Waltz Gold

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"That much gold back then would work out to "around" 1,300lbs. IF, IF IF IF someone sent that much gold over time, it would ONLY require 87 trips at 15lbs a trip."

Your figures are a little misleading as Waltz would have needed nothing but gold nuggets or dust to reach that $254,000 figure. No ore, but pure....raw gold. I believe there is little evidence that he had gold dust, and not much evidence that he, normally, used nuggets in his dealings.
Seems that "ore" was the norm in most stories.

If the "ghost" documents at Wells Fargo name Waltz and the total amount shipped by him, it would also seem that dates and individual amounts would be part of that record. Any large shipment of bullion would not be kept a secret, no matter who Waltz paid off.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Does this mean no one knows why Hayden's Ferry was created? I was sure someone would say, so folks could get across the river.

People crossed at that place for years. Problem was, when the Salt was in flood, you needed a ferry. Most of the time the river was knee high there.

Takes you right back to the possibility that the Two Soldiers might have gone south from Fort McDowell and gone east after crossing the river.

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

A number of well known Arizona Wells Fargo agents were also famous for many other reasons. One was even involved with the Alamo, Colonel Travis and General Sam Huston. Many of the agents only worked....part time. All in all, they were a huge part of Arizona's history.

Two of the better know "messengers" for Wells Fargo were, Wyatt and Morgan Earp.

Joe Ribaudo

[CLD]

Considering that it was called gold ore, is it possible that the ore could have contained some amount of platinum group elements in enough proportion to inflate the value of the ore but a small enough amount to still call it "gold" ore.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"So they were burned right? We know Wells Fargo has a very extensive history in AZ around that time, with stages running everywhere, so why isn't there any records and what happened to them all?"

So, basically, you knew the answer to your own question.....right?

Actually, Wells Fargo refused to accept money, notes or drafts that were destined for Florence, Globe, Pinal and Prescott in 1885.

Joe

Randy,

For the record, Wells Fargo did not have any "Wells Fargo" stagecoach's in Arizona.

Take care,

Joe

[Roger]

Using the Warrant that Waltz used to send money to his sister in Missouri, here are some calculations:

Gold Price on 12/31/1849 = $20.67
Web site for historical prices: http://www.indiabullion.com/gold_history.php

Ounces of pure gold in $7000 @ $20.67 = 338.7 Troy ounces

Troy ounce = 1.1 Avoirdupois ounces

338.7 Troy ounces = 372.6 Avoirdupois ounces

372.6 Avoirdupois = 23.3 lbs (16 oz/lb)

Waltz had hand cobbed the ore and I would estimate he would only have had about 1x the weight of matrix versus the gold weight as the matrix would be less dense than the gold. This is based on the specific gravity of gold being 19.3 and quartz being 2.65 which means the quartz volume in Waltz's gold was 7x that of the gold. A conservative estimate. That would make the weight of what he would have hauled out of the mountains to be 46.6 lbs. Less than a full burro load.

Not too much of a weight challenge for the tough old codgers of the 1800's.

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,

Without casting aspersions on any of the people who are publicly associated with the "draft", it has a number of problems.......as I recall. I believe everyone acted in good faith except, possibly, the original (unknown) source for that document.I believe a well known Dutch Hunter paid that source for the artifact. I have no doubt he believed in it's authenticity.

There is no other record of Waltz ever shipping any gold ore........anywhere. Wells Fargo did not ship gold ore, in Waltz's time, from Arizona. They did ship refined gold ore in the form of bullion, using private shipping firms and stage lines. This kind of transaction was not with the individual prospectors, but the companies they had sold their gold ore to. In any case, those Arizona records are no longer in existence.....anywhere.

As I mentioned in an earlier post: "One of my sources was the Wells Fargo Historian from the company museum in Phoenix. The other is Dr. Robert J. Chandler, senior research historian for Wells Fargo Bank and president of the book Club of California."

The true history of Wells Fargo is even more interesting then the myth, as far as I'm concerned.

Take care,

Joe

[Roger]

Joe,

Would you agree with my point that $7000 in gold doesn't amount to a big load to get out of the Superstitions?

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,

I don't see any problem with that.......at all.

I would expect the warrant to be worded differently if it were secured/purchased with gold concentrates. Ore would be something else entirely.

I did a ton of research into that topic. My conclusion at the end, was that the warrant was not authentic. I would guess if it were, there would be redundant documentation.......somewhere. However, finding it is "above my pay-grade".

Take care,

Joe

[murphy]

Looking at the pictures available of the document have always led me to believe it to be a forgery. There is a portion that appears to be taped or pasted over the original page. Such an impotrtant document showing a transfer of a substantial amount of money would not be pasted together.