Adolph Ruth’s Third Trip Out West?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Ozarker
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Post by Ozarker »

Cubfan:

If anybody would have known where to point us, it should have been the library. Good idea on checking with them. I will keep looking for more info as time allows. I'm still trying to grapple with the employment chronology that novice provided but nothing has jumped off the pages yet.

Joe:

Thanks for pointing out the mountains. I've got some older USGS maps that may cover that area and will try to dig them out tonight.

Larry
Roger
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Jal New Mexico Topo Map

Post by Roger »

Here's the web page for Jal, NM, on TerraServer:

http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T ... qs=|jal|nm|

Jal is located on the Colorado Plateau which is an area that is around 3000ft elevation, but very flat over long distances. If you pan the topo map in the four directions you will find for mountains:

East: None for several hundred miles. I grew up in West Texas around Midland as my Dad was a petroleum engineer and oversaw the drilling of hundreds of wells in that area into New Mexico in the 1940's. I assure you that the area from West Texas on into Eastern New Mexico is really flat land! All of the small circles you see on the topo's are oil well pads - there are thousands and thousands of them - really something to see from a plane.

North: None for several hundred miles - flat.

South: Will hit the Glass Mtns in Texas in about 100 miles, but they are not that high at first, ~2000 ft, and then climb to over 6000 ft in another 50 miles.

West: None for 100 miles until the other side of Carlsbad and hit the Guadalupe Mtn.

This does not look like a good place to make one's headquarters for hunting lost Mexican/Spanish mines. The earlier postings on what types of businesses/occupations were active at the time Ruth would have been there appear to list "ranching" as the top one. Would strongly suspect Ruth was there on assignment for meat inspection purposes or possibly training locals on regulations.

Roger
Roger
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Map Showing NM and TX Mountains

Post by Roger »

Here's a weather radar map that has a topo relief view of NE New Mexico and Texas. Jal is located at the SE corner of NM and you can get a feel for how far it is from there to any mountains of any substance.

Roger

http://www.wfaa.com/weather/radars/texas/animated/
Joe Ribaudo
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Peak Distance....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

It's a long distance, any way you look at it. I think my figures for miles are pretty close. I get 84.6 miles northeast from Jal to that 6,034.3' peak.
It's 16.1 miles, almost due north (slightly east) from White's City.

I don't think Ruth was making that trip. I would be more inclined to look for a Ruth connection to potash. That may not seem so far fetched once you look into it.

Take care,

Joe
Roger
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Jal Terrain

Post by Roger »

Joe, we are in general agreement on the distance to mountainous terrain from Jal. The 6034 ft peak you reference is WNW of Jal on the West side of Carlsbad, NM.

Regards,

Roger
Ozarker
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1900 USGS Map

Post by Ozarker »

Hello All:

Here is the 1900 USGS map for Texas and Eastern New Mexico from the Texas State Library Collection:

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/arc/maps/images/map7054a.jpg

This map is alot better than anything I have and more accessible to everyone. There are other maps at the parent web site and they are arranged chronologically, covering many different themes (railroads, sttlements, spanish missions, etc.). It's a great site to explore when you have some spare time.

Joe:

I am not very well versed when it comes to chemistry or the uses of various compounds and substances. Could you enlighten me on why Adolph would have been interested in potash? From what I've read on it, in the 1800s the primary source for potash was burning off hardwoods as land was cleared for farming and as Paul said it was used as a fertilizer and I believe lye soap? I don't see the connection to manganese but maybe you could save me some time? Thanks.

Larry
Cubfan64
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Post by Cubfan64 »

I've tried to find a good link between manganese, potash and Lea County New Mexico and really can't find much.

While manganese ore is found in New Mexico, it just doesn't appear to be a significant resource. Unless I'm mistaken, manganese was never really tied to Adolph's interests anyways - wasn't that Erwin's deal?

I'm not sure we'll ever be able to figure out what Adolph Ruth was down there for, or even what time frame it was. Who knows really - it could be he was interested in investing in oil/natural gas?

I forget who it was, but someone asked if Garry and I were positive the note is in Adolph Ruth's handwriting. I'll see if I can find the e-mail I sent to Garry where I did some comparing of handwriting and how I became convinced the note is actually Adolph's.
Ozarker
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Post by Ozarker »

Hmm. Well, the BAI's tick eradication program involved dipping cattle in a solution of petroleum and arsenic. Now if we could figure out the manganese angle we'd have this about wrapped up! :lol:
TC ASKEY
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Post by TC ASKEY »

Paul and Garry,

Try looking into the Ochoa family.
Cubfan64
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Post by Cubfan64 »

TC ASKEY wrote:Paul and Garry,

Try looking into the Ochoa family.
I'll see what I can find - I get the feeling you have some information or a guess at something? Anything you're comfortable sharing that might speed along the searching?
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djui5
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Post by djui5 »

Cubfan64 wrote:
TC ASKEY wrote:Paul and Garry,

Try looking into the Ochoa family.
I'll see what I can find - I get the feeling you have some information or a guess at something? Anything you're comfortable sharing that might speed along the searching?

No newbie!! You must use the force!!






:lol: :lol: Just kidding :D 8O
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Cubfan64
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Post by Cubfan64 »

djui5 wrote:
Cubfan64 wrote:
TC ASKEY wrote:Paul and Garry,

Try looking into the Ochoa family.
I'll see what I can find - I get the feeling you have some information or a guess at something? Anything you're comfortable sharing that might speed along the searching?

No newbie!! You must use the force!!

:lol: :lol: Just kidding :D 8O
Hehe - I was afraid of that :)
Cubfan64
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Yikes...

Post by Cubfan64 »

lots and lots of Ochoa families around there - will take some more digging to come up with anything worthwhile I'm afraid.

I'll add it to my ever growing list of things to do :)
Cubfan64
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From what I can find out from a number of different sources

Post by Cubfan64 »

nobody seems to know for sure how Ochoa got it's name. None of the locals I spoke with had heard of it being named for an Ochoa family.

This one's probably going to go on the back burner for me unless you can point me in another direction TC.
pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

ochoa is not a spanish name...it is basque...
Cubfan64
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A funny thing about Ochoa though...

Post by Cubfan64 »

One of the persons I spoke to today told me that nobody had asked about that town in a very long time, but yesterday someone came in and asked where Ochoa was located - she thought that was such a strange coincidence me asking about it too :)
Joe Ribaudo
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Basque????

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

pip,

"ochoa is not a Spanish name...it is basque..."

Actually that is incorrect. Ochoa is a Spanish name. 8O If you want to be (overly) correct, the Basque name would be, Otxoa and Ochoa is the Castilianized form of Otxoa. In other words, Ochoa is a Spanish name of Basque origin.

We are really talking about the Ochoa family surname that is connected with Mexico. Most Ochoa in the U.S. would claim their families originally came from Mexico. That might indicate a Spanish origination for their ancestors. I doubt you could find many who speak Basque, in Mexico or the U.S., but I could be wrong.

It is only since 1979 that the Basque people of Spain have gained autonomy. The French Basque are still under French rule, as far as I know. :)

Joe Ribaudo
pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

Joe Ribaudo
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Too much Ochoa......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

pip,

I had already visited a half-dozen sites to make sure I got the correct information. The one you posted was among them. Here are a few more:

http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Ochoa-family-history.ashx

http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/q ... -crest.htm

http://pu110769.student.Princeton.edu/o ... us;sfa=n2o

The Ochoa name is Spanish, but it is their version of a Basque name. I gave you one of the correct spellings (Otxoa) for the Basque. Many of our words are uniquely American but are derived from other languages.

For something like this, it's almost a given that you will have to use the Internet for your sources. If I have to do that, I always look at a number of sites, as it's surprising what you can learn from each.

Joe Ribaudo
Ozarker
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Ochoa

Post by Ozarker »

Hello All:

I dead-ended on Ochoa too. There's just not alot on the web about it. It was mentioned early on that Ochoa, NM may have been named after Ochoa, TX which is another ghost town on the Rio Grande about 10 miles NW of Presidio, TX. It was also mentioned that it may have been named after an Ochoa family ranch, but no Ochoa's show up in Lea County NM in either the 1920 or 1930 census.

The only other Ochoa I ran across that had some significance in the early 1900s was a General Ochoa who was a leader in the rebellion against the rightists in the Mexican Revolution, but still no direct ties to the village in New Mexico.

Not trying to beat a dead horse, just thought I'd throw this out in case it helps to ring a bell for someone.
pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

i found this one...

http://www.cousinconnect.com/d/a/154703
places an ochoa in the area...
Cubfan64
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Post by Cubfan64 »

pippinwhitepaws wrote:i found this one...

http://www.cousinconnect.com/d/a/154703
places an ochoa in the area...
I caught that one last night as well PWP and was just going to post it today. The name Cristobal caught my attention, but I didn't do anything more to follow up on it.

I may not have time to do much more on this for a few days, so hopefully someone else can follow up and get some information.
Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Larry and Paul,

I believe that manganese plays an important role in trying to tie these disparate stories together. While it may be that Erwin Ruth had no interest in manganese in 1931, the possibility remains that he did.

"Jim Bark could never give up his prospecting and mining blood. It was in September of 1902, Bark got involved in another mining deal with Ed Jones. They claimed to have found a rich deposit of manganese." (Tom Kollenborn)

Did Tex acquire that manganese deposit when he purchased the ranch?

Is there a manganese deposit within easy hiking distance from Willow Spring? Gene Reynolds believes that Adolph Ruth was looking for a saddle, with certain landmarks, somewhere in the vicinity of the north end of West Boulder. That saddle is the one that crosses over into Little Boulder.

On page eight, of Ely's book, he writes: "In the thick brush overlooking West Boulder Canyon about one hundred feet above the canyon floor, one of the dogs came upon a skull-to which particles of flesh still adhered." On page nine, he writes: "In the first week of January, 1932, Deputy Sheriff Jeff Adams of Phoenix, accompanied by Tex Barkley, did make a further search of that brushy ridge overlooking West Boulder Canyon for the body of Adolph Ruth. Their search was successful. At a considerable distance from the spot where the skull had been discovered, they found a dismembered skeleton which was easily identified. Among the scattered bones was the silver surgical plate."

Is it possible that truth got mixed in with the complete fabrication that obscured the murder of Adolph Ruth? After seventy-seven years is the truth just beginning to be unearthed?

Joe Ribaudo
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