LOST OR.....FOUND?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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IS THIS THE LDM?

YES
7
28%
NO
18
72%
 
Total votes: 25

Joe Ribaudo
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Snowbirds Of A Feather.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Tom,

I have the OK from our friend to post the pictures. Talked to him before I even started the topic.

I spent too many years in cold country. Don't really care if I ever see that white stuff again.

If I am able, your offer is not one I could refuse. Keep in touch.

I have known the pit was not the Silver Chief, despite the beliefs of a number of knowledgeable people, for around two years now.

Take care,

Joe
don
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Post by don »

Cubfan64 wrote:
don wrote:cant anyone spot the "deliberate(?) "mistake" in all this?
If there is a mistake - deliberate or not, why not point it out instead of just implying it?

i was going to, but if you want to be cocky,fine ...work it out yourself..prick
Don update your email address
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Post by Cubfan64 »

don wrote:
Cubfan64 wrote:
don wrote:cant anyone spot the "deliberate(?) "mistake" in all this?
If there is a mistake - deliberate or not, why not point it out instead of just implying it?

i was going to, but if you want to be cocky,fine ...work it out yourself..prick
I'm not going to derail this thread by getting into a flame war with anyone.

I apologize that my comment came across in the tone you interpretted it, as I meant nothing disrespectful there at all - In fact, I was originally going to just respond with "what mistake, can you point it out?" but felt that would sound too snotty and sound like I was "fishing for information" so I just asked what I thought was a polite and legitimate question.

If you knew me, you'd know I'm about the furthest you can get from being cocky and a prick.

Ok - back to the topic....
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Post by TC ASKEY »

Go ahead Don. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Terry
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

to the criminals who have destroyed this site. i am doing my utmost to see that the correct law enforcment agency recieves the photos of the destruction you committed upon this site.
i urge the superstition mountain historical society to contact the correct authorities to bring these criminals to justice.

i don't care if you did find gold...if i have anything to do with it you will soon be seeing the gold badge of a federal marshall.

donald peterson
southwest historian/museum science
flagstaff, arizona
Joe Ribaudo
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Uncalled For......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Don,

IMHO, your reply to Paul was totally uncalled for. He is a decent guy and asked a legitimate question. I should hope the Webmaster will remove your post, or that you ask him to. If we are going to return to the old name calling days, this Forum will turn back into a ghost town.

Hope all is well over there. I sure miss Bill's banter, what about you?

Take care,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
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What's It Worth.......?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

I believe this is a good/important point:

[1) Someone(s) risked a GREAT DEAL by spending time digging there. They risked jail and huge fines for something they felt was worth it. I believe it had to be more than a hunch and a small amount of silver/gold etc... That kept them working there for as long as they did (if it was indeed off and on for several years).]

This was no "on the cheap" deal, with a couple of guys with miner's picks chipping away at the rock. The average price for silver from 1997 through 1999 was $5.19 an ounce.

To be worth the risk, they had to be working a very rich vein.....of gold.

This is a new (modern times) tunnel they dug:


Image

Take care,

Joe
Cubfan64
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Post by Cubfan64 »

Go ahead Don. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Terry
I should have worded it the same way. I hope to see what you were trying to point out Don.
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Post by djui5 »

Tom,
Hey buddy! Miss ya :D

Don,
Please post the mistake! :) I know Cubfan and am 100% positive that his post was taken the wrong way. Reading it, I can see how someone could easily take that sentence defensively, but can assure you he's one of the kindest people I've met.

Joe,
You're killing me here....MORE 8O
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
don
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Post by don »

my apologies to cubfan,my remark was out of order..your reply and its meaning was prob "lost in translation" by me..its one of the defects in communicating through a medium such as this..a private apology will follow in the next few minutes.
re "deliberate mistake" might indeed be a mistake by me, i want to check a few things before i give my reasons for my remark....cos i may well have things wrong myself, in which case ill never live it down :(
joe,
you were qhite right in your remark ,and id be obliged if the webmaster would remove the offending part of my post.
yes, bill is sorely missed, his banter was a joy at times, his mask slipped several times, and it became apparent that there was a great deal more behind his act than he wished to show.
again my apologies
Don update your email address
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Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

Photos of a modern day shaft and tunnel along with the trash from a weekend camping trip left by a bunch of wet backs, so far, is not very convincing that this is the correct location. Even when you throw in the story from P.C. Bicknell.

Bushrat speaks of a stone face but there are several stories concerning stone faces as well.

So in other words...." Where's the Beef ."

Terry
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No Beef......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sorry Terry,

There is no beef......

It's been eight years since the mine was worked. The story has been floating out there for a number of those years. What you have, is only a hint of what took place.

I have heard that most of the people involved, have left the building......so to speak. What I have, was given to me by a friend who discovered the site some time ago.

This story will remain, pretty much, just as it has been told. I can supply more pictures, but it won't all be exposed in a day.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by TC ASKEY »

More pictures might help along with any clues or information from long ago.
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Post by Cubfan64 »

Joe - earlier you said...
I believe Bicknell was talking about the ruins at Angel Springs, but there are many ruins and caves in the Superstitions. There is a cave very close to the Pit Mine. The cache sites are also very close to the mine, and are easy to see.
This is an interesting comment - can you expound on this without giving away information you can't divulge? Specifically, the bolded statement I assume you have reason to believe the cache sites were also discovered and emptied? Was it done by the same person(s) who dug out the pit mine you are showing photos of?
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Caching In......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

Since I was not there, I can't swear those who worked the mine found anything else. The evidence on the ground, which can be seen in one of the pictures I posted, is that the answer is probably yes.

The mine is just inside the Wilderness Boundry, but is not a "protected site", as pwp claimed in a previous post. Many of his statements, that have been made here, have no truth in them......whatsoever.

Why do I get the feeling that Jan has come back from the dead? :roll:

Take care,

Joe
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

Post deleted by admin.

It should have been posted in Boxing & Wrestling forum.

First and last warning to pippinwhitepaws. Next inappropriate post will have you banned.


count
Joe Ribaudo
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Protected Sites......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

[Archaeological sites in Arizona are the remains of a long occupation of prehistoric, protohistoric, and historic cultures. They are a fragile and non-renewable resource....... All archaeological sites on public (federal and state) land in Arizona are protected by the Archaeological Resources Protection Act and various state laws that prohibit digging, removing artifacts, and damaging and/or defacing archaeological resources; these laws provide for felony and misdemeanor charges with jail time, confiscation of property, and large fines. Arizona state law also protects graves (human remains) and grave goods located on state and private lands.]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

While the Wilderness Area would come under the umbrella of Federal and State protection, the mine in question may not fall under the following Act:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979

Section 3

As used in this Act—

(1) the term “archaeological resource” means any material remains of past human life or activities which are of archaeological interest, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to this Act. Such regulations containing such determination shall include, but not be limited to: pottery, basketry, bottles, weapons, weapon projectiles, tools, structures or portions of structures, pit houses, rock paintings, rock carvings, intaglios, graves, human skeletal materials, or any portion or piece of any of the foregoing items. Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological specimens, or any portion or piece thereof, shall not be considered archaeological resources, under the regulations under this paragraph, unless found in an archaeological context. No item shall be treated as an archaeological resource under regulations under this paragraph unless such item is at least 100 years of age.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have my doubts that anything at the mine site would fall under the Act. The only thing, in my opinion, that could be labeled as over 100 years old......is the LDM story. This may or may not be that mine.

It is, however, under the specific protection of the Wilderness Act. I'm no expert, but believe the two are distinctly different.

IMHO, opinions should be labeled as such. All of my comments here are opinion and should not be construed as fact.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

Laws
Act for the Preservation of American Antiquities, June 8, 1906 (16 USC 431-433)
[Public Law 59-209, 34 Stat. 335] Provided for protection of historic, prehistoric, and scientific features on federal lands, with penalties for unauthorized destruction or appropriation of antiquities; authorized the President to proclaim national monuments; authorized scientific investigation of antiquities on federal lands subject to permit and regulations.

National Park Service Organic Act of August 25, 1916 (16 USC 1-4, 22, 43)

[Public Law 64-235, 39 Stat. 535] Established the National Park Service and directed it to manage the parks to "conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects... and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations."

Historic Sites Act of 1935 (16 USC 461-467)

[Public Law 74-292, 49 Stat. 666] Declared a national policy to preserve for public use historic sites, buildings, and objects . . . authorized the NPS to restore, reconstruct, rehabilitate, preserve, and maintain historic or prehistoric sites, buildings, objects, and properties of national historical or archaeological significance and . . . "establish and maintain museums in connection therewith"; authorized cooperative agreements with other parties to preserve and manage historic properties.

Reservoir Salvage Act of 1960, as amended (16 USC 469-469c)

[Public Law 86-523, 74 Stat. 220] Provided for the recovery and preservation of historical and archeological data (including relics and specimens) that might be lost or destroyed in the construction of dams and reservoirs.
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Going Up????

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

On the other hand, it could be these guys where just practicing.......in case they ever found a real mine. 8O

Image

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

Time Crime: Protecting the Past for Future Generations


By Robert D. Hicks

Whether taken by naive hobbyists or plundered by sophisticated criminals, the legacy of our ancestors is in jeopardy.

Mr. Hicks is a law enforcement specialist in the law enforcement section of the Commonwealth of Virginia's Department of Criminal Justice Services in Richmond.

Beneath the plowed soil of Slack Farm in rural Union County, Kentucky, rested an important Native American village, a community of wattle and daub houses where acres of maize, beans, and squash grew at the confluence of the Wabash and Ohio Rivers between 500 and 1,300 years ago. Although relic hunters periodically visited the site, the Slack family, who had owned the farm for generations, turned them away.

But successive owners welcomed them. In the late 1980s, several men paid the new landowner $10,000 to lease digging rights between planting seasons. To obtain the Native American artifacts they sought, the men bulldozed the site.

Neighbors, annoyed at and suspicious of the digging, contacted the Kentucky State Police, who stopped the operation. Inspecting the property, police found human remains strewn everywhere. Aerial views of the bulldozed site, which aired on national television, showed a pockmarked landscape that, according to many observers, resembled a World War I battlefield. In their quest for wealth, the men had pushed aside centuries of a people's history--their tools, potsherds, hearths, and houses--while leaving modern debris, including soda and beer cans, among the artifacts. In particular, the men had disturbed or destroyed hundreds of graves.1 Residents were understandably upset, not only by the desecration of the graves but also by the inability of Kentucky law to cope with the damage and theft. Because the men had crossed state lines with their bounty, they faced felony charges stemming from the interstate commerce provision of the Archeological Resources Protection Act (ARPA), a federal law. However, under state law, the men could be charged only with "desecration of a venerated object," a misdemeanor. Outraged Kentuckians demanded an amendment to the law; members of the state legislature responded by voting unanimously to criminalize grave desecration as a felony. Looters illegally obtain artifacts or antiquities whereas relic hunters obtain them legally but unscientifically. They both span the spectrum of socioeconomic background, education, and upbringing. In some places, looting has become an accepted, multigenerational activity, a part of the local culture. In other cases, hobbyists, ignorant of the law, trespass and loot wherever they choose, even in national parks. Whatever their motivations and methods, these people are stealing a part of history. And, unfortunately, they often get away with it.


THE SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM

An archeologist who serves as a consultant to police investigating archeological theft estimates that over half of the 6,000 recorded sites on national forest lands in Arizona have been destroyed by looters. In southwest Virginia, 95 percent of all Native American graves have been destroyed or severely disturbed by "headhunters," the local term for looters.2 Three recent developments have fueled an increase in looting-the public's fascination with the past, a growing interest in collecting, and the rapidly escalating value of the artifacts.

Over the last 30 years, interest in popular history has soared. Local history has become a do-it-yourself industry. People untrained in academic history plod through local records to construct their genealogies. Seeking links to a fading past, but not necessarily their own, they collect everything from rock albums and memorabilia to salt and pepper shakers and Vic-torian mourning jewelry, creating a multimillion dollar market for objects variously described as historic, antique, or merely nostalgic.

Indeed, relic hunting has been, and continues to be, a vigorously pursued pastime for some and a commercial enterprise for others. Looters live by the motto, "If it's old, it can be sold."3 They have cut up and sold Inuit (Eskimo) totem poles. They have stolen old tombstones from cemeteries and used them as lawn ornaments. They even have stolen and sold human remains. The high prices some artifacts bring on the commercial market confirm their value and inevitably invite criminality. Civil War belt buckles fetch over $10,000 each; a Native American pot from the Southwest sells for $400,000. German and Japanese collectors alone buy approximately $20 million worth of Native American artifacts yearly.4

In many countries, antiquities have provided an alternate economy. Civil wars in Asia and Europe leave plundered museums in their wake, either through deliberate destruction or merely as casualties of war. Many of the pillaged art treasures enter the international art market, where other museums may purchase them, sometimes unwittingly, sometimes knowingly.5 Competition for artifacts has become so fierce that armed looters have assaulted and shot at archaeologists performing scientific work in Central and South America.


APPLICABLE LAWS

The role of law enforcers has expanded recently; enforcement of laws relating to the preservation of history has become a key responsibility in some jurisdictions. These agencies have realized that law enforcement, in addition to protecting life and property, must preserve the past as well. While federal law has prohibited looting from federal or Native American properties since the beginning of the 20th century, enforcement of those laws rarely occurred until about 20 years ago. The Archeological Resources Protection Act, which became law in 1979, was strengthened in 1988, mainly to overcome obstacles encountered during prosecutions. A general-intent law, ARPA prohibits people from excavating, damaging, defacing, altering, or removing archeological resources (or attempting these acts) from public or Native American lands without a permit.6

To be protected resources under ARPA, looted objects must constitute evidence of past human existence, possess archeological interest (not necessarilynsignifi-cance), and be over 100 years old. Objects, or resources, are defined broadly to include not only such relics as pottery, tools, and shipwrecks but also rock art, skeletal remains, features of houses or other construction, and even vegetal remains or organic waste.

Of particular interest to state and local law enforcement, however, is ARPA's commercial provision. No one may sell, purchase, exchange, or transport resources (or offer to do the same) in violation of ARPA, any other federal law, or any state or local law. Thus, looters who dig up Native American relics on private property without permission and traffic those relics across state lines violate ARPA.

The 1988 amendments to ARPA included a felony threshold of $500. If the cost to repair a damaged resource plus either the commercial value of the stolen artifacts or the archeological value (usually measured as the cost of retrieving archeological information from the site through scientific investigation) exceeds $500, then the crime is a felony. Under this definition of value, then, most ARPA cases are felony investigations. The law also prohibits attempts to destroy, damage, or remove protected resources, so that officers do not have to idly stand by and watch while looters destroy those resources.7

As a result of over a decade of prosecutions, ARPA "is well ensconced in the legal landscape."8 Indeed, formidable and inventive challenges to ARPA in the courts have affirmed the law's utility and effectiveness. In the late 1980s, for example, Bradley Owen Austin was convicted for looting in the Deschutes National Forest in Oregon. He challenged the constitutionality of ARPA, claiming vagueness, and also argued that he had the right to hunt relics to further his education. The court ruled against him, reinforcing the notion that public lands are held in the public trust. Another more recent case affirmed ARPA's jurisdiction over interstate trafficking in antiquities stolen in violation of state law.

ARPA contains other features that make it attractive to law enforcement. In addition to calling for criminal penalties, ARPA permits civil recourse through an administrative law judge. Also, relic hunters convicted under ARPA forfeit their assets, including vehicles, equipment or tools, contraband, and clothing.

The other significant federal law that protects past resources is the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA). Important for museums, NAGPRA mandates that holdings of Native American human remains be inventoried and surveyed. In some cases, skeletons have been returned to Native American descendants for reburial according to tribal custom.

The law also prohibits trafficking in Native American human remains or any cultural items. After becoming law in 1991, NAGPRA's first prosecution and conviction occurred a few years later in Virginia, where a federal government employee took illegally obtained Cheyenne bones from the Custer Battlefield in Montana and sold them to an undercover officer in Virginia.9


LOOTING METHODS AND INVESTIGATIVE COUNTERMEASURES

The nature of looting presents enforcement difficulties. Once unearthed, artifacts are difficult to link to a looted site. Many protected resources, whether above or underground, are hidden from public view, some within thousands of acres of national forests or parks, where one officer may patrol millions of square acres. As a result, much looting goes undetected and unpunished. Professional looters take steps to avoid detection. They carefully plan their illegal excavations, studying archival or library materials and topographical maps. If the sites are remote, looters may reach them by horseback, all-terrain vehicle, or foot.

Looters observe law enforcement patrol behavior and may approach sites only when law enforcement presence is low or hampered, for example, at night (using the full moon to illuminate digging), during inclement weather, or on holidays. To further avoid detection, looters may post lookouts, use watchdogs, or employ radio scanners to track law enforcers. Some looters carry false identification or forged permits. Law enforcement officers have even caught looters wearing fake park ranger uniforms.

Not all looters develop such elaborate schemes to avoid detection. Many simply wear camouflage clothes and disguise their equipment by painting shovels or metal detectors black. The more sophisticated looters carry sifting screens and probing rods that locate graves or artifacts by detecting changes in soil density. Near or on the looted site, the thief may store tools, supplies, or unearthed artifacts for later retrieval.

Once looters find artifacts, they may sell the items directly, through a dealer, or through a broker who serves only a few clients. During Project Sting, agents from the National Park Service offered artifacts allegedly looted from federal property to lure a real estate businessman. The arresting investigator had first identified the suspect at a relic show. At these legal events, looters may sell legally obtained items aboveboard, while surreptitiously arranging illicit deals under the table. By comparison, hobbyists ignorant of the law may openly try to sell illegally obtained artifacts.

Relic shows can assist law enforcement officers in many ways. The shows can provide law enforcement officers with investigative leads needed to pursue undercover operations. Officers also can use these shows to enlist assistance from legitimate traders who want to keep their own reputations unblemished. Officers even may be able to catch looters in the act as they attempt to obtain merchandise for upcoming relic shows.

While the best enforcement opportunity obviously involves catching looters in the act, officers also may cultivate local informants or obtain confessions from the looters themselves. Informants--nearby farmers, campers, or hikers who may witness looting--can provide crucial intelligence.

As for the looters, anyone on or near public property at odd hours becomes a candidate for further investigation. In addition, if officers discover fresh digging or site damage, they may be able to locate a suspect close by and conduct a surveillance to obtain additional information. No law enforcement officer can afford to devote dozens of hours to tracking looters. Fortunately, officers are most likely to encounter offenses when pursuing other violations. In one case, officers executing a search warrant at a residence photographed a collection of Native American relics later described as "the most impressive collection of Indian artifacts in northern California."10 A sheriff's deputy who had been an archeologist saw the photographs, recognized the significance of the relics, and after developing additional intelligence, served another warrant at the same property, this time for ARPA violations. As it turns out, the suspect previously had been convicted under ARPA and had hidden the artifacts in order to prevent their seizure by federal authorities.

As another example, officers might stop the driver of a pick-up truck on suspicion of driving under the influence. If officers notice that the truck bed contains cardboard boxes of what appears to be freshly dug relics or human remains, along with dirt-encased shovels, they should investigate further.

Officers must be able to identify and describe the tools and equipment used by looters. Many tools and the camouflage clothing that some looters wear are innocuous by themselves, but taken in context create a suspicion of criminality.11

It is important that law enforcement officers not presume that looters, by virtue of the kind of crime they commit, are benign hobbyists. Some looters arm themselves and may fire at officers. In any event, officers encountering looters should take precautions for their own safety. Although looting cases involve some unique procedures, officers should process a looting scene much as they would any other crime scene. First, they must document, measure, and photograph the scene carefully.

Second, they should collect soil samples. For most other crimes, soil reveals little about the crime. However, in looting cases, soil becomes important evidence. A laboratory analysis might reveal pieces of pottery or bone or even pollen that match the evidence to the crime scene and perhaps to individual suspects if dirt is found on their confiscated clothing.

Third, officers should take casts of footprints and impressions of shovels. Coupled with the soil, this evidence can link suspects and artifacts to a particular site.

The case file should contain a statement from the appropriate issuing authority that no state or federal permit existed to allow the suspect to excavate, remove, displace, or destroy protected resources. Finally, federal cases require that an archeologist provide a damage assessment-including an exact description of what has been lost, recovered, damaged, or displaced-and determine the costs significant to ARPA.


FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL COOPERATION

Despite federal successes, antilooting efforts at the state and local level have been irregular. State laws protecting historic or archeological resources vary and sometimes do not parallel the ARPA. Nevertheless, many state initiatives show promise. Investigative and prosecutorial efforts have displayed creativity and ingenuity in both sting operations and innovative applications of the law. In 1993, Florida applied its own Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act to obtain guilty pleas for conspiracy from four men for destructive relic hunting at both state-owned and federally owned parks. Using bulldozers and backhoes, the men had destroyed thousands of cubic yards of historic materials.12 In Indiana, the state supreme court affirmed a lower court decision that applied the state's archeological protection law to private property.13

In Virginia, most historic or archeological protection laws have specific applications that do not not always compare to federal interests. Virginia protects human burials wherever they are found, on pain of a felony penalty. Misdemeanor penalties attach to other heritage laws.

There is one difference between Virginia's law and the ARPA that has important implications for law enforcement. In Virginia, archaeologists are not required to help investigate crimes. Still, without an archeologist's assistance, an officer would find it difficult to process a crime scene or present a case for prosecution. This is because an archeologist's expertise usually is needed to describe what was disturbed, vandalized, or recovered and to place a monetary value on the damage to the site and the recovered artifacts. For this reason, the state trains officers to contact archaeologists to help conduct investigations, and a number of professional archaeologists have volunteered to assist law enforcement officers with investigations and to testify in court.


TRAINING INITIATIVES

Under its Archeological Resources Protection Program, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center provides a 1-week training program for federal law enforcement officers and prosecutors. This comprehensive program reviews applicable laws, teaches investigative and crime scene techniques, includes a field trip to an archeological site, and tests participants with a practical scenario.

Some states have developed their own training initiatives as well. In Florida, a new law mandates a 2-hour curriculum on archeological resource protection for basic law enforcement academy classes. In Virginia, the Department of Historic Resources and the Department of Criminal Justice Serv-ices created a policy on the theft of historic resources. An accompanying training program acquaints law enforcement officers with the looting problem, reviews applicable state and federal laws, and outlines an investigative protocol, modeled closely on federal procedures and honed through prosecutions.

While law enforcement officers need training, the public also must be educated. In many places, looting serves people's hobbies or supplements their incomes. In Arizona, for example, looting has become so firmly entrenched in the culture that in order to present their case in court, two Arizona attorneys first had to justify why looting is a crime. CONCLUSION "Like words plucked from the middle of a sentence,"14 artifacts stolen from their resting places leave a question mark in the timeline of history. But with the appropriate tools, training, and support, law enforcement officers can help preserve the past.




Endnotes

1 Harvey Arden, "Who Owns Our Past?" National Geographic 175(3) (1989): 376-393; Also, see Brian Fagan, "Black Day at Slack Farm," Archaeology 41(4) (1988): 15-16, 73.

2 Thomas Klatka, archeologist, Virginia Department of Historic Resources, interview by author, October 12, 1995.

3 Tom Dunkel, "A Nation's Heritage at Risk," Insight, February 17, 1992, 14.

4 The theft of and trafficking in antiquities and their market values has been documented widely. See Dunkel, Insight; Daryl F. Gates and William E. Martin, "Art Theft-A Need for Specialization," Police Chief, March 1990, 60-62; Barbara Hoffman, "The Spoils of War," Archaeology 46(6) (1993): 37-40.

5 See Stephenie Slahor, "Society to Prevent Trade in Stolen Art," Law and Order, October 1996, 181-2.

6 ARPA is defined under 16 U.S.C. Section 470aa-47011. For a legislative history of the law and its current application, see Sherry Hutt, Elwood W. Jones, and Martin E. McAllister, Archeological Resource Protection (Washington, DC: The Preservation Press, 1992).

7 ARPA was carefully drawn to exclude hobbyists or collectors. Surface finds of arrowheads or coins, for example, from protected federal or Indian lands are allowable without a permit. However, taking such items may constitute theft of government property.

8 Sherry Hutt, "The Archaeological Resources Protection Act," The Federal Lawyer, October 1995, 34.

9 United States v. Maniscalco, No. CR-94-1139-M (E.D. Virginia March 21, 1995). The defendant was also charged with violating the ARPA.

10 Quoted in Common Ground, 1(1), 1996, p. 8.

11 See Charles R. Swanson, Neil C. Chamelin, and Leonard Territo, Criminal Investigation, 5th ed. (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1992), 67.

12 Reported in Federal Archaeology, 7(2), summer 1994, 11.

13 Indiana's Historic Preservation and Archeology Act prevailed in Whitacre v. State, 619 N.E.2d 605 (Ind.App.1993), aff'd, 629 N.E.2d (1994), where the state required a man to obtain a permit to dig Indian relics on his own property.

14 Supra note 3, 36.
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Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

I see what you mean by no cheap deal. That looks like a pretty
extensive operation to me. It would be interesting to know what
they found.

Terry
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What's It Worth.......?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

Whatever it was, it was coming up that shaft encased/surrounded by silver sulfides. They were finding something that encouraged them to continue working for three years running. 8O

I don't believe they were mining the story.........Other's will come to their own conclusions. Like I said, maybe they just needed the practice. :roll:

If it's not the LDM, it's the double. :wink:

I imagine half the fun was just getting there:

Image

Take care,

Joe
TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

You could actually be correct. Maybe they did just need the practice.
But to say " If it's not the LDM, It is a double " is a little thin.
You will need better photos of more than just an empty hole to keep
the conversation going. The participants are down to you, me, and one
of the many personalities of the ultimate liberal.
Until then, I'll have to keep my own theory and sit next to the stove and stay warm.

Terry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Quuite Possible.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

I never really expected there to be a lot of participation in this topic. No Dutch Hunter want's this mine to be the LDM......other than the ones who found it. :lol:

Unfortunately, my source for the story and the pictures has the most compelling reasons for it being Jake's mine, and it's not one I would want him to tell.

The compelling part of his story, is how he came to find the pit. It was well after the finders had cleaned the old mine out and the pictures you are seeing was all that was left.

I have the picture of the face but will not post it, until he gives the OK. Bushrat also has the picture. If Randy makes some more trips to the location, he will soon find and photograph the formation.

It's funny how so many of the "Waltz clues" are there, but the really big ones........ the ones that lead you away from the mine, are not. 8O

I believe your assessment of our "ultimate liberal" friend, is probably correct.

It's a beautiful day in Lake Havasu City. I will be going down to our store to observe the "Big Boy and Their Toys" show. Street will be closed off for the event.

Take care,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Low Participation.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

One of the other reasons, I believe, for the tepid participation in this topic, is because not that many people are aware or have any knowledge of this story; however, that does not equate to lack of interest.

This is the most popular topic, concerning the LDM, on the Internet today.
Part of that interest has to relate to the [i]possibility[/i] that it may all be true.

This was a project that was going to be carried on to the last ounce of ore in the mine.

Image

Reminds me of Viet Nam.

Joe
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