the Holmes collection. This total includes counting “2” gold watch chains. The nomenclature used in identifying the items may be causing replication which will reduce that total number of items.

Image

Garry
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Roger »

Garry,

When I dug through Greg Davis' collections for several days after this year's Rendezvous, I saw several 8"x10" photo's of the "match safe box" that is being discussed. I believe some were black and white and at least one was color with very good detail on the box. The photo's were most likely in the Richard Peck or Al Reaser collections.

Greg Davis might know exactly where they are located if you want to pursue obtaining a copy.

Your list probably probably needs to be expanded based on the above posting by Wasp about other individuals that ended up with Dutchman ore to include (quoted from Wasp):

1. Emil Ganz - known to posses gold ore made into jewelry that originated from Waltz to Holmes to the Goldman's.

2. One other identified Phoenix family that he knows purchased ore from the Goldman's
The Dutchman's ore tree may have a number of branches.

3. Also listed as ore owners were the Douglas family, Holmes, the Goldman's, Porterie, and Hirschfeld family.

4. Also posted earlier by Greg Davis is that one of the "watch chains" was changed into a ladies bracelet and is known to exist today.

Roger
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Bracelet

Post by novice »

Roger and Greg,

It may be awhile before we get back to Arizona but I will look forward to seeing the photos of the Match Safe someday. Do you remember if there were photos of the back of the match safe or with the lid opened? I’m still not sure from looking at Helen’s photo how you gain access.

By the way, are there any other photos in Greg's collection that depict any of the Holmes jewelry items? Those would be of great interest and help straighten out the “list”.

Maybe you guys can also shed some light on the “ladies bracelet”? That story might fit within the scope of this line of research and I’m a bit confused and have lots of questions. :)

Roger, you called it a bracelet and Greg called it a necklace?

Greg indicated that it was made from a watch chain and it might follow that it was made from one of those listed by Dr. Glover. I wasn’t sure if that was what was meant. Roger, you laid it out rather plainly when you said that “one of the "watch chains" was changed into a ladies bracelet”. I’m assuming that your reference, “one of the watch chains”, is referring to the watch chains Dr. Glover listed? I want to make sure I’m not misunderstanding something. Can I take that part to the bank? The watch chain’s provenance can be traced to Dr. Glover’s watch chains.

If this bracelet is indeed made from one of the chains that Dr. Glover referenced, would it be safe to assume that it was fabricated “after” the 1991 jewelry ore testing or possibly even earlier?

Roger, your post indicated that you thought that Greg’s response was positive and that the bracelet was made from Dutchman ore, yet Greg later used the word alleged? Does this indicate that there may be some question as to the provenance of the gold chains?

Roger, did you happen to take a picture of the photo of the bracelet? Is there gold ore associated with the links or is it simply conventional links of chain? If you happen to have a photo, I think everyone would love to see it.

Sorry about all of the questions but it is a fascinating story, apparently with at least some foundation.

Greg, I know you told Roger that you would look into the provenance of the bracelet and we all look forward to anything you can share.

Garry
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Roger »

Garry,

I'm going to let you run down this rabbit trail by yourself if you don't mind. I have way too much on my plate for LDM work currently and don't have time to dig into this topic. I have spilled my modest knowledge on the subject already and Greg probably needs to correct some of that.

I thought the watch chain was made into a bracelet, but it may have been a necklace - hope Greg clears this up.

Good luck with the hunt!

Roger
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Augustus H. Hirschfeld
February 2, 1865 - January 3, 1953
Wife: Ann Hirschfeld
Bookeeper and Accountant for the Craig Estate
Phoenix, Arizona
GH Hirschfeld.jpg
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Augustus H. Hirschfeld
February 2, 1865 - January 3, 1953
Greenwood Cemetery
Phoenix, Arizona
Section 28
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Dutchman ore matchbox
Gus H. Hirschfeld
George Holmes
Dutchman ore matchbox.jpg
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wasp,

Welcome home.

"If we assume the affidavit is a true statement of facts, what does that tell us? The best thing to do, is read the affidavit in Helen Corbin's book, and then read what Dr. Glover has to say on pages, 274 & 275 of "......Part 1: The Golden Dream". Something is amiss."

It's the best thing to do until someone comes along who knows the historical facts. It seems what was amiss, was all of the facts.

Many thanks for the information.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Joe R,

Thanks for the welcome.

Dutchman ore matchbox, reverse side.
This photo, plus the photo of the Dutchman ore matchbox I posted earlier, gives you a look at both sides of the matchbox. Not the best photos but can pick out the rose quartz matrix and native silver.

Gold26new.jpg
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Roger »

Garry,

If you look closely at the first Dutchman ore matchbox photo that Wasp posted above, you can faintly make out the separation lines where the lid of the box comes off. There does not appear to be any evidence of a hinged top, but it appears to just pull straight off.

I am struck again with the body of the matchbox being inlaid with "classic" looking LDM ore - ie, lots of gold in a white quartz matrix. However, as Wasp points out, half of the small triangle inlaid areas on the lid of the matchbox are set with a darker matrix that still contains a fair amount of gold. I think this is what Wasp was pointing out as "Rose Quartz" matrix. Jacob Waltz was reported as having both white quartz matrix gold and rose matrix gold - the interesting question is "did they both come from the same mineral deposit"?

Here's one of the statements supposedly made by Waltz:

"The shaft went down on an 18" vein of rose quartz quartz studded with pin-head nuggets. Beside it the 3" hanging wall of hematite quartz that was itself 1/3 pure gold."

Milton Rose wrote in his manuscript, "Rainbow's End", about Waltz having a rose quartz mine:

(Charles - my add) Roberts drew me a map of the one they had helped Waltz draw. It began with the wagon road from Mesa that ran just south of the end of the Goldfield Mountains and the Bull Dog's head on it. From there the road ran onto Grapevine Spring and a stone cabin. The map indicated two blazed cacti and an outcrop in the middle of the road at one point. ..... (Roberts said - my add) We should have looked for the outcrop in the middle of the road, marked by the blazes on the two cacti. I understand Morse, Hakes and company recovered $30,000 from it. The claim was called the Black Queen and the mined area is known as the "Mormon Stope". .... The specimen Waltz showed us was about one inch thick and only showed specks or plates of gold. The ore is called "Rose Quartz". The mattriz was the granite country rock in which it occurred. This is the specimen Julia showed people. The ore from the "mine" is mostly white quartz with some red iron. The ore specimen from the road is the origin of the "Rose Quartz" in stories. The "mine" ore had large chuncks of gold in it and not paint or plates like the ore from the "Mormon Stope".

Milton Rose got this information from Charles Roberts and David Schulters who Rose said were at Waltz's deathbed and got the map and information directly from Waltz.

This information, if true, makes one wonder if the Dutchman ore "matchbox" actually contains ore from two different mines that Waltz had collected and kept under his bed. The two ores are noticeably different and I don't think the testing Thomas Glover did on various ore samples focused on that difference.

Food for thought.

Roger
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by novice »

Wasp,

I won’t have to wait until I can get to Greg’s to see both sides of the matchbox. I had an image of a plain back side. I had no thought that there might be Quartz ore on both the front and back!

Great Photos!

Roger,

I believe you are correct about the type of lid.

I may have read the Milton Rose story once upon a time but I did not remember it. Kudos for surfacing it. Food for thought indeed.

Thanks to you both,

Garry
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Wasp »

Roger, Novice,

The lid of the matchbox does not have a hinge, it slips on and off and Roger is correct about the faint line showing where the lid and body of the matchbox seperate.

The ore used for the matchbox is from one single deposit. The dark areas Roger noted are extremely small pyramid shaped inlays. To make a more attractive piece of craftsmanship, the jewler chose a few pieces of the ore that contained specks of gold in the darker inclusions of that ore. He crafted them into geometric pyramids along the lid of the matchbox, alternating white quartz with the darker quartz inclusions. I don't know if people really appreciate the thought and craftsmanship that went into the making of this piece.

Quartz gold ore does not exclusively form in any one color of pure quartz. Look at the main body of the ore in the first photo of the matchbox on page 3. You will note small black spots and streaks. Those black spots are inclusions, traces of antimony, arsenic, sapheralite and galena present in most gold ore deposits. In the main body of the matchbox the jewler chose a slab that contained very few of these inclusions. In some of the tiny pyramid inlays however, he chose pieces of the ore that contained gold in larger pieces with these dark inclusions. He did this for contrast and to make a stunning geometric impact. It is the same ore, not ore from two seperate deposits.

Look again at the main body of the matchbox in the first photo on page 3. Focus on the upper left hand corner and across the top of that slab of ore. You should easily see the rose color hue to the quartz. Lower down on that same slab of ore, the quartz blends into a milky white. Visual proof that gold forms in quartz of varying color.
If you took a single small piece of ore from this deposit, it might show gold only in milky white quartz. Another small piece might show the gold in white-rose quartz and still another in a greyish color quartz.

Roger quotes someone who saw a specimine of ore Waltz showed him that was hematite quartz of 1/3 pure gold. Hematite quartz and gold deposits are so distinctive there would be no question if the matchbox ore were hematite. There is no indication whatsoever of hematite in the matchbox ore.

Milton Rose wrote things the way he heard them. His writing in Rainbow's End makes two basic errors in geology. He says the ore is called Rose Quartz. Rose Quartz is not the ore, it is the matrix the gold is attached to. Then he says the matrix was granite country rock. The granite country rock is not the matrix, it is the host rock the ore formed in. What he meant was the gold is in Rose Quartz matrix. As you can visualy see from the first photo on page 3, the matchbox contains gold in a Rose Quartz matrix.

Joe,

I do not agree with any of Dr. Glover's statements on page 275 of his book, The Golden Dream. There has been and still is a mines and minerology department at the University of Arizona. They have an extensive collection of ore from every known deposit in Arizona that is available, and Dutchman ore had been extensively tested long before Dr. Glover did his EDS testing at the University of Nevada. Dr. Glover believed what he wrote, but was not working from a full and complete knowledge of the facts and took other things out of context to come to his conclusion.

The following report is from an analysis done over 40 years ago on some of the exact same ore Dr. Glover EDS tested at the University of Nevada in 1997. Certain parts have had to be blacked out to protect the owner of the gold ore and who contracted to have the analysis done. The resulting analysis of the testing done over 40 years ago concludes the ore tested can be matched to no other known ore deposit anywhere in Arizona.

In my opinion, I believe Dr. Glover made an error with his testing by not focusing on the most important part of the test, identifying what TYPE of gold ore deposit the 4 different ores he tested were formed as. Dr. Glover instead focused on the different elements that each of the 4 samples included and then tried to compare them. This was an error because he did not have enough of a sample of any of the 4 ore samples to make a definate determination of the differences. Example: One of the ore samples might have an EDS trace of dolomite while the other three samples didn't show any EDS dolomite. This could easily be as simple as it was present in all 4 ore deposits, but only showed up in one because Dr. Glover didn't have enough of a sample of any of the ores to get a full, acurate picture. The ore tested over 40 years ago was a sample of over 7 pounds including matrix and host rock.
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Cubfan64 »

Wow Wasp!! When you come to a party, you show up bearing GIFTS!!! :)

Seriously, very interesting posts recently about the the dutchman ore and specifically the matchbox.

I think you just described in your last paragraph what my issue has been with SEM/EDX analysis of the ore/gold/matrix, etc.. and what I keep hearing about each ore deposit having it's own "fingerprint" so to speak.

I think in some ways it's a matter of everyone needing to speak the same language - and I'll be honest that I don't think I speak the geological language very well yet.

My point has always been that while I don't work with geological samples, I've spent my life doing chemical analyses of various other solid samples, and I know how critical it is to the entire analysis to get a representative sample - in fact, if that step is done incorrectly, it can invalidate all the rest of the work.

While SEM/EDX has one HUGE advantage over other analysis techniques in that it is non-destructive, a major (or at least major to me in this case) disadvantage is that one can only look at extremely small portions of a sample - which to me means you need to look at MANY of those small portions and mathematically come up with an average in order to get a better idea of the full picture. In many case, SEM/EDX is used to identify extremely small defects in things rather than an analysis to identify a large "matrix."

In the case you described about the inclusions being present containing a variety of elements, that means unless you happen to choose one of those specific spots to analyze, you're missing out on that elemental portion of the "whole." In order to get a picture of the "whole," one would need to do a huge sampling of spots, and it's not clear whether that was done or not.

What can certainly be done with SEM/EDX is analyze various portions of the gold itself and get a "fingerprint" so to speak of what other elements are present WITH the gold - not in the ore or matrix, but right there with the gold itself when it solidified from a molten mass long ago. Whether or not every portion of gold present in a specific vein of ore is composed of the exact same "fingerprint" of elements, I really don't know - I honestly doubt it, but I suppose it could be.

I always like analogys to try to paint a picture of an issue. I'll try one here that may not be all that great, but hopefully will help a little bit.

Let's say you have a 1' deep, 2' wide, 6' long box. You have 4 people with buckets and 4 drums of 1" diameter colored beads (each drum containing a separate color). Each person is assigned 1 of the drums and it's their task to dump a full bucket of their drum into the box every 15 seconds until the box is filled. There is no "mixing" or anything else that happens, the person just dumps it in wherever they want, however they want (fast or slow), etc...

When the box is finally filled, a sample of 1 bead is taken at random and "analyzed" for color. After each "analysis", a conclusion is made of the entire composition of the box.

I think you can see that the odds of determining the exact composition of the full box by randomly taking say a total of 20 x 1 bead samples is VERY SMALL. It would require one to have randomly drawn out 5 of each color exactly.

The perfect way to get the correct answer would be to analyze the ENTIRE box full, but that's never a viable option due to the amount of work and the fact that everything gets "destroyed."

The best way is to take a number of larger "grab" samples - in this case maybe taking 6 pint sized random grab samples from different locations, mixing them all together and counting the colors. The more grab samples you take, the better your approximation of the "whole."

I get the feeling that the assay report you presented here is exactly that - a combination of a number of random "grab" samples of matrix + host rock that were mixed together in some way to provide the most uniform/homogenous sample possible and then analyzed for all the properties listed.

When I look at it in this manner, and see an assay report such as you posted, I can absolutely understand and believe that every mine could have it's own specific "fingerprint" that makes it unique - at least until a new vein in a new host rock is exposed.

I hope you continue posting Wasp, as you've provided some insight that many of us have never seen! Thank you.
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wasp,

Great post.

As I said:

["If we assume the affidavit is a true statement of facts, what does that tell us? The best thing to do, is read the affidavit in Helen Corbin's book, and then read what Dr. Glover has to say on pages, 274 & 275 of "......Part 1: The Golden Dream". Something is amiss."

It's the best thing to do until someone comes along who knows the historical facts. It seems what was amiss, was all of the facts.]

I believe Dr. Glover's information was the best we had, until you posted your's.

It may be that the information you posted is common knowledge among some Dutch Hunters, but I doubt anyone here had an inkling that the document you posted existed.

That is why we are here.......seeking such evidence.

I would assume that no one who had this information shared it with Dr. Glover. He gave us what he could gather from the sources he used. I believe every author does the same. In the process of writing his book, he went to great lengths to get the true facts. As is the case with all of us, it may be that the truth was elusive.

Each of us here, tries to pass along what we learn in our individual research. There is no guarantee that our sources have been truthful, or factual. When that happens, the facts will be questioned, and often the true facts will come to light. That should not reflect negatively on Dr. Glover, or any of us. Rather we should each receive kudos for our efforts, even when we come out wrong.

I, for one, have no problem accepting any truth that contradicts what I have found. In fact, I welcome it. I know for a fact that my friend, Thomas, does as well. He has mentioned that he expects errors in his work, and has asked for corrections, which he will put into any subsequent printings.

His body of work is not perfect but, IMHO, the massive personal research he has done deserves respect, just as yours does.

Thank you for bringing us the wood for our little fire.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore

Post by Cubfan64 »

After reading Joe's post, I thought I should clarify as well that I in no way mean to imply that any of Dr. Glover's work in the chapter specific to analyzing Dutchman ore is inaccurate. At this stage of the game, destructive analysis of any ores possibly associated with Waltz's ore just isn't viable - non-destructive methods such as SEM/EDX are some of the best options available and certainly can provide valuable information.

The more different analytical tools used, the more complete the picture becomes.
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