Rendezvous and Ely's Book

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ThomasG
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Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by ThomasG »

We all know the Dutchman has a great deal of misinformation associated with it. At the 2019 Rendezvous I gave a talk about Sims Ely’s book.

Allow me a bit of review from that talk. After multiple rejections by New York publishers Ely’s submitted his manuscript to William Morrow and Co. who passed the manuscript to John Willey for his assessment. Willey, too, thought the manuscript was not publishable. However, he saw something other book publishers had missed — the subject of the story would make a good book. Willey took control, writing/rewriting the book. In the end he produced a very successful book.

Sunday morning as I was leaving the 2019 Rendezvous I stopped at Greg Davis’ camp to visit with Greg. Matthew Roberts was also there. Matthew informed me that I had it wrong! Ely’s book was not written by Willey, but by another person.

Matthew said he had tracked down the records/information of William Morrow & Co. after their demise. He also had came to the conclusion that Ely did not write the book. However, he stated that it was not Willey who created Sim’s book, but someone else.

Matthew informed me that Willey was the treasurer at William Morrow and Co. Why would a manuscript be given to the treasurer, and not an editor or writer? Why would Willey have had anything to do with a manuscript? We disagreed and left it at that. The below addresses the “book/treasurer issue”.

Willey’s New York Times obituary (May 3, 1990) addresses the above: “After his discharge as a captain in 1946, Mr. Willey joined William Morrow as assistant to the president. He served as treasurer from 1952 to 1957 before becoming editor in chief. In 1979 he became a consulting editor, and he retired from the company in April 1980.” (For those who may want to check this out, all I did was go to Google and type in: "John Wiley William Morrow" -- It came up as the first
information entry.)

Note, Willey did not become treasure in 1952, but he joined William Morrow circa 1946.

When what was a rather hot potato landed thart William Morrow & Co circa 1948 – 1950 the manuscript was given to Willey for his assessment. He was then assistant to the president of William Morrow and Co. The writing/creation of Ely’s book started years before Willey was appointed treasurer.

The below items are from the Ely collection. They illustrate that it was William Morrow and Co. who published the book, that it was John Willey who produced the book as it is today, and that he was working on the book years before he became treasurer.

Much/Some of Ely’s original manuscript survives, and it is obvious why so many publishers turned it down. Ely had spent almost his entire career with and writing government reports. His original manuscript is written much like a government report … detailed, thorough and, pedantic.

One of the most poignant letters to Willey from the Elys is the dedication to Jim Bark. As the book progressed Ely wanted to pay direct homage to Bark. He wrote the dedication to Bark and sent it to Willey at all most the 11th hour. The family was hoping there was still time to include the dedication – Willey assured them it would be included!

Attached are three missives between the Elys and Willey.
Willey.1950.pdf
(384.76 KiB) Downloaded 68 times
Willey.1950.pdf
(384.76 KiB) Downloaded 68 times
Ely.1953..pdf
(50 KiB) Downloaded 54 times
Attachments
Willey.3.1953.pdf
(46.61 KiB) Downloaded 58 times
don
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Re: Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by don »

hi thomas,
do you know how many copies of Elys book were sold? because basically we could get an example of what constituted a "successful book" in those days of long ago..if its simply a matter of numbers sold,then id hazard a guess that barnards book would have been successful too,judging by the number of times it was reprinted...be that as it may ,my opinion of barnards book/pamphlet is that it was full of half truths-quarter truths and downright lies,same as Elys book was..so ,again in my opinion it matters little who wrote it,who amended it, who edited it,or how successfull it was ..all that is important is whether or not it was a factual account or "truth in fictional form" ,or untruths stated as factid say it fell between all 3 footstools for whatever reason. kind regards
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ThomasG
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Re: Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by ThomasG »

Don,

Pardon the late reply. A verity of techie issues, and life have delayed me getting back to you. You wrote:

“… be that as it may, my opinion of barnards book/pamphlet is that it was full of half truths-quarter truths and downright lies, same as Elys book was.. so ,again in my opinion it matters little who wrote it, who amended it, who edited it,, or how successful it was ..all that is important is whether or not it was a factual account or "truth in fictional form", or untruths stated as facts say it fell between all 3 footstools for whatever reason. kind regards.“

I am pretty much of the same mind. That is, just what’s what with any particular book or article (or Internet posting) – is it an honest attempt to get at the facts, or is it a fiction book or posting based on facts, or is it simply made from whole-cloth … perhaps a good read, or a posting to impress others, but nothing more.

IMHO Ely’s book owes a great deal to not only to Whiley, but also the movie Lust for Gold. The movie was a major film produced by Columbia Pictures starring Glen Ford Ida Lupino -- both of whom were major actors on their way up at the time. Ford’s carrier had started to take of in the mid-1940s.

William Morrow and Co. would have received Sim’s manuscript at roughly the time Columbia had started on the movie version of Storm’s book Thundergods Gold. The movie was released in early 1949, about the same time as Whilley would have started in Ely’s manuscript.

Ely’s book was likely one, if not the only one, to make it in the major markets. I do know that it had multiple printings in the States, and there was at least one printing in Britain.

Interestingly, Storms book set a standard that is rarely matched this day, his Notes of Authenticity.

T
don
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Re: Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by don »

Thomas,
I had Ely's book (the u.k printing) published by eyre & spottiswoode..funnily enough i sold it to someone on this very forum through ebay..i remember the buyer thanking 2 other prospective buyers on here for standing down on the bidding so he could get it cheaper,which i thought then was a tad childish. he plainly knew he was buying it from me and wanted me to know ..but i got the better deal because i got the money back it cost me ,and he got a book sized dollop of basically nonsense lol. interesting possible connection to the "lust for gold" movie,goes to show that "all that glistens isnt gold".Im a born cynic of course anyway, but regret deeply the amount of time and effort ,not to mention the money spent on researching,buying books etc on a subject which thro the years did very little but highlight my gullibility. i think i wrote this before ,but i dont really know why parts of the legend still fascinate me...maybe im hoping that circs will appear which will show me that i wasnt quite as gullible as i think i was. Give storm his due ,his first books fair swung along at a great pace..id say his book was far more influential in promoting the legend ,than any book or pamphlet before,or indeed after..not in a factual way ,but in a kind of "king solomons mine" rip roaring adventure way. but with very few exceptions that is the way of book publishing,newspaper reporting and today internet headlines. being economical with the truth never hurt either ely or storm.dIDnt storm get involved with a law suit against the lust for gold film makers..i remember vaguely him accusing them of being part of a communist conspiracy against him and his "literary masterpieces" (dunno whether to laugh or cry at that)..anyhow tks for replying ..kind regards
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cuzzinjack
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Re: Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello don and Thomas,

I too had a 1952 copy of “The Lost Dutchman Mine”, and it’s surprising that Sims Ely has come under scrutiny here. From what I’ve read, Sims wrote the manuscript while near-deathbed. He had no axes to grind, no fortune to be made. He admitted that the only real physical evidence that he and Bark found was the stumped area at Soldier Camp and the trail to the top of Bluff Springs Mountain. Regardless of how the manuscript was massaged, these facts remained in the published book. It was the first book I read on the subject, and was very inspiring to me. Ely and Bark spent their entire lives looking for the mines, off and on, and were true believers.

Immediately after I gave my presentation last February at the SME convention in Phoenix about the Molly Marie Prospect, a person approached me from a medium-sized mining company and said, “Yes, you’ve got an IOCG deposit, and it’s a little spotty. Do you want to sell it?” I told him, “Not at this time.”

Having this person approach me with this statement, is quite honestly, the greatest accomplishment of my life, and it’s the fruition of almost 20 years of study and searching. I wish Sims and Jim were here to see the enormity of the mining that took place.

This was right before the Wuhan virus hit, and who would have known the chain of events that would take place. The relentless creation of fiat money worldwide, including crypto, will cause great inflation, and gold and copper will stand very, very tall.

cuzzinjack
don
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Re: Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by don »

hello cuzzin jack...re ely and the trail up bluff spring mountain..id say way back when i read it 1960 0r so.it was prob the first thing that caught my eye,or rather captured my imagination and to me anyway seemed to give credence to the going ons there...the trail deliberately/cunningly engineered so that a person the trail could see anybody below,but the person down below couldnt see anyone on the trail etc..now whether thats how it is ,i dont know,never having been there...but if thats just the way it is,rather than being DELIBERATELY constructed with that purpose in mind,presumabley to allow hundreds/thousands of burros laden with gold ore to go up or come down without others being able to see...then its a bit of a fraud on elys part. once an author fiddles with or bends the truth ,as far as im concerned he or she loses all credibility...but of course bluff springs trail is far from the only issue with his book...that of course is in my opinion,and i could be wrong i suppose.
kind regards
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cuzzinjack
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Re: Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hi don,

I don't have the book any more, but I remember Sims wrote that the top of Bluff Springs mountain was a great pasture and on the north end there was a very large natural tank with abundant water. He thought it was a good place to keep horses without them getting stolen and just a few people could guard the place because there was only one narrow way in and one way out.

Sims was not a mining man, but he knew that with the combination of the Bluff Springs Mountain pasture and trail arrangement and the 40 acres of mesquite stumps that he and Bark found, there was a great mine somewhere in the vicinity. He and Jim Bark were true searchers, but because they didn't know either mining or geology their efforts were almost futile.

I am not as well read as you on the subject, but Ely gathered the stories that were being circulated at the time and put them in a book. These stories have been re-written by others countless times, and have been the basis for much more research. He even coined the phrase "The Lost Dutchman Mine" with the title of his book.

I like this note by the late Jim Hatt regarding Ely:

Over the years there has been a lot of effort spent on trying to discredit the validity of the information in Ely's book. Under the circumstances, we can only assume that it was done for self-serving purposes, to lead people away from the truth contained in it, or as a maneuver from someone in the Holmes camp, to discredit Ely's book, so the Holmes Manuscript would be accepted as the more true representation of Waltz's story? (or a little of both).

Someday I would like to hike to Bluff Springs Mountain. I've hiked from trailhead to trailhead, but passed on the west side of Weavers Needle.

cuzzinjack
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Re: Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello don and Thomas,

I did a little research myself the other day about Sims Ely and his book, “The Lost Dutchman Mine”. It turns out that the Sims Ely collection of papers and notes resides at ASU. There a 7 boxes of papers, news clippings, etc. regarding he and Jim Bark’s search. There is a lot from his stint as the manager of Boulder, NV as well. Here is the link to the resource:

http://www.azarchivesonline.org/xtf/vie ... view=print

There is an excellent short biography here about Sims Ely. Ely had been a newspaper editor, so he was no stranger to writing. It implies that he had help with the book from his son Northcutt. Northcutt was a graduate of Stanford Law School, and not your every-day numbskull.
This is what is in the boxes:

http://www.azarchivesonline.org/xtf/vie ... nt#series1

It would be interesting to know what are considered “oversized materials”.

This is a link to a speech Northcutt gave regarding his father and the book in 1988:

http://redlandsfortnightly.org/papers/duchmine.htm

Northcutt summed up the book to these few sentences!:

“The search for the Lost Dutchman has not ended. Literally scores of people have combed the Superstition Mountains during the last hundred years, looking for the Lost Dutchman, and many are still doing so.

My father's book asks a pertinent question: How is it that there is no credible report of the rediscovery of the Lost Dutchman mine since 1883, at least by white men, notwithstanding the fact that in earlier years Peralta's Mexicans had no trouble in finding it, in repeated expeditions; Waltz and Weiser were easily able to retrace their steps to the mine in 1871; the two soldiers saw it in 1880; and Dearing was able to find the mine in 1881 by following the directions given by the two soldiers?

The book suggests that Apache Jack supplied the answer. He said that in the early 80’s the Apaches, growing increasingly concerned about the incursions of would-be miners into their stronghold, the Superstitions, decided that gold mines were bad medicine.. And so, as Apache Jack told it, the women worked all one winter to fill the pit and cover over the entrance to the tunnel, so thoroughly that no one could ever find them, even from a distance of a few feet. Moreover, there was a sharp local earthquake in 1883, which may have completed the job”

I guess I’ve not said it strongly enough, and I’m saying it again, the location of the shaft and tunnel as viewed on Google Earth are shown here:

https://mollymarieprospect.com/blog/the ... reat-mine/

And the exact position by bearings to the top of the hill that the tunnel and shaft enter was given accidentally by a Peralta and is described here:

https://mollymarieprospect.com/blog/the ... ar-survey/

Most importantly, the geology that supports the great mine is described in great detail on this site.

My favorite part of Northcutt’s speech is the ending, and is as follows:

“I will leave you with the benediction given in Jim Bark's manuscript:

Hunting the Dutchman is not for old men, nor for old prospectors who sit on park benches in our Western towns - still filled with hope, exaggeration, specimens, and nicotine. They must step aside and let the younger generation hunt the Dutchman, chew their own tobacco, tell their own lies, and buy or steal their own specimens. Someone, some day, will fit the parts together more successfully than we have done. Good luck to him."

The parts HAVE been successfully put together. Amen.

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Potbelly Jim
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Re: Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by Potbelly Jim »

Cuzzin J,

Thomas organized and donated all that material to ASU, on behalf of the Ely Family, so their history wold be preserved and available to all. He would be a GREAT (The only?) person to ask about what went into the collection, and its history...Thomas was friends with Northcutt Ely for a long time.

I've been following your posts for many years on the Molly Marie. I appreciate your sharing of all that info. It occurred to me, that the covered shaft discovered at the Mammoth (Hand-timbered for about 40 feet, then someone filled it in with rocks, then covered the entrance with a huge slab of rock) is pretty close to the Molly Marie, and might be the event described by the Indians (filling in and covering up a mine).

I know you've found what looks like cart ruts, evidence of abnormally high mercury levels, etc. Have you ever found any shafts that appear to have been filled in?
Jim R.
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Re: Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Jim,

I had no idea of the history of the notes, and am glad that they are in a good place. I originally got involved with this post to defend Sims and his book, and am glad that in the process I rediscovered the speech by Northcutt. He reduced the whole Peralta mines / Lost Dutchman subject down to two short paragraphs. The guy was very smart.

Yes, there is evidence of a covered shaft. I have posted this before and several photos of its location (and the tunnel) are on this page:

https://mollymarieprospect.com/blog/the ... reat-mine/

As the legend goes, it is hidden well, and it is covered by adobe. They(the Apaches) had no choice because of the steep hillside. The adobe is amazingly erosion resistant and it is sintered with many kinds of fine rock to help camouflage it. In February a friend helped me do a seismic survey over the top of it. There is a big anomaly, and I am embarrassed to say that I have not processed the data completely yet. I believe the shaft was filled with boulders, and it looks like they were broken off a short cliff above and rolled down the hill.

There are some pictures of what the adobe looks like on the black basalt on the page.

I think someone tried to get into the workings about 50 years ago, and there's a shaft about 100 feet downhill from the covered shaft with a concrete collar. I believe they were unsuccessful because the ground was fractured up by caving caused from previous mining below.

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Potbelly Jim
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Re: Rendezvous and Ely's Book

Post by Potbelly Jim »

Thanks Jack, must've missed that part...get to diggin'!
Jim R.
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