Yellow Jackets

[pippinwhitepaws]

must have pe'od someone..i am locked out of the other site.
guess that is a good thing.

[zentull]

The site is all fine, except the forums. Maybe they are working on something?

[djui5]

Not sure but I can't get on them either.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Not sure why someone would assume that the technical problems on Peter's site were directed at them personally, but none of are able to get access to the Forums. I did manage to open Aurum's last post, but have no idea how I did it. Just started bouncing around, and it suddenly appeared. Couldn't do it again to save my life........Computers!:roll:

Joe

[zentull]

Just as soon as I tell Randy you are probably camping, you pop up!

I figure it's just the Yankees getting shut out of the playoffs........

Hopefully it's nothing serious, I hate when hackers or spam mess stuff up for everyone.

[critter]

Beneath the mirky waters of Rock Lake in Wisconsin lies a complex of rock structures, the largest of which resembles a delta pyramid that is larger than the Great Pyramid of the Giza Plateau and can be clearly seen from above. Who built these structures and why were they submerged beneath the man-made waters of Rock Lake prior to the most recent European colonisation? The consensus among archaeologists is that we simply don't even know if the structures are man-made. The Native Americans of the region, however, claim that the structures are the remains of the ancient city of Tyranena, which was built by pale-skinned "strangers" who flooded the city at a time of global upheaval and then migrated to the South. Indeed, Bronze Age artifacts have been found and documented (mostly by amateurs) in and around the Great Lakes region as well as Mesoamerica. Today, just a few miles east of Rock Lake along the Rock River, lies the pyramids of Aztalan, which archaeologists claim was built by colonists from further south who may have been culture-bearers from mesoamerican civilizations.

The moral: The deeper one digs into the mystery of ancient civilizations the more mirky the waters become.

Critter

[zentull]

To the far south/east is a strange place of brick and Ivy. The people there are rumoured to drink fermented beverages and travel on trains that ride high in the air.

Actually thats at Aztalan Park...right? Pretty strange little town.

[critter]

Hey, I'm just a kid who found an astrolabe, don't blame me for your narrow-mindedness.

Have another,

Critter

[zentull]

Uh okay.......

We used to go up there when I was a wee one. It's one of those indian mound places or something. Actually it's a pretty cool place. The town is strange, they got the whole pyramid thing going around there, kind of like the UFO thing by Roswell.

Don't know the specifics, but I been there. I thought it was Native American stuff, including the pyramids?

[pippinwhitepaws]

wow, again i have no clue what is going on...i guess ignorance is bliss.

[zentull]

Pippin,

Up in Wisconsin there is a state park called Azatalan or something. It has those Native American burial mounds and stuff. A few miles away is Rock lake. There are these pyramid shaped things under the water. You can see them when you are out on a boat. I don't know how many there are, but the local town has a pyramid thing going on because of them. The town square is like a pyramid shape.

I am sure there is a website or 2 about it. I am not sure about what it has to do with anything other than they are pyramids. They are not that big ( like eygytian pyramids)and if I remember it looked like stones piled up, so maybe a burial site?

Critter probably knows more or a site you could find more info from.

I just think it was neat that someone knew about that place. I thought it was a local thing.

[pippinwhitepaws]

thanks...i will look it up

[critter]

That's a negative on Aztalan being built by the Woodland Native Americans of the area. I don't think any archaeologist has ever made that claim. It is associated with the "Moundbuilder" culture that existed around the Midwest and suddenly disappeared around the same time the Maya disappeared in Mesoamerica. Among traditional archaeological circles it is considered heresy to suggest that ancient people separated by thousands of miles were able to interact in any way, but do some research and decide for yourself. Also to clarify, the main pyramid under Rock Lake is indeed larger than the Great Pyramid at the Giza Plateau, although it resembles the pyramids of mesoamerica with the flat top than the Egyptian ones.

It is interesting how people so confidently eschew the notion of Bronze Age civilisations without the faintest clue as to the relevant archaeological premise of the age. You see, the Bronze Age was built of copper, lots and lots and tonnes and tonnes of copper. The problem is that there are simply not any significant copper deposits in or around Europe, certainly not to the extent required to produce the technological advances seen during the Bronze Age. Bronze Age technology was so advanced that it was not eclipsed again my civilization until the Industrial Revolution. After the Bronze Age civilizations collapsed (during a very short period around 1200 BC) human civilization had to resort to inferior metallic alloys like Iron, which is very malleable and weak compared to Bronze. Bronze Age metalsmiths certainly used Iron, as well as Aluminium, Silicon, and a host of other alloys not commonly used in the Iron Age. In fact, Aluminium was so difficult for Iron Age metallurgists to master that it was considered more precious than Gold and indeed was used in the production of crowns for monarchs. In any event, there remains a great mystery about the Bronze Age: Where did the copper come from?

Anyone?

Critter

[Cubfan64]

http://www.jstor.org/pss/196590

[critter]

Good Work, Cubfan! Indeed, billions of tonnes of copper was removed from Michigan's copper deposits prior to the most recent European colonisation. We know that the Native Americans didn't use copper in these amounts so here's the next question: Who did?

Critter

[critter]

Perhaps I should also mention that Michigan's copper deposits are not only the world's largest, but also the most pure. Today, however, most of the copper that is mined comes from the deposits found in Chile, which are also pretty large and pure, and are also not in or around Europe, which has very small and impure deposits.

Critter

[Cubfan64]

I read something awhile back regarding the direction I think you're leading to Critter, so I won't "cheat" and I'll let someone else come up with the answer.

I should however read up on it all a little more - one of the things I've often wondered about is how it was scientifically determined how much copper had been removed from the deposits in upper Michigan in "ancient" times. There must be a way it was determined, I just wonder how much error could be in that determination.

By the way, I knew the answer not because I've read about it, but because I was born in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, lived in the area and saw loads of that native raw copper.

As an aside, I had an argument with an "expert" on TreasureNet awhile back who claimed there were NO known deposits of native copper in North America.

[pippinwhitepaws]

self proclaimed "experts" are amusing, especially when they are so adamantly incorrect on a topic.

how did you get into JSTOR cubbie?

[critter]

Ah, a Yooper are you? I'm also not certain about how the amount of copper taken from the area was arrived at, but I do know that even the most puritan, conservative archaeologists tend to agree that it was extensive and ancient. I also know that early explorers to the area found the mining works largely intact as though whoever it was simply dropped tools and got out of there.

I did quite a bit of work in the Keweenaw Peninsula about 12 years ago, even won an award for the work, although mine was metallurgical in nature, and not archaeological. Lots of beautiful, chatoyant greenstones and agates there as well.

Basically my point is that the notion of trans-Atlantic Bronze Age civilization i.e. "Atlantis" is not simply relegated to a reference made by Plato several hundred years after the Bronze Age collapsed amid major global cataclysm, but rather the archaeological evidence could be interpreted to suggest the possibility as well. Admittedly, most of the archaeological evidence has been found by amateurs who are often dismissed by practicing archaeologists out of hand as not relevant to a particular archaeological provenance. Once again, however, we get into this chicken and egg argument where you can argue that the reason there isn't a provenance is because the establishment refuses to acknowledge any evidence contrary to the established paradigms. However, there is archaeological evidence that has been found by practicing archaeologists, although again these are quickly dismissed as anomalous and the archaeologists labeled as rogues. Perhaps the most compelling is the discovery of "ox hide ingots", a common unit of Bronze Age trade, on both sides of the Atlantic. Indeed, the evidence seems to mount up every day.

By far the most comprehensive work on the subject has been done by one of these rogue archaeologists, a guy by the name of Frank Joseph who has done quite a bit of underwater research in Rock Lake as well as on both sides of the Atlantic. For those interested in learning more, he has a number of books on the subject, "The Pyramids of Rock Lake" and "Atlantis in Wisconsin" just to name two.

[Cubfan64]

self proclaimed "experts" are amusing, especially when they are so adamantly incorrect on a topic.

how did you get into JSTOR cubbie?

The guy actually seemed to be really intelligent on a number of interesting subjects, but for some reason was adamant that there was NO native copper in upper Michigan. I think I typed "native copper michigan" into google or something like that and simply copied the first several links that came up and posted them as evidence to the contrary and if I recall, he never did respond to that but moved on to a different subject

As far as JSTOR goes, I'm lucky enough to have a coworker working on his PhD and as a student of a university, he is able to access alot of journal articles and such online through the university. He's kind enough to look up articles for me and print them out when he has a chance

[Cubfan64]

Ah, a Yooper are you? I'm also not certain about how the amount of copper taken from the area was arrived at, but I do know that even the most puritan, conservative archaeologists tend to agree that it was extensive and ancient. I also know that early explorers to the area found the mining works largely intact as though whoever it was simply dropped tools and got out of there.

I did quite a bit of work in the Keweenaw Peninsula about 12 years ago, even won an award for the work, although mine was metallurgical in nature, and not archaeological. Lots of beautiful, chatoyant greenstones and agates there as well.

Basically my point is that the notion of trans-Atlantic Bronze Age civilization i.e. "Atlantis" is not simply relegated to a reference made by Plato several hundred years after the Bronze Age collapsed amid major global cataclysm, but rather the archaeological evidence could be interpreted to suggest the possibility as well. Admittedly, most of the archaeological evidence has been found by amateurs who are often dismissed by practicing archaeologists out of hand as not relevant to a particular archaeological provenance. Once again, however, we get into this chicken and egg argument where you can argue that the reason there isn't a provenance is because the establishment refuses to acknowledge any evidence contrary to the established paradigms. However, there is archaeological evidence that has been found by practicing archaeologists, although again these are quickly dismissed as anomalous and the archaeologists labeled as rogues. Perhaps the most compelling is the discovery of "ox hide ingots", a common unit of Bronze Age trade, on both sides of the Atlantic. Indeed, the evidence seems to mount up every day.

By far the most comprehensive work on the subject has been done by one of these rogue archaeologists, a guy by the name of Frank Joseph who has done quite a bit of underwater research in Rock Lake as well as on both sides of the Atlantic. For those interested in learning more, he has a number of books on the subject, "The Pyramids of Rock Lake" and "Atlantis in Wisconsin" just to name two.

I like the idea of a source like the early explorers - that's probably about as close as one can get to a firsthand report of that early area except for Native American stories handed down.

I'll take a photo of the copper spearhead I have and post it here this weekend. My great great aunt and uncle lived in a very old farmhouse in Wisconsin and he used to find lots of arrowheads, axe heads, etc... in the farm field when he was plowing. He just dumped them all in bushel barrels when he found them. One day, my aunt found this copper spearhead in the garden where she was planting things and added it to the pile.

After they both passed away, my grandfather allowed me to take 1 thing out of the bushel baskets to keep and I chose the 1 copper spearhead. The rest was supposed to be sold along with everything else at auction, so I showed up to bid on some of them, but evidently another family member who knew about them must have snuck into the barn and took all the bushel baskets before the auctioneer got there to list everything because they were nowhere to be found.

I didn't take the spearhead for any monetary reason or anything - I wouldn't sell it for anything. It has too many memories of my great great aunt and uncle and all the fun days I had wandering around their farm while in high school and looking at all the neat things they had found.

[critter]

Interesting stuff, Cubfan. Just out of curiosity, where exactly was your aunt and uncle's farm? That projectile point is obviously the odd one of the bushel. Of course copper points were commonly traded in early European contact, but who knows, it could be of Native American manufacture (they did work the native ores a bit), or perhaps even older. I look forward to having a look.

Thanks for that,

Critter

[Cubfan64]

Interesting stuff, Cubfan. Just out of curiosity, where exactly was your aunt and uncle's farm? That projectile point is obviously the odd one of the bushel. Of course copper points were commonly traded in early European contact, but who knows, it could be of Native American manufacture (they did work the native ores a bit), or perhaps even older. I look forward to having a look.

Thanks for that,

Critter

Found an old photo I took of it. I work in a laboratory and had one of my coworkers check it out using an electron microscope to tell me whether it was definitely copper (I was about 99% sure anyways).

I've never taken it to an expert to find anything out about it, but have asked some collectors and they don't think it's true "copper culture" (meaning 3000BC etc...). The guess was somewhere around 1100AD or so but still a nice item in excellent condition.

If you look closely near the tip you'll see some of the green patina still on it.

Their farm is (or rather WAS) in Winnebago County. Wisconsin is actually pretty high up on the list of states where copper points and artifacts are found - as you said, probably mostly by trade, although I believe northern WI also has copper (not sure if it's native/raw or ore though).

Oh, by the way the reason I said "WAS" is because after they passed away, the inheritors sold all of the farmland off in parcels and it's all been developed into duplexes. The only thing left from the old farm is the original home as it's a historic landmark because of it's age and stone construction (I think all the walls including interior ones were 2-3 feet thick). The old gravel country road that I used to drive to their farm is now paved and where the old woods was where I used to go hunting and digging through the old "garbage dump" that was out there was completely destroyed to make way for a new 4 lane highway.

To this day I have a difficult time driving over it, looking out there and seeing duplexes where the cornfield used to be.

Sometimes I really despise "progress."

[/img]

[critter]

Holy shit, Cubfan, that EDS signature is exactly the type that is found in these Bronze Age artifacts that I've been describing. Notice the Aluminium and Silicon signatures also Sulphur, those are unmistakably Bronze Age technology. That is absolutely amazing, the Potassium, Calcium, and Chlorine are fluxing elements. That is actually a Bronze, not copper, but an alloy of copper, which is by definition Bronze, although yours doesn't appear to be heavily alloyed. Also the shape is not characteristic of Native American cultures, but rather Bronze Age ones. You should contact Frank Joseph with that just to get into the record. I have a similar EDS of the astrolabe I found, but it is more heavily alloyed, in fact it is by definition what is called an Aluminium Bronze. It also has a pure Nickel coating, the type that is only possible through electro-plating.

Excellent work!

Critter

[/img]

[critter]

Oh, I find your reference to the "copper culture" interesting as well. That is archaeological communities explanation for the mining activity in the UP and all of these anomalous artifacts. You see, we're supposed to believe that a Native American culture developed to utilise the copper deposits, developed a relatively sophisticated metallurgical technology around the same time as the Bronze Age in Europe and then suddenly forgot all of that around 1200 BC (same time as the Bronze Age collapse) and never again used the mineral in the same way or to the same extent. It is a dubious argument to say the least, but one that the archaeologists use to explain the phenomenon non the less.

Thanks again!

Critter