Larry,
that's an interesting drawing Joe posted.
It is a 'perfil or 'profile map, which means this is what can be seen from the vantage point of the artist.
The map is facing south, looking up the 'North trending canyon. (When there is water in the canyon, it flows north)The hill shaped object center left is the bluff or rise from which the mine is located. The odd little loop on the right end (center of drawing) is the vertical pit along the ledge. Notice the wide 'v' shaped canyon outline just below. The object in the right center that looks like Weaver's Needle is a secondary miner's needle, about two hundred yards to the south on the west side of the canyon. I'ts crude, but I believe it represents an actual location.
LOST OR.....FOUND?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Saddle Above Willow Spring......
Larry,
You will find many opinions of what/where that drawing is depicting. You will need to judge each opinion on its own merits, including your own.
Everything that is said on this forum will be open to critique. I have no problem with that, as that's what forums are for. The reason I posted the picture of Weaver's Needle through the "Gunsight", was to give everyone the chance to test the theory with a visual piece of evidence.
Years ago, I found another view of Weaver's Needle. For many reasons, beyond the view itself, I believed this was what Waltz was drawing. While I could just provide a description of what's what, I find a picture more compelling.
Take care,
Joe
You will find many opinions of what/where that drawing is depicting. You will need to judge each opinion on its own merits, including your own.
Everything that is said on this forum will be open to critique. I have no problem with that, as that's what forums are for. The reason I posted the picture of Weaver's Needle through the "Gunsight", was to give everyone the chance to test the theory with a visual piece of evidence.
Years ago, I found another view of Weaver's Needle. For many reasons, beyond the view itself, I believed this was what Waltz was drawing. While I could just provide a description of what's what, I find a picture more compelling.
Take care,
Joe
Looks Good
That looks pretty darn good. Very similar to the drawing.
laz
laz
Joe and Lazarus:
Thanks for the responses. I recognize the drawing from Helen Corbin's book. As I recall, Helen didn't give any additional background on it. I'll make it a point to review her book again this weekend.
To me, Joe's second picture (from the west of the needle) is a better fit than the photo from the Silver Chief area. I guess a case could be made for either though.
I haven't read Jack's book yet and am still sifting through information on the Silver Chief Mine area so I'm holding off on casting a vote in the poll.
I know what I want the answer to be, but will try to remain objective while the evidence unfolds.
Great info and thanks again!
Larry
Thanks for the responses. I recognize the drawing from Helen Corbin's book. As I recall, Helen didn't give any additional background on it. I'll make it a point to review her book again this weekend.
To me, Joe's second picture (from the west of the needle) is a better fit than the photo from the Silver Chief area. I guess a case could be made for either though.
I haven't read Jack's book yet and am still sifting through information on the Silver Chief Mine area so I'm holding off on casting a vote in the poll.
I know what I want the answer to be, but will try to remain objective while the evidence unfolds.
Great info and thanks again!
Larry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Gunsights.....
Larry,
I happen to agree with you on this one.
As for gunsights, they come in many shapes. A "U" shaped rear handgun sight, closer to my picture, is a big help for older folks with fading eyesight. It allows us to get on target much quicker by sliding the gun onto the target. This style is pretty popular and has been around a long time. The "express" works the same way.
The reason for calling it a gunsight, I would imagine, has something to do with Weaver's Needle being in the sight.
Take care,
Joe
A selection of open sights, and one aperture sight suitable for use with long eye relief: A) U-notch and post, B) Patridge, C) V-notch and post, D) express, E) U-notch and bead, F) V-notch and bead, G) trapezoid, H) ghost ring. The gray dot represents the target.
I happen to agree with you on this one.
As for gunsights, they come in many shapes. A "U" shaped rear handgun sight, closer to my picture, is a big help for older folks with fading eyesight. It allows us to get on target much quicker by sliding the gun onto the target. This style is pretty popular and has been around a long time. The "express" works the same way.
The reason for calling it a gunsight, I would imagine, has something to do with Weaver's Needle being in the sight.
Take care,
Joe
A selection of open sights, and one aperture sight suitable for use with long eye relief: A) U-notch and post, B) Patridge, C) V-notch and post, D) express, E) U-notch and bead, F) V-notch and bead, G) trapezoid, H) ghost ring. The gray dot represents the target.
Joe
A gun sight comes in many shapes, [ad hominem attack deleted by admin]
A saddle is a depression or slope between two hills resembling the saddle of a horse. A gunsight is a man made feature pointing to a place or feature, usually made by carving or piling stones.
[ad hominem attack deleted by admin]
Laz
A saddle is a depression or slope between two hills resembling the saddle of a horse. A gunsight is a man made feature pointing to a place or feature, usually made by carving or piling stones.
[ad hominem attack deleted by admin]
Laz
Map and Photo
Oh,
and I haven't explained why the Joe theory doesn't hold up. [content deleted by admin because it is straying into a general ad hominem attack instead of explaining why the mentioned theory does not hold up]
Laz
and I haven't explained why the Joe theory doesn't hold up. [content deleted by admin because it is straying into a general ad hominem attack instead of explaining why the mentioned theory does not hold up]
Laz
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Joe Ribaudo
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Personal Attacks......
[post deleted by admin because neither ad hominem attacks nor responses to such attacks are relevant to the LDM. Both belong in the Boxing and Wresting forum]
Hello All:
Quite a few posts back, Joe and Novice had a discussion concerning the growth of John Mitchell's LDM story, specifically the element dealing with Waltz's carpenter and the Iron Mountain/Pinto Creek area.
The citation Joe quoted from Mitchell's 1953 book (which didn't appear in his 1933 book?) appeared word for word in the March 1941 issue of Desert Magazine. Unfortunately, the magazine article did not include a copy of the "carpenter map" Joe posted (sorry Novice!).
Another story I ran across dealing with the Iron Mountain area comes from an interview of Herman Petrasch by Mary L. Bagwell in 1953. The pertinent part appears toward the end of the interview, which was conducted at Herman's home south of the Superstition Mountains. It reads:
"Herman got up from his chair and crossed to his front door. He pointed to the north. 'Straight north of here - over there,' he indicated, 'is Iron Mountain; a little west is White Mountain. There are two old Spanish mines there, making ten that I know of in the Superstitions'."
I know it doesn't deal specifically with the mine being discussed, but it was a nice diversion for me.
Larry
Quite a few posts back, Joe and Novice had a discussion concerning the growth of John Mitchell's LDM story, specifically the element dealing with Waltz's carpenter and the Iron Mountain/Pinto Creek area.
The citation Joe quoted from Mitchell's 1953 book (which didn't appear in his 1933 book?) appeared word for word in the March 1941 issue of Desert Magazine. Unfortunately, the magazine article did not include a copy of the "carpenter map" Joe posted (sorry Novice!).
Another story I ran across dealing with the Iron Mountain area comes from an interview of Herman Petrasch by Mary L. Bagwell in 1953. The pertinent part appears toward the end of the interview, which was conducted at Herman's home south of the Superstition Mountains. It reads:
"Herman got up from his chair and crossed to his front door. He pointed to the north. 'Straight north of here - over there,' he indicated, 'is Iron Mountain; a little west is White Mountain. There are two old Spanish mines there, making ten that I know of in the Superstitions'."
I know it doesn't deal specifically with the mine being discussed, but it was a nice diversion for me.
Larry
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pippinwhitepaws
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i believe the older stories have more validity than the new age searchers...
one thing about most of the old accounts...they were not written to make the person money...they were tales shared by the people who lived in the area...who were out there every day...
the people who shared with me told the tale; the spanish had mines all along a certain ridge... from the san pedro to the salt...no one knew how many mines...they had several camps...and a race track...not one of the new searches have posted the location of the spanish horse race track...there is a place in superior one can take a photo similar to those just posted here...that view of weavers needle...even better since it is on a line to the four o'clock shadow...
if there was ever a mine...why has not one of the people who claim to have found it...not filed...simple thing to do...four posts, a monument...file location papers in phx or florence...free gold as long as you file....
hi-grader?
one thing about most of the old accounts...they were not written to make the person money...they were tales shared by the people who lived in the area...who were out there every day...
the people who shared with me told the tale; the spanish had mines all along a certain ridge... from the san pedro to the salt...no one knew how many mines...they had several camps...and a race track...not one of the new searches have posted the location of the spanish horse race track...there is a place in superior one can take a photo similar to those just posted here...that view of weavers needle...even better since it is on a line to the four o'clock shadow...
if there was ever a mine...why has not one of the people who claim to have found it...not filed...simple thing to do...four posts, a monument...file location papers in phx or florence...free gold as long as you file....
hi-grader?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Mitchell.....
Larry,
I have heard that Mitchell was a better story teller than a prospector, but have no idea if that's true. I make my own judgement of the man's work by researching history.
Herman was as close to the beginning of the legend of the LDM as anyone. He certainly was searching a long ways from where Julia started her search. Of course, he also searched close to her starting point. Something drew him to the Iron Mountain area.
pip,
"if there was ever a mine...why has not one of the people who claim to have found it...not filed...simple thing to do...four posts, a monument...file location papers in phx or florence...free gold as long as you file....
hi-grader?"
Many, many people who thought they had found the LDM, filed claims through the years. As far as I know, none of them ever produced any gold.
I assume that Mitchell wrote his books for money. That would not be an unusual motivating factor.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
I have heard that Mitchell was a better story teller than a prospector, but have no idea if that's true. I make my own judgement of the man's work by researching history.
Herman was as close to the beginning of the legend of the LDM as anyone. He certainly was searching a long ways from where Julia started her search. Of course, he also searched close to her starting point. Something drew him to the Iron Mountain area.
pip,
"if there was ever a mine...why has not one of the people who claim to have found it...not filed...simple thing to do...four posts, a monument...file location papers in phx or florence...free gold as long as you file....
hi-grader?"
Many, many people who thought they had found the LDM, filed claims through the years. As far as I know, none of them ever produced any gold.
I assume that Mitchell wrote his books for money. That would not be an unusual motivating factor.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
Mitchell
Ozarker,
Thanks for the background on the Mitchell story. It seems that maps, documents and stories are thrown around with abandon but when it comes down to the provenance, it is frequently lacking. It makes little since to me for people to make maps, documents and stories public but the “identity” of the sources must be protected?
Along those lines, when I first became interested in the Superstitions, the map that caught my attention was the Helen Corbin map attributed to Jacob Waltz. Joe’s “gunsight map”.
Aside from the fact that it supposedly came from Waltz himself was the side story that on the back were the German stamps. I thought that sounds simple! Get a copy of the images of the stamps, research them and determine the time frame (Before 1891). How naive! I posted the question about the existence of the original map or when the German stamp story originated. No one seemed to know anything. It took a couple of years but I slowly began to realize that there “appears” to be little substance to such stories. There may be people who will claim they have seen the map and I would love to offer a retraction if I’m wrong, but I’m skeptical that anything convincing will ever be offered.
Garry
Thanks for the background on the Mitchell story. It seems that maps, documents and stories are thrown around with abandon but when it comes down to the provenance, it is frequently lacking. It makes little since to me for people to make maps, documents and stories public but the “identity” of the sources must be protected?
Along those lines, when I first became interested in the Superstitions, the map that caught my attention was the Helen Corbin map attributed to Jacob Waltz. Joe’s “gunsight map”.
Aside from the fact that it supposedly came from Waltz himself was the side story that on the back were the German stamps. I thought that sounds simple! Get a copy of the images of the stamps, research them and determine the time frame (Before 1891). How naive! I posted the question about the existence of the original map or when the German stamp story originated. No one seemed to know anything. It took a couple of years but I slowly began to realize that there “appears” to be little substance to such stories. There may be people who will claim they have seen the map and I would love to offer a retraction if I’m wrong, but I’m skeptical that anything convincing will ever be offered.
Garry
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pippinwhitepaws
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i have been apalled at how easily the new searchers slander others...
i do not do citations unless i am writing a paper for academics....
on that note...the people who shared the stories of the mountains and mines with me had surnames like cox, rose, porter, olsen, robbins...not the original searchers, but their children...
i have never seen maps presented by these people...nor have they published their theories to make money...
that does seem to be the purpose of these sites now...not to actually find the truth of the tales, but to increase one's bank account.
truth has a way
i do not do citations unless i am writing a paper for academics....
on that note...the people who shared the stories of the mountains and mines with me had surnames like cox, rose, porter, olsen, robbins...not the original searchers, but their children...
i have never seen maps presented by these people...nor have they published their theories to make money...
that does seem to be the purpose of these sites now...not to actually find the truth of the tales, but to increase one's bank account.
truth has a way
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Joe Ribaudo
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Gunsight.....
Garry,
Hope all is well with you and the wife.
"Along those lines, when I first became interested in the Superstitions, the map that caught my attention was the Helen Corbin map attributed to Jacob Waltz. Joe’s “gunsight map”."
I always called the view of the map/my picture, The Dutchman's Saddle. Someone who's opinion I respect very much, gave the view from the mine the "gunsight" name.
Since the picture I have posted is his, I could hardly change the name.
Questioning Mitchell's stories, as to provenance, seems like something that could be applied to all the writers of LDM lore. That also goes for almost all of the Jesuit/Southwest treasure authors. You can expect to be castigated for any such sacrilege. You seem to take that very well, and just continue to do some of the best research that has been done to date.
Bursting egos, like balloons, seems to bring on a loud response.......almost every time.
When I started, age thirteen, I believed every story I heard. That continued for many years, until I started seriously researching the Jesuit connection to the Superstitions. It took some time, but it opened my eyes to the value of questioning every story and every source. I believe that is your own method of research.
Not only are there people who "claim to have seen" these long lost clues but many will twist the clues that can be seen, just to add weight to their conclusions and announcements. Pictures taken from up close, cropping out the real evidence, are used to win a point. Many "old" clues in the mountains were created by modern-day Dutch Hunters.
Keep up the good work.
Take care,
Joe
Hope all is well with you and the wife.
"Along those lines, when I first became interested in the Superstitions, the map that caught my attention was the Helen Corbin map attributed to Jacob Waltz. Joe’s “gunsight map”."
I always called the view of the map/my picture, The Dutchman's Saddle. Someone who's opinion I respect very much, gave the view from the mine the "gunsight" name.
Since the picture I have posted is his, I could hardly change the name.
Questioning Mitchell's stories, as to provenance, seems like something that could be applied to all the writers of LDM lore. That also goes for almost all of the Jesuit/Southwest treasure authors. You can expect to be castigated for any such sacrilege. You seem to take that very well, and just continue to do some of the best research that has been done to date.
Bursting egos, like balloons, seems to bring on a loud response.......almost every time.
When I started, age thirteen, I believed every story I heard. That continued for many years, until I started seriously researching the Jesuit connection to the Superstitions. It took some time, but it opened my eyes to the value of questioning every story and every source. I believe that is your own method of research.
Not only are there people who "claim to have seen" these long lost clues but many will twist the clues that can be seen, just to add weight to their conclusions and announcements. Pictures taken from up close, cropping out the real evidence, are used to win a point. Many "old" clues in the mountains were created by modern-day Dutch Hunters.
Keep up the good work.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Waltz......
Garry,
There are a number of stories that have Waltz being met going into the Iron Mountain area. As I recall, Barry Storm wrote one.
Take care,
Joe
There are a number of stories that have Waltz being met going into the Iron Mountain area. As I recall, Barry Storm wrote one.
Take care,
Joe
Seems the "first" German stamp was issued in 1849. Also, read this:
Prior to the German unification of 1871, individual German states and entities started to release their own stamps, Bavaria first on November 1, 1849 with the one kreuzer black. States or entities that issued stamps subsequently were Baden (1851), Bergedorf (1861), Braunschweig (1852), Bremen (1855), Hamburg (1859), Hannover (1850), Heligoland (1867), Lubeck (1859), Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1856), Mecklenburg-Strelitz (1864), Oldenburg (1852), Prussia (1850), Saxony (1850), Schleswig-Holstein (1850), and Wurttemberg (1851). Also Thurn and Taxis while not a state had the authority to issue stamps and transport mail and released stamps (1852). The northern German states joined in the North German Confederation in 1868 and united their postal services in the "North German Postal District" (Norddeutscher Postbezirk). After the unification, Bavaria and Wurttemberg retained their postal authority to continue producing stamps until March 31, 1920.[5
Prior to the German unification of 1871, individual German states and entities started to release their own stamps, Bavaria first on November 1, 1849 with the one kreuzer black. States or entities that issued stamps subsequently were Baden (1851), Bergedorf (1861), Braunschweig (1852), Bremen (1855), Hamburg (1859), Hannover (1850), Heligoland (1867), Lubeck (1859), Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1856), Mecklenburg-Strelitz (1864), Oldenburg (1852), Prussia (1850), Saxony (1850), Schleswig-Holstein (1850), and Wurttemberg (1851). Also Thurn and Taxis while not a state had the authority to issue stamps and transport mail and released stamps (1852). The northern German states joined in the North German Confederation in 1868 and united their postal services in the "North German Postal District" (Norddeutscher Postbezirk). After the unification, Bavaria and Wurttemberg retained their postal authority to continue producing stamps until March 31, 1920.[5
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
"Herman was as close to the beginning of the legend of the LDM as anyone. He certainly was searching a long ways from where Julia started her search. Of course, he also searched close to her starting point. Something drew him to the Iron Mountain area"
Uhhh, His job? He was searching in the north east area for a while in Lost Duch canyon. Same thing there.
I know he worked as a cook, dunno how much Cowboying he did though. His resume is a pretty good who's who of dutch hunters though.
Do people really think he lived in a cave his whole life?
Uhhh, His job? He was searching in the north east area for a while in Lost Duch canyon. Same thing there.
I know he worked as a cook, dunno how much Cowboying he did though. His resume is a pretty good who's who of dutch hunters though.
Do people really think he lived in a cave his whole life?
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
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Joe Ribaudo
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Herman.....
Wayne,
So are you saying that Herman's job was the only reason he searched that part of the range? It would be interesting to hear the facts about some of that job history. What can you tell us?
I thought he had a ramshackle shack on Queen Creek. Can't really trust many of the LDM authors to not embellish the stories a bit, so it would be nice to hear the unvarnished truth about Herman.
Getting back to our pit mine......Why would anyone work a worn out silver mine in the late nineties. I will send you an email with a little more information.
Take care,
Joe
So are you saying that Herman's job was the only reason he searched that part of the range? It would be interesting to hear the facts about some of that job history. What can you tell us?
I thought he had a ramshackle shack on Queen Creek. Can't really trust many of the LDM authors to not embellish the stories a bit, so it would be nice to hear the unvarnished truth about Herman.
Getting back to our pit mine......Why would anyone work a worn out silver mine in the late nineties. I will send you an email with a little more information.
Take care,
Joe
What was Herman looking for? He seemed pretty much up on every bit of legend and lore. I don't think it was the LDM 24-7. I am sure he didn't eat dirt. I believe the shack was his retirement condo, so to speak. Problem was he had no pension from a regular job. Thought the Martins took care of him a bit and paid for his funeral?
I chased the trail of his working the mines in Superior in the 30s, but never found any conclusive proof. I am sure he did, but it was either off and on or just for a short period of time. By 1938 he was in Florence Junction, 74 years old and unemployed....most likely because of his health and age.
I chased the trail of his working the mines in Superior in the 30s, but never found any conclusive proof. I am sure he did, but it was either off and on or just for a short period of time. By 1938 he was in Florence Junction, 74 years old and unemployed....most likely because of his health and age.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"